New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

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New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Aug 17th, '20, 20:13

Making this a sticky in all forums so no one miss reading it.

1. Do you think D-Addicts needs new active staff?

2. Go over all rules, update and simplify them

For Example
More recently I've seen edited / transcribed subtitles based on hardsubs from old no longer active (impossible to reach) fansubbers. What about it? Treat them the same a transcribed subtitles? Don't post unless you have permssion from the original subber, and if you don't, don't post at all? Or don't post at all?

Or the part when someone can continue subbing a drama. It could be written in a clearer way.

3. New theme / layout.

I've tried to bring up the above things to staff.

@Ruroshin @MoerkJ @amrayu @Candylemon @UsagiYojimbo

I either get no, or very few answers. It's a little bit frustrating!
Nothing is done, things are unclear, and start to spin out of control.

Like me, UsagiYojimbo thinks this should be dealt with.
After sending a PM directly to Ruroshin I get the answer "I don't think we need more staff at the moment."

Ongoing Poll
How much do you think transcribed fansubs should be edited

Closed Polls
When to mark a topic as dropped

About transcribing inactive fansubs

Update 2020-Oct-08
We are currently in the process of discussing and updating the rules. None of the poll results will take effect until new rules have been announced.

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Re: New active staff and some other things

Post by Gabrielmpf » Aug 20th, '20, 15:53

Here's what I think:

1 - Yes. Moderating a forum this size should be the work of more than one person. To my knowledge, it's only Keiko now.

2 - Hell yes.

It's no secret that I'm strongly against hardsubbing. I think it's hypocritical to try and protect one's work by using unlicensed raws. So any attempt to transcribe them to soft subs is very welcome and the rules should simplify that process. As long as the original credits are kept, why not? We have more and more HD content nowadays, so soft subs can easily be retimed to better quality videos.

Continue subbing a drama... Another rule that should be simplified. If any project is left abandoned by the original subber for more than 6 months without any update, it should be automatically marked as dropped, even if the subber is logged in regularly, which I've seen on several occasions. If they have time to come to the forum, they should have 5 minutes to update the status and say clearly if it's still on.

One thing that I rarely see anyone mention is the quality of subs. Maybe for fear of being called arrogant or ungrateful. We all know that there are very good subbers out there, but we also know that there are bad ones. In my opinion, someone that is not good at English has no business doing English subs. I know some French, but I'm far from fluent, so I would never translate a drama to French. Why should I be grateful for mediocre subs and think it's better than nothing? It's distracting to watch and an insult to the people, like myself, that actually make an effort to do quality subs. So, there should be some guidelines or more strict rules to have new subbers post in the forum. Maybe using the "report" button to inform the moderators of a bad sub. But we should have some way to filter the good subs from bad ones... How about a rating system? Or using the already fansubber banner to indicate a "certified" subber.

3 - Maybe, but I don't have a need for it. I think the current one is perfectly fine.

Sorry I offended anyone, but these things need to be discussed. Fansubbing is a hobby, but it should be done right.

Happy subbing!
Gabriel

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Re: New active staff and some other things

Post by jefftiger » Aug 20th, '20, 17:52

In response to #1, yes, there should be more moderators. There used to be others, but they've apparently lost interest or drifted away, as often happens at fan-supported sites.

I'm troubled with the hardsub issue. To transcribe and improve subtitles that an active fansubber has made available as hardsubs, without his/her approval, is rude and inappropriate in my view. Of course, anyone may transcribe or OCR subs for their personal use. But, I don't believe that d-addicts should allow those subs to be posted here without the original subber's explicit concurrence (assuming that the subber can be easily contacted). The recent posting of "improved" BG2 subs is a terrible insult to the original subber, who must have her reasons for not providing softsubs publicly.

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Re: New active staff and some other things

Post by Gabrielmpf » Aug 20th, '20, 18:15

jefftiger wrote: Aug 20th, '20, 17:52 In response to #1, yes, there should be more moderators. There used to be others, but they've apparently lost interest or drifted away, as often happens at fan-supported sites.

I'm troubled with the hardsub issue. To transcribe and improve subtitles that an active fansubber has made available as hardsubs, without his/her approval, is rude and inappropriate in my view. Of course, anyone may transcribe or OCR subs for their personal use. But, I don't believe that d-addicts should allow those subs to be posted here without the original subber's explicit concurrence (assuming that the subber can be easily contacted). The recent posting of "improved" BG2 subs is a terrible insult to the original subber, who must have her reasons for not providing softsubs publicly.
I don't agree. I think there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to use hardsubs, and as I stated above, I think it's highly hypocritical to use illegally obtained raws to protect their work. Did they ask permission of the TV channel to use that raw? How can they justify this practice? Again, as long as the original credits are kept intact, I don't see why it's inappropriate. Inappropriate is the use of unlicensed raws and distribute them as their own.

