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What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

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What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

Angry
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75%
Happy
11
3%
Neutral
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19%
Other
10
3%
 
Total votes: 325

jdw112
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My opinion

Post by jdw112 » Dec 15th, '04, 20:21

I am pretty new here, so hello all. I am personally not against people selling fansubs for profit. No, I do not sell fansubs for profit or otherwise. I am against people selling fansubs for immense profits. If someone were to sell fansubs they would have to do a few things to make me happy:

1) Accurately describe the format of the files

2) Accurately describe the media the files are stored on

3) Give The buyer information leading to the subbers, thus providing the person the option of downloading future series if the are unaware the option currently exists

4) Leave ALL subber contact information/credits in the files.

5) Give the buyer information about the publishing companies who hold the rights so that they can follow the progress of the series in case it will be licensed and thus available for retail purchase at some future point.

6) Sell the media containing the files at only a modest prices. Modest prices include the cost of media, the cost of shipping, listing the auction, and a very small profit per disc. Profit probably not to exceed $.50 per CD or $1 per DVD because of the small amount of time invested which should count for something. If the seller receives a larger profit, they should donate a significant percentage to the subbers of the series being shipped. In fact, it would probably make more sense to cooperate with the subbers during sales or auctions so that the operation is transparent. This would allow the subbers to ensure that the sales/auctions and other disseminations stop once items are commercially available

Some people do not have great internet connections or access to great connections, and they need alternatives to downloading. Tape trades/distro have gone the way of the dinosaur forthe most part, so we must all more forward somehow. The selling of anime can help these users, but they should not be exploited and nor should the subbers or rights holders be.

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Cinemade
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Post by Cinemade » Dec 15th, '04, 22:22

clouds421 wrote:
neonkinpatsu wrote:Check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 71180&rd=1

The bidding is up to $86 for 4 burned DVD's :blink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 13543&rd=1

$25 for burned VCD's of ROYOW? :glare:
Wow, after seeing these links... I was curious whether the bidders knew that they were buying copies. Then I saw that one of the bidders bought Stairway to Heaven for over $100 :crazy:

No wonder they say prohibition encourages illegal behavior. They're making so much money off it.
Well, some may even be bidding so high even knowing what they are getting because they know of no other ways to getting certain shows. There is no english subtitled dvd of "stairway to heaven" or "what happened in bali" to be purchased "legally" that I know of nor a place to download them..

The prices may be mostly why we are feeling this is "wrong" but is it really any more "wrong" than say... ripping and distributing drama DVDs that yesasia sells and allowing thousands to download them for free? Of course, this does not pertain to fansubs which are works (maybe minus the actual video) of our generous peers.

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 15th, '04, 22:51

Cinemade wrote:Well, some may even be bidding so high even knowing what they are getting because they know of no other ways to getting certain shows. There is no english subtitled dvd of "stairway to heaven" or "what happened in bali" to be purchased "legally" that I know of nor a place to download them..
Yep, there is no legit English subbed DVD set of STH or Bali yet. Yesasia is planning on releasing both these series on DVD in 2005. What a shame the buyers blew the same amount of money (or more) on bootlegs that the forthcoming legit DVD's would cost. :lol The seller knows what they are sellling, and the buyers know too. In this case that's the angle, both know good and well and the buyer would probably defend the seller if asked, because they got what they wanted out of it. So neither the buyer nor seller see themselves as a loser. A lot of these relationships exist with gingertoys' auctions too.

The Bali auction said "will only replace defective disks". That says to me "Hmm, defective disks? They are selling burns....they have a master copy to refer to for replacements, so they can make copies and that's what they are selling." I'm sure they know. They didn't give a bad rating once they received the disks, so they don't mind that they are burns. For people who think DVD rip and fansub selling sucks and hope it's stopped, these relationships are the problem....neither has a complaint. The seller gets their profit, and the buyer is willing to pay for what they get, knowing they are burns of other people's work (TV station subs included).

As long as someone's buying, there's someone selling. I've heard that term on Cops and other shows when they talk about prostitution stings :lol

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Post by clouds421 » Dec 18th, '04, 09:17

Cinemade wrote:
The prices may be mostly why we are feeling this is "wrong" but is it really any more "wrong" than say... ripping and distributing drama DVDs that yesasia sells and allowing thousands to download them for free? Of course, this does not pertain to fansubs which are works (maybe minus the actual video) of our generous peers.
Frankly I think downloading dramas should be purely because it's not available commerical and/or for "evaluation" purposes. Downloading for free is kind of an incentive to try something out, which you don't have to fork money for so I think that's a positive thing. That's why I'm somewhat against providing high quality rips of licensed works.

