soft subs vs hard subs - which do you prefer

Ethlenn · Post by **Ethlenn** » Feb 7th, '10, 15:24

Soft subs. I can adjust them and not to bother if somebody's favorite color is pink, so the letters are pink, grrr...

caramelchampagne · Post by **caramelchampagne** » Feb 7th, '10, 15:54

soft sub coz i can contol the font size and color

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Feb 7th, '10, 16:24

It depends.

Often times, the softsubs come out long before the hardsubs, and if I'm watching a series, I don't want to have to wait forever.

However...

Usually, the quality of end product is better with hardsubs. It's been my experience that there are a lot of people who want to try their hand at subbing. The quality of their subs starts out mediocre and goes downhill from there. By the time you get to the end of the series (assuming they DO finish the series), the subs are barely decipherable. These are invariably soft subs.

Groups who go to the trouble of hardsubbing generally take more pride and put more effort into the quality of their product.

I'm not saying for a moment that everyone who only puts out softsubs does a lousy job. I'm just saying that I've never been disappointed with a hardsubbed drama that I watched.

Also, when you're watching a hardsub, you're usually seeing signs where they should be, and in an appropriate font and color. The signs aren't bunched in with the spoken dialog at the bottom. Yes, you can do much of the same using .ass files for your softsubs, but you don't have the special fonts that the subbers were looking at.

Zash · Post by **Zash** » Sep 29th, '11, 04:13

In my opinion:

For Drama's that we watch, softsubs really have an advantage because there are a few fansubs group that we can choose from.
Most of the time, there is only one source where we get the drama's like this forum.
And we somehow always have one or two fansubs to choose from.
So we basically don't have that many choices.
If you go hardsubs, the file size would be larger than of the one using softsubs.
If you go softsubs, you can have the opportunity to edit typographical errors and re-time the timing errors of delayed subs.

For Anime's that we watch, there is a large variety of fansubs group to choose from.
I prefer hardsubs because of the eye candy that people are saying in this thread. They contain karaoke which I like and also the subs for signboards in the show. For example, there is a school and the name of the school is written in japanese, there is also a subtitle for that.
You can go softsubs because they literally have a small file size. Yes you can edit the typographical errors but there's a rare chance of getting one.
I prefer hardsubs because I keep the anime's that I consider good for me and the quality with hardsubs is good.

Before downloading any anime there exist a website that compares the fansubs http://www.ji-hi.net/
Or you can go to http://myanimelist.net/ then check the anime and see the ratings of the fansubs groups that do subtitles for that anime.

I am a fan of DOWNTOWN (a show in Japan), which I have already downloaded all the Batsu Game series. The subs that are used in the files that I have downloaded are of the file type ".ass"
I think it offers the feature that the subtitles can be colored.

Concerning the variety of video players that we use:
Obviously, one would not go for hardsubs because the player that he/she uses does not follow the formatting used in those subtitles.
And people who uses video players that adapt the styles in the subs and love the quality of hardsubs would definitely go hardsubs.

For people who wants the subs to have option of turning them off or on, obviously they would go for softsubs.
I personally prefer hardsubs because I prefer the subs turned on because even if I understand what they are saying, sometimes it's just that the characters in the show speak to fast for me to understand what they are saying.

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Sep 29th, '11, 09:18

Zash wrote:If you go hardsubs, the file size would be larger than of the one using softsubs.

Why is that? I work with Heiwa Fansubs, and our hardsubs are always smaller than the original raws. Look at anything we've done, such as Magerarenai Onna. The final encoded softsubs are typically 1/3 smaller than the raws.

«minah» · Post by **«minah»** » Sep 29th, '11, 14:08

...doesn't matter because I'm grateful it has any subs... ^^ (I wish they had that as an option....)

Zash · Post by **Zash** » Oct 1st, '11, 12:08

ssih wrote:Why is that? I work with Heiwa Fansubs, and our hardsubs are always smaller than the original raws. Look at anything we've done, such as Magerarenai Onna. The final encoded softsubs are typically 1/3 smaller than the raws.

I have no technical explanation why is that. Just have observed it with the anime's that I have downloaded, maybe because of the karaoke they added and other stuff that people call eye candy made the file size bigger than the raw version file size.