I'm sorry, but I can't defend hardsubs. It's not right, no matter how you look at it. If they really want to protect their work, let them do it with a paywall.

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Re: New active staff and some other things

Post by jefftiger » Aug 20th, '20, 18:43

I definitely understand your viewpoint with respect to hardsubs and the general hypocracy involved. I agree with you in the instance of old hardsubbed files where the original subtitler is long gone from the scene. But, I worry greatly of the consequences if d-addicts provides a venue for transcribed/OCRed/improved softsubs derived from hardsubs done by current subtitlers. The fansubbers have their own views and are understandably upset to see their work stolen by streaming sites and marketed as their own work. Others, like you, understand that this happens and it's essentially impossible to solve given a global internet with differing piracy and fair-use rules from country to country. So you and others live with your work being pirated. I'm glad that this doesn't cause you to give up in disgust!

My concern is that those who choose to provide hardsubs (and maybe softsubs behind a paywall) would likely react very negatively to this site hosting softsubs derived from their work without their permission.

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Re: New active staff and some other things

Post by Gabrielmpf » Aug 21st, '20, 01:05

My main reason for hating hardsubs has to do with video quality. A hardsubbed drama is usually synonym with bad quality video. Even the current hardsubbers, for example Blitz and Irozuku, use these low quality files to distribute their work and people who like good quality video can't enjoy these dramas to the fullest. But, at least those offer the option to get softsubs from their Patreon, and I'm happy to contribute to their work if I can get softsubs. I'm currently a patron of Irozuku and I've been a patron of Blitz before.

The problem is when I can't get that option, like the subs for BG season 2. So, if me and many others want to enjoy the latest season of BG at 1080p, the only option is to either OCR the current subs or do it from scratch. Many prefer the latter option, so I can't condemn them for that. Does the original subber still want to protect their work at all costs? Fine, give me a hardsubbed file properly encoded to 1080p and I can overlook the hypocrisy. After all, aren't we all using illegally obtained raws and sharing them on torrent sites. Some use them just to watch and enjoy dramas, others use them to naively protect something that can't stay protected no matter how they try.

The solution to this? They should just forget about protecting their work and do the subs simply for sharing with fans. Because, once you publish your work in the Internet it's not protected anymore. If most subbers worried about this problem, we probably wouldn't have many left. We have to ask ourselves, why are we doing this? Certainly not to make a living.

This is a hot topic and probably not what Keiko was expecting from the original post. It's a gray area, and saying what's right and what's wrong seems pointless. The problem is that there's no standard rules when it comes to subbing and many subbers are scattered here and there, so it's difficult to create an environment where everyone is happy and follows the rules.

On a side note: I've seen my subs appear on streaming sites, and from what I see, they keep the credits intact. Honestly, I'm fine with that. More people will watch dramas with my subs and I've even had people messaging me who came from those streaming sites and even donating to my Ko-Fi page. Maybe they're changing and saw that removing credits from subs wouldn't benefit anyone in the long run. I don't know... Bottom line is, as long as the original credits are kept, I don't see any reason for not allowing softsubs extracted from hardsubs.

Sorry for spamming the topic, Keiko. No more replies from me for the time being :P

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Re: New active staff, layout, and rules

Post by Keiko1981 » Aug 21st, '20, 03:05

@jefftiger @Gabrielmpf Following the conversation to see what others have to say.

@Ruroshin @MoerkJ @amrayu What I would like to see.

4 new active moderators
1. Have been active here for some time and know how things work.
Alternatively been active in any other Asian dramas community.
2. Of which 2 are fansubbers. Good to have, to see things from fansubbers' perspective.
3. Have some basic HTML knowledge. Needed when updating the subtitles index.

After the new staff have joined, go over all forum rules and discuss what they should be. Update and simplify them.

A new layout / theme is not a must, but would be bonus.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by narai225 » Aug 21st, '20, 04:05

As I see it...
1. I think there are issues (such as hardsubs, compensation, how subtitles are made, and why we sub) that need to be addressed to improve d-addicts and increase participation.
That does not seem to be happening lately, in some organized fashion. It's difficult to moderate when there aren't clear rules.

The "why we sub" is of particular importance, as this is what potential fansubbers will see when considering whether to participate. Negative discussion does not give a good impression.

Issues such as these are better resolved by a smaller group of members, who can get input from members and write tentative rules that are easier to discuss with all members.