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Post by kazunori » Dec 20th, '04, 07:55

Before Taiwan joins the World Trade Organisation, Taiwan's copyright law requires that a software (CD, DVD, Software etc...) to issue notice on the newspaper within 2 months of the release of their work to declear their copyright. Perhaps Japanese don't care what happened to their work outside Japan, so they didn't bother do that. And that's how Ho-Son and others come about.

-----end of my recollection-------------
Thats pretty interesting and also rather funny the sort of twisted justification that Taiwan used before in ignoring the concept of automatic copyright upon creation. Even if they weren't part of the WTO or WIPO (a different treaty with respect to intellectual property for which they still are not listed as a member), I find that rationale laughable because it means anyone who wanted to insure that their copyrights to be considered valin in Taiwan would have to go through that same procedure. To expect EVERY copyright holder to do that would turn their newspaper into one huge pile of new copyright notices. Pretty funny when you think about it.
I was surprised to find out that Japanese TV stations really don't care about fansubs.
Anyone who thinks Japan does not care about their copyrighted works OUTSIDE of the country or is oblivious to what is going on needs a reality check because that is far from the actuality. If you live here and begin to understand why things happen the way they do here, then it makes sense why what seems to be inaction is perceived as not caring and why it seems convenient to paint a picture that the government or the affected industries don't care. The government ministry which oversees this area takes a very dim view of copyright infringement both domestically and abroad. This includes fansubs which are distributed via any mechanism (bittorrent, ftp, http, cd, dvd, etc) regardless if one profits from it or not. Why? Because a copyrighted piece of work (the actual show, drama, etc) is being modified from the original into what is known as a derivative piece of work. More so, it is being distributed without the consent and ok of the original copyright holders. This does not fall under the Berne Convention's fair use article either. More so, Japanese copyright law tends to diminish the acceptance of fair use altogether. If someone was doing their own fansub for their own personal purposes and not distributing, this would be a moot thing because they wouldn't have any knowledge of it. Once released out publicly like this, of course they will know about them.

The way the organizations in Japan approach them are at times typically Japanese though sometimes with no sembelance of consistency and at times, logic. It does not help when the various organizations also interpret the laws differently in a few areas imposing a more literal and stricter definition while others don't. How it then gets dealt with depends on the situation and organization involved. The educational first mentality is true so you have cases where in the case of those sharing libraries of music, they will send a notice directing individuals to http://www.music-copyright.jp/ which explains the copyright stance from some of the major Japanese music and songwriting organizations. Another tactic used is going after major infringers (the sharers) and making their arrests known. This has been a relatively effective deterrent given recent high profile arrests. It gets a bit more difficult to do enforcement outside of the country because to be honest, the numbers are relatively small per country. There is a certain point where the expense of legal action plays a role in the decision so just because there is inaction does not mean it will always remain that way.

A good example was the overseas videotape rental market. It was common practice for Japanese bookstores and shops to tape shows and rent them out. Some broadcasters did eventually crack down on this in the US a few years ago sending out cease and desist notices to many store owners because it got to the level where it was becoming a very lucrative side business. Fuji was the most aggressive in enforcing this primarily since they've been offering more boxed shows for sale. Many of those doing it were under misguided assumptions that videotape rentals of televised dramas and variety shows as being fair game just because they were televised and that no sales were being lost like say if it were some music CD. The fact is that they are still copyrighted pieces of works which they had not received any written authorization for rebroadcasting and redistributing in any manner. More so, some were subtitled in a non-Japanese language which besides news and certain educational programming, is considered a violation of the portion of Japanese copyright law which places far more emphasis on maintaining the original content. The reason for this is simple. The act of subtitling is considered a derivative work since it visually changes the original. The copyright laws specifically provide provisions for copyright holders to have their works presented the way that they were meant to be unaltered. Some television stations feel more strongly about this than others. Bringing this home to this discussion, it is equally no different for fansubs that are distributed in any manner regardless if money is taken or not. From a Japanese legal view, this would represent at least two counts of infringement; one for modifying a copyrighted work and one for distributing it without the authorization of the original copyright holders. The laws are full of other technicalities and mine holes that there could probably be some other violations. Soft versus hard subs might seem to offer a loophole but would not hold true once the soft sub is enabled. I know that might look like a real anal technicality but it would still be viewed as infringement when interpreted by a Japanese court.