What I think and my opinion why you have smaller file size than the raw video is maybe the video quality of the raw was reduced when published it with the hardsubs. The video quality of the subbed releases might not be as good as the raw.

lollercopter · Post by **lollercopter** » Oct 1st, '11, 12:30

I can't remember the last time I've seen hardsubs. There's no reason to use them anymore since softsubs can do just about everything hardsubs can.

olympie · Post by **olympie** » Oct 1st, '11, 12:44

Zash wrote:
ssih wrote:Why is that? I work with Heiwa Fansubs, and our hardsubs are always smaller than the original raws. Look at anything we've done, such as Magerarenai Onna. The final encoded softsubs are typically 1/3 smaller than the raws.
I have no technical explanation why is that. Just have observed it with the anime's that I have downloaded, maybe because of the karaoke they added and other stuff that people call eye candy made the file size bigger than the raw version file size.

For the animes they use transport stream raws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_transport_stream) who are about 3-4gb/ episode, they don't use raws you found on nyatorrent ect.. ^^

ImL0st · Post by **ImL0st** » Oct 1st, '11, 13:59

Zash wrote:
ssih wrote:Why is that? I work with Heiwa Fansubs, and our hardsubs are always smaller than the original raws. Look at anything we've done, such as Magerarenai Onna. The final encoded softsubs are typically 1/3 smaller than the raws.
I have no technical explanation why is that. Just have observed it with the anime's that I have downloaded, maybe because of the karaoke they added and other stuff that people call eye candy made the file size bigger than the raw version file size.

What I think and my opinion why you have smaller file size than the raw video is maybe the video quality of the raw was reduced when published it with the hardsubs. The video quality of the subbed releases might not be as good as the raw.

Quality is 1 and the second reason I prefer soft subs is that I can have control of the subs' text size--most hard-subbed vids come with very small text size which get even smaller (tiny, to be exact) when I convert the videos for playing on portable devices such as my iphone and psp.

Zash · Post by **Zash** » Oct 1st, '11, 20:06

lollercopter wrote:I can't remember the last time I've seen hardsubs. There's no reason to use them anymore since softsubs can do just about everything hardsubs can.

Then make a softsub with karaoke. I like the karaoke feature of the hardsubs 'cause I like to sing.

ImL0st wrote:Quality is 1 and the second reason I prefer soft subs is that I can have control of the subs' text size--most hard-subbed vids come with very small text size which get even smaller (tiny, to be exact) when I convert the videos for playing on portable devices such as my iphone and psp.

Yeah, for sure you will go softsubs because you watch videos in your iphone and psp.

olympie wrote:For the animes they use transport stream raws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_transport_stream) who are about 3-4gb/ episode, they don't use raws you found on nyatorrent ect.. ^^

What I mean is that with people who release raws and also release hardsubbed versions of the raws. The file size is technically larger. That's what I'm saying.

Post by **k361** » Oct 1st, '11, 20:55

I like both. Hardsubs more in the past, but prefer softsubs now.

Recently there are german softsubs for some drama I had as hardsub, so I have get the raw now.

One advantage of hardsubs is the better quality control. Most hardsubs have less mistakes and better timing than some softsubs releases.

@Zash: Can't you make karaoke in ASS and SSA subtitle format? I'm not sure, but saw some tutorial somewhere.

Zash · Post by **Zash** » Oct 2nd, '11, 03:17

k361 wrote:@Zash: Can't you make karaoke in ASS and SSA subtitle format? I'm not sure, but saw some tutorial somewhere.

Hmm. No idea with that ASS and SSA.
There are very very few anime's that releases subtitle files because the subtitles are included in the files but they are considered as softsubbed (HorribleSubs and CrunchySubs is an example).
Concerning the Drama's, you can rarely find anyone that gives out subtitles with ASS and SSA format, they are mostly SRT.
With the Drama's, I would really go for softsubs because there are often grammatical errors with the translations.

To all who will post concerning what I like, please read my whole explanation on my long post because we are just circling around and round with the discussion.

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Oct 2nd, '11, 13:51

Zash wrote:What I think and my opinion why you have smaller file size than the raw video is maybe the video quality of the raw was reduced when published it with the hardsubs. The video quality of the subbed releases might not be as good as the raw.

I think you'd find that, at least in the case of our group's releases, you'd be wrong. Just because something is bigger doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. Take a high quality jpeg image and save it in tiff format, and it's going to be larger than the original jpeg. Does that mean the quality has improved? How could it have?

I think the same holds true for many HD videos that are re-encoded and wind up as a smaller size.