2. Definitely. Some here, some there, many way outdated.

3. I don't have any issues with the current format. But any issues should be brought up and discussed.

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Re: New active staff and some other things

Post by nuve » Aug 21st, '20, 20:40

Gabrielmpf wrote: Aug 20th, '20, 15:53 One thing that I rarely see anyone mention is the quality of subs. Maybe for fear of being called arrogant or ungrateful. We all know that there are very good subbers out there, but we also know that there are bad ones. In my opinion, someone that is not good at English has no business doing English subs. I know some French, but I'm far from fluent, so I would never translate a drama to French. Why should I be grateful for mediocre subs and think it's better than nothing? It's distracting to watch and an insult to the people, like myself, that actually make an effort to do quality subs. So, there should be some guidelines or more strict rules to have new subbers post in the forum. Maybe using the "report" button to inform the moderators of a bad sub. But we should have some way to filter the good subs from bad ones... How about a rating system? Or using the already fansubber banner to indicate a "certified" subber.
aside of, let's say bad grammar, what kind of criterions should/could decide what is "bad" or "good"?
I think it's difficult to judge subs since they depend on person who made them. so it's more of 'personal trait', since it's the way of expressing oneself. again, not speaking about grammar.

though, i'm the last one to say anything about this....

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Aug 21st, '20, 21:10

@Gabrielmpf About the quality of subs. I would only like to add a rule for no machine translations. It would be hard to know, and take time to judge what subs are considered "good" or "bad". And subbers would feel singled out. I just wouldn't want to have to say "Sorry, you're subs isn't good enough, you can't post them." Just no... It would be like opening up a can of worms. Others have the option of subbing the same drama if they want, and if several versions are available, then the viewers can decide which one to use.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Madoka » Aug 21st, '20, 22:05

Many, many years ago, there was a new subber whose English could have been better. There was much discussion here about the quality of the subs, some of it rude. The subber was so embarrassed that they left DA and opened up a LJ. This subber continued to sub and improved their English to the point that the subs were quite good. Then the people here at DA complained that those good subs were behind a locked community. I'm not saying who's right or wrong in this whole affair, just that you reap what you sow.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by soulmuja » Aug 23rd, '20, 12:27

1. we need more active staffs for forum. for example, i had problem with videosub finder but I didn't find answer. more staffs may help users. Keiko1981 is very helpful but she needs more help from others.

2. I agree with Gabrielmpf. i needed subtitle for old movies. i found Hardsub version for them but all links removed!! i found some fansubs that lost links and They were disappointed. All their efforts were wasted.
we have more versions for movies and dramas like bluray, web Dl, DVDRip, HDTV and .... . it's easy to resync soft subs for different videos by size or quality or resolution.
and more: if you are Non English language, you have more troubles. you need to find translator to translate English subtitles to your language. if Someone accepted your request, he/she needs softsub not Hardsub.
original credits must kept for fansubs, That’s so true.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by narai225 » Aug 23rd, '20, 20:24

soulmuja wrote: Aug 23rd, '20, 12:27 1. we need more active staffs for forum. for example, i had problem with videosub finder but I didn't find answer. more staffs may help users. Keiko1981 is very helpful but she needs more help from others.
There is the Fansubbing forum Fansubbing that could be used for "How to" do subtitles information and instruction. But it seems to be rarely used.
It might be helpful to move this, or a link to it, to the main Subtitles page. I check that most often. D-Addicts page is checked less often, I expect.

This shouldn't really a moderator's responsibility.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by narai225 » Aug 23rd, '20, 20:38

Madoka wrote: Aug 21st, '20, 22:05 Many, many years ago, there was a new subber whose English could have been better. There was much discussion here about the quality of the subs, some of it rude. The subber was so embarrassed that they left DA and opened up a LJ. This subber continued to sub and improved their English to the point that the subs were quite good. Then the people here at DA complained that those good subs were behind a locked community. I'm not saying who's right or wrong in this whole affair, just that you reap what you sow.
Regarding the English language quality of translated subtitles, I have seen posts in the past where the fansubber stated that English was not their native language. This should be sufficient so that someone doesn't expect perfect English.
Also for one series I offered to proofread their English before releasing the subs. This worked quite well. I did not get involved with the actual translation (except for a few lines where the meaning wasn't clear), just improve grammar and spelling.

Also, doing the proofreading inline avoids the problem of someone "improving" existing subs.

A request in the announcement or fansubbing forum could be used to find someone for proofreading.

Of course, if the translation itself is poor, that is another matter. Or the English is so poor, as in old Chinese/English sub DVDs.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by kuronekochan » Sep 13th, '20, 16:05

1. Yes more is better
2. About transcriptions I think that if the fansubs not exist anymore is ok

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Sep 13th, '20, 23:28

Two polls have been created regarding the rules to see what the community thinks. Both of them running for 2 weeks.