If that makes you feel Japanese copyright law is much more restrictive, then you are not alone. But this is the case with most other intellectual property laws in Japan. They are also full of potholes and nuances which makes things like licensing a difficult proposition. Broadcasters like Fuji, TBS, NTV, etc even at times have their own set of policies when it comes to subtitling. A great example of this is Fuji which expressly prohibits the subtitling of their licensed works by any licensor (it makes no mention of what sort of details for exclusive rights type contracts but I would presume those would be free to subtitle; at a substantial licensing cost). This is why licensees such as TV Japan are not allowed to sub any Fuji originated content. They have a terse statement on their english site http://www.fujitv.co.jp/en/faq/topmain.html#06 but this was their official longer statement now longed removed from their site but still archived in the wayback portal.

http://web.archive.org/web/200010070453 ... index.html

Dear Viewers,

The Fuji Television Network, Inc., a Japan based commercial broadcaster with subsidiary offices in New York and Los Angeles under the name of Fujisankei Communications International, Inc. (FCI), has since 1982 been providing programming directed to expatriate Japanese viewers residing in the United States. This programming has mainly consisted of news shows sent from Tokyo to our New York office where they were edited and then redistributed.Recently, we have included dramas and variety shows.

Provision of the programs is and has historically been defined as a "service to the Japanese community abroad." As such, the programs are subject to restrictions related to Japanese copyright law, and, except for news, are to be aired without subtitles. Some entertainment programs, however, were briefly distributed to the US west coast via Hawaii, and inadvertently appeared with subtitles. From April of this year all distribution to the US is direct from Japan, and without subtitles.

We realize that the appearance and elimination of subtitling on our programs aired on the US west coast may have caused inconvenience to some of our viewers. We ask for understanding that Fuji Television Network, Inc. and FCI, are mandated to provide programming as it is broadcast in Japan for the Japanese speaking community in the United States.

Please direct any inquiries on this subject to Fuji Television Network, Inc.as follows:
Fuji Television Network, Inc.
International Department
2-4-8 Daiba, Minato-ku
Tokyo 137-8088


To put this into perspective, subtitling of many Fuji shows went on for many years and by some accounts, for almost a decade in Hawaii until the change was announced in 2000 (you would need to talk with someone who had subscribed to NGN from the beginning to find out the actual length). This may not make sense unless you knew that at one time, Fuji TV's english site was actually a large marketing arm promoting the licensing of dramas and variety programming to overseas markets that demographically made sense. There was never any word about prohibiting subtitling which makes sense if you are specifically trying to market to non-Japanese markets. Why the change of stance after that amount of time is probably only known to the execs who made that decision. Other broadcasters have been less stringent on this which is why you do see subtitles for licensed shows from TV Tokyo, TBS, NTV, etc. Again, trying to stress that it is something not uniform and depends on station as well as the type of content.

So how does licensing Japanese programming fit into all this? You would really need to talk to the ones who have tried because the stories will usually be similar. It is like pulling teeth and once you do manage to get somewhere, the costs can be extremely prohibitive where turning a profit on such a venture is far from guaranteed. This is where understanding Japanese copyright laws top to bottom helps because it directly affects how licensing terms are dealt with. Unlike in the US where terms can at times cover a broader spectrum, Japanese copyright laws means you need to deal with them on a case-by-case basis (i.e. per series or per film). A popular anime series can take from $1-$3 million for an exclusive distribution license. The numbers are high since that exclusive right allows you more freedom including doing stuff like subbing or dubbing. The numbers for popular television shows are also dramatically expensive which is why it is not surprising to see relatively few shows being shown because the numbers do not work for television stations. It is impossible to recoup these fees via advertising in a limited market demographic and unlike animation where it is far easier to do merchandising deals (which is where the real money comes from), this is much mroe difficult to do with dramas and variety shows. TV Japan is able to do it because they have a special deal with NHK that offsets some of the licensing fees in exchange for broadcasting a good number of NHK programming with the bulk of that being news, cultural and educational programs. This sort of licensing deal also means putting up with whatever restrictions as mandated by law. You may wonder why the Japanese TV stations seem intent on pricing themselves out of the market. Part of that answer might be answered below.