Getting back to the hard vs. soft thing, I time for both soft and hard subs, and many compromises must be made with soft subs. If there is spoken dialog at the same time as onscreen text, you've got to be a little creative with the timing placement. With hard subs, you simply place the onscreen text someplace appropriate for the correct duration without having any distracting effect on the spoken dialog.

In this next scene, someone is speaking to the woman (bottom), her character is being introduced (on the right), and at the same time, a message is coming over the police radio (top). This would have been impossible to convey clearly with soft subs.

Pantheria · Post by **Pantheria** » Oct 2nd, '11, 14:27

That's exactly why I dislike sof subs so much, there's so much that's missed, I feel like so much is lost in translation especially with the more complicated or fast paced dramas.

Zash · Post by **Zash** » Oct 2nd, '11, 14:34

Pantheria wrote:That's exactly why I dislike sof subs so much, there's so much that's missed, I feel like so much is lost in translation especially with the more complicated or fast paced dramas.

I definitely agree with that and that is what I was pointing out in my first long post.

@ssih:
Well you are more indulged in Dramas and I am more indulged in Animes.

I am definitely not saying that larger file size comes with better quality. Because I have definitely studied how those video and image file types differ and what they do to the video or image to make the file size larger or smaller. I studied them because we have a course in school discussing all that stuff about multimedia.

I prefer hardsubs on animes that have been also approved by the watchers because the karaoke just looks cool for me. That's my personal decision.
With what you posted, it is clearly seen that with the hardsubs, we can have full subtitles (the signs, the names on the walls, and other written things which are not subtitled in softsubs).
That is my main point in my previous post why "I like hardsubs because the subtitles are complete".
If the hardsubs are not complete with the subs, I simply just go google and find a better fansub group who also have hardsubs but definitely a better one with that anime.

And yes I think karaoke is now also possible in softsubs because I see some versions entitled as softsubs but has karaoke.

Softsubs are better when it comes to turning on and off the subtitles and you can freely change the style of the subtitles (I am using Windows Media Player Classic).

Have watched Secret Garden and I am using softsubs on it because there are still some grammatical errors with the translation. I really don't like the grammar of the subtitles I grabbed but I have no choice because it's the only one available. It lacks flavor to touch the heart of the watcher. Uhh, how will I say it.. It somehow lacks poetry with the lines. I think for example this is the case, some statements are translated literally but could have been improved with prior to the language knowledge of the one who makes the translation. But still I am thankful that they have subbed it in such a way people could understand the show. My only problem with that is that it lacks flavor as a said.

The other one I watched was Proposal Daisakusen and my copy is in hardsubs because I really don't have any choice because I only got one source where to get that drama before. I didn't bother looking for another one before because the translation is good. But I will download the raws and use the softsubs found in this forum because they are in 720p and the subtitles are typesetted. Unlike with what I have, it's only in 480p.

So may I ask you this favor, please enumerate the only things you can do in hardsubs and the only things you can do in softsubs. Somehow a comparison like how comparisons in a venn diagram are made? For us to see the similarities and differences between hardsubs and softsubs. For the sake of the people posting in this forum to stop the repetetive posts and have a proper lead.

Post by **k361** » Oct 2nd, '11, 16:00

ssih wrote:Getting back to the hard vs. soft thing, I time for both soft and hard subs, and many compromises must be made with soft subs. If there is spoken dialog at the same time as onscreen text, you've got to be a little creative with the timing placement. With hard subs, you simply place the onscreen text someplace appropriate for the correct duration without having any distracting effect on the spoken dialog.

Too much information can confuse. A good subber can reduce the visuell infromation to a good reading tempo. Not every sign must be translated.

What progam to you use for timing hardsubs?
Can this programs generate softsubs in more flexible format than srt?

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Oct 2nd, '11, 16:06

k361 wrote:What progam to you use for timing hardsubs?
Can this programs generate softsubs in more flexible format than srt?

I use Aegisub. It can save soft subs in .ass format which is far superior, but some people prefer .srt, or can't use .ass. This issue is discussed in other threads.

Zash · Post by **Zash** » Oct 2nd, '11, 16:56

k361 wrote:Too much information can confuse. A good subber can reduce the visuell infromation to a good reading tempo. Not every sign must be translated.