When to mark a topic as dropped

About transcribing inactive fansubs

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by jefftiger » Sep 14th, '20, 00:10

On the transcribing of inactive fansubs poll question, I'm assuming "inactive" means someone who is long-gone from the scene where it's no longer possible to get their concurrence, as opposed to someone who (for whatever reason) posts their hardsubs on their own sites. I don't think it's a good idea to create bad feelings by posting transcribed hardsubs without someone's concurrence assuming that there still active somewhere on the web.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Sep 14th, '20, 00:26

jefftiger wrote: Sep 14th, '20, 00:10 On the transcribing of inactive fansubs poll question, I'm assuming "inactive" means someone who is long-gone from the scene where it's no longer possible to get their concurrence, as opposed to someone who (for whatever reason) posts their hardsubs on their own sites. I don't think it's a good idea to create bad feelings by posting transcribed hardsubs without someone's concurrence assuming that there still active somewhere on the web.
"inactive" means someone who is long-gone from the scene where it's no longer possible to get their concurrence.

Yes.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by SusieQ » Sep 14th, '20, 06:59

Keiko1981 wrote: Sep 14th, '20, 00:26
jefftiger wrote: Sep 14th, '20, 00:10 On the transcribing of inactive fansubs poll question, I'm assuming "inactive" means someone who is long-gone from the scene where it's no longer possible to get their concurrence, as opposed to someone who (for whatever reason) posts their hardsubs on their own sites. I don't think it's a good idea to create bad feelings by posting transcribed hardsubs without someone's concurrence assuming that there still active somewhere on the web.
"inactive" means someone who is long-gone from the scene where it's no longer possible to get their concurrence.

Yes.
But serious steps must be taken to find them. I had no idea until today that Kamui6, founder of now defunct group Japan-TV, had logged in to D-A this year, let alone this decade, until I scoured my memory (and by memory I mean external hard drive) for the group's name and the consulted Wayback Machine to visit their long-gone website to find their former staffs' names.

:crazy: Yikes I feel so old! I remember their website so well! So many completed projects! :notworthy:

Anyway, would we be allowed to make and post a transcription for a drama that already has soft subs on D-A (but not by the hard subber)?

Because it just so happens my all-time favourite jdrama was hardsubbed by Japan-TV and if I can get permission, it would probably be the one and only time I'd work on something like this. Although... I'm embarrassed to admit which drama it is. :wub:

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Sep 14th, '20, 07:21

SusieQ wrote: Sep 14th, '20, 06:59 Anyway, would we be allowed to make and post a transcription for a drama that already has soft subs on D-A (but not by the hard subber)?
Let's wait and see what the end result is...

If I understand your question right... As with the current rules, I think it should be okay for several people to work on the same drama.

If someone were to transcribe a fansub, then the one transcribing would have to be sure (or as sure as they can be) that the original fansubber is no longer active.

The original fansubber can always request for transcribed subtitles to be removed, if they so wish.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Rick » Sep 15th, '20, 02:01

I'm relaxed about poor English in subs by a native speaker of the original language, as long it's understandable, the subber has done us a service by telling us what the original means, which is the most important thing, and it's great to get that from a native point of view. Then maybe someone could offer to tidy up the English.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by SusieQ » Sep 15th, '20, 05:09

Keiko1981 wrote: Sep 14th, '20, 07:21 If someone were to transcribe a fansub, then the one transcribing would have to be sure (or as sure as they can be) that the original fansubber is no longer active.

The original fansubber can always request for transcribed subtitles to be removed, if they so wish.

So, is it currently okay to post transcriptions if the fansubber gives permission?

Actually, I think you did (Orange Days), Keiko. So I\m thinking I should just PM the subber and see if I get a response.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Sep 15th, '20, 05:17

SusieQ wrote: Sep 15th, '20, 05:09 So, is it currently okay to post transcriptions if the fansubber gives permission?
Please don't post anything at the moment, unless you get permission from the original subber. The polls are still ongoing, and the rules have not been updated.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Keiko1981 » Sep 28th, '20, 09:39

Most you thought that subbing projects should be marked as dropped after 3 months of not updating

Update meaning any of the following

* Posting new subtitles
* Posting edited version(s) of previous released subs
* Subtitles status updates

A majority of you voted for transcribing fansubs of no longer active groups.

I've made a follow-up poll where you can vote on How much transcribed fansubs should be edited

No changes of the rules will be made until this one is over.

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Re: New active staff, forum rules, and new layout

Post by Nabbit » Oct 11th, '20, 18:33

I missed this whole discussion due not being on the forum as much recently, but I'm so glad to see @Rick and @mottofreaky become moderators. Their amazing work as subbers and as part of the community has set a high watermark for this forum. Thanks always to @Keiko1981 also for all of your incredible work.

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