So when I read some of the posts here mentioning about a pipeline dream of getting the Japanese TV networks to work with individuals like fansubbers, all this reveals is a lack of understanding of how the business really works in Japan because it is not as simple as writing off an email from a webform and hoping you will get a response. It takes far more work than that including writing business proposals that can persuade a Japanese television executive why you even deserve to be considered for a license. Oft times you will need to fly your rear end to Japan and actually meet face to face to sell your plan. Then you need to get over the "overseas" factor. Many top tier execs in Japan care about only one thing, the Japanese market. Dealing with foreign markets is normally seen as a headache to some of them because of the different philosophies, communication issues, etc. Try getting a contract with a music wholesaler in Japan if you are a foreign based company (some wholesalers in other areas also refuse to do with business with someone who has intentions of exporting a Japanese product outside Japan). Because of the entire price control structure of the music industry (mandated because their business model works differently where artists are salaried and there are a greater number of specialized support staff in place). Anyone who says they need to change really has no clue how that is easier said than done. Japan has always been an insular homogenous country so it is not surprising that narrowminded or one track thinking abounds at the highest levels of business and government. It is sometimes a conscious decision to not want to compete outside their own country. Parts of the popular culture market feels that way and are not really intent on international expansion. Part of that is why the economy here is so messed up because of the mentality of thinking or sticking to less efficient but more traditional ways or not trying to expand markets. There are lot of opinions flying around about this on the net from people attempting to crack the Japanese market or to export some of it out of Japan running into stone wall after stone wall. Anyway, it is not until a market grows into something large like automobiles or consumer electronics that they will start climbing over walls for you. Anime is yet another recent area which the Japanese side has become more accomodating towards but that took several decades to reach that level. Other areas of Japanese popular culture like TV programming and music are small by comparison and not even on the radar. This is why music initiatives tend to tied more closely to the anime market. The import divisions of some major label companies hope that it will provide a channel without excessive effort plus execs are more open to funding anime based tieup initiatives as opposed to ones meant to stand on their own.

As for reporting this violator, the irony is that in the eyes of the Japanese TV companies, those doing the fansubbing and redistributing them are as equally guilty of copyright violations no matter if you aren't making a dime off of it (that is just yet another misconception of general copyright law no matter what country). A fansubber has only copyrights on the subtitles they created, not on the actual work that it is based upon. When those two are put together, it becomes that beforementioned derivative work which the fansubber has no rights over and cannot be distributed in any manner unless one obtains the permission of the original copyright holder. So it is patently false that adding subtitles to a show results in a new product which one is entitled to do with anyway that they please including profiting from it. So it is no surprise to not receive a response because it is a very touchy matter. To be blunt, if they go after this one person, they would have to go after everyone else including the fansubbers, folks that run these server sites since they play a role as accessories, and the people sharing (keyword since sharing is directly part of the redistribution process whereas just downloading is not and perfectly legal). The other thing is it is also cost ineffective at this juncture to take legal action because face it, what is in place now is small potatoes. Now if someone were to setup a company and turn it into a large scale operation, that would likely be more attention getting with potentially severe consequences. Of course, things could change in the future if J-dramas were to become as lucrative as anime. But then J-drama lovers would face the same thing that the anime ones are now beginning to face where it will be common place for trackers, servers, subbers, and sharers to get something like http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/legal/ ... ctory.html

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 24th, '04, 16:09

Ladies and gentlemen, we have ANOTHER ONE:

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQgotopageZ1Q ... propertyZ1

They are probably selling the stuff they bought from Gingertoys or may be a clone nick of Gingertoys.

Going by the reply I got from ebay after numerous complaints, it seems they couldn't give a flying f*** about copies of commercially available products being sold, as I expected. And they rant in their policies how you can't sell bootlegs. Psshhtt. If I wasn't so lazy and didn't not want to be a bootlegger, I'd so give it a shot. I want a house, with a driveway, in the suburbs. :lol

Anyhoo, I only have 2 ideas left. Both aren't guaranteed to work, but heh, still thinking of how to pull one of them off. However I'm not posting them here and tipping GT2 or anyone else off. :lol
Last edited by neonkinpatsu on Dec 25th, '04, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EZKiel » Dec 24th, '04, 16:30

:blink
kazunori's post got me dizzy there.....but it's true.
sad but true. :-(

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Post by deadhippo » Dec 24th, '04, 17:06

neonkinpatsu wrote:
Anyhoo, I only have 2 ideas left. Both aren't guaranteed to work, but heh, still thinking of how to pull one of them off. However I'm not posting them here and tipping GT2 or anyone else off. :lol
good luck
i hope you tell the result of your next plan

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 25th, '04, 02:04

deadhippo