Not really because I like every sign translated in order for me to know every detail in what I am watching
About other softsubs file type, they are having issues with some other video players.
.ASS is really powerfull because as I can see with the Batsu Game series by downtown I'm watching which uses .ass subs, it's almost like hardsubs because the signs and other stuffs also have subs beside them.

lollercopter · Post by **lollercopter** » Oct 3rd, '11, 09:33

ssih wrote:Getting back to the hard vs. soft thing, I time for both soft and hard subs, and many compromises must be made with soft subs. If there is spoken dialog at the same time as onscreen text, you've got to be a little creative with the timing placement. With hard subs, you simply place the onscreen text someplace appropriate for the correct duration without having any distracting effect on the spoken dialog.

ASS softsubs:

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Oct 3rd, '11, 09:55

lollercopter wrote:
ssih wrote:Getting back to the hard vs. soft thing, I time for both soft and hard subs, and many compromises must be made with soft subs. If there is spoken dialog at the same time as onscreen text, you've got to be a little creative with the timing placement. With hard subs, you simply place the onscreen text someplace appropriate for the correct duration without having any distracting effect on the spoken dialog.
ASS softsubs:

Show me that with a .srt file, because that's what the soft sub people want.

lollercopter · Post by **lollercopter** » Oct 3rd, '11, 10:30

Why can't they use ASS subs?

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Oct 3rd, '11, 10:43

For the most part, you're preachin' to the choir here. .srt subs are more difficult to produce, and IMHO, and YHO as well, the final product is inferior.
However...
http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopi ... tm#1081537
...and several of the posts following are one argument. And if you read on to the next page, you'll see my argument in favor of .ass and against .srt.

Post by **k361** » Oct 3rd, '11, 10:45

I am wondering why people prefer SRT, if ASS is available.

Okay, it is easier to change font size for SRT-sub in the player or uninstalled fonts can be a problem with ASS-sub.

I don't know the compability of various media player for ASS, maybe this can be the reason.

Post by **k361** » Oct 3rd, '11, 10:53

ssih wrote:http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopi ... tm#1081537

You against srt and not primarly against softsubs?

During the last 3 years some software got updates and new features.
I can not believe that ASS is a problem nowaday.

I more dislike SMI-format, because I got no editor/converter for it.

ssih · Post by **ssih** » Oct 3rd, '11, 11:03

k361 wrote:You against srt and not primarly against softsubs?

For my personal viewing, I far prefer hard subs for reasons that I won't rehash. But as part of a subbing team, I understand that there are a lot of people who prefer soft, so we create those as well.

Perhaps the discussion should be brought up as to whether there are enough people who still prefer .srt over .ass. It's a tricky situation, because of the hundreds of people who download the .srt files, how many of them would stay quiet on the matter and simply stop downloading? I don't know.

Post by **k361** » Oct 3rd, '11, 11:36

ssih wrote:Perhaps the discussion should be brought up as to whether there are enough people who still prefer .srt over .ass. It's a tricky situation, because of the hundreds of people who download the .srt files, how many of them would stay quiet on the matter and simply stop downloading? I don't know.

Good point. Many viewer didn't thanks for the subs, how will you get a useful feedback about prefered format.

With this addional argument, I understand your positon better. I was confused first, why you hang on to compare the SRT with hardsub.

I download both (srt+ass) version, if available. I dont know why

Only use srt if font size is to small and I am to lazy to edit ass.

Maybe you are in position to release ASS version first and delay the SRT for a week/season end.
I think you can get feedback/information for or against SRT.

SpankThatAss · Post by **SpankThatAss** » Oct 31st, '11, 18:19

I like soft subs because I have less problems when I watch the drama in 1.5x speed on my GOM player. With hard subs if I speed up the video I usually find that the subs (and also the audio) lose sync.

Rudi · Post by **Rudi** » Jan 2nd, '12, 12:31

I prefer softsub (whether .srt or .ass it's ok) than hardsub, since I can edit softsub.

nasomi · Post by **nasomi** » Mar 27th, '12, 15:55

I think it depends on what I'mw atching. I only have experience with .srt, not .ass. Hardsubs are synced, where-as if I have soft subs and the subs are designed for one video, but i have a different version, i have to go through and adjust everything. Also, sometimes it's hard to find soft subs for videos, so after i find hte video, then i have to go hunting for the subs, i'll find 2-3 different kinds with different timings, find which one lines up, get all of them, discover that random eps srt is file not found.

I guess if, when I download a video file that has no subs, having srt in the same place would be nice rather than going to hunt it down and trying to determine if it's even the right one. Where-as hardsubs just work...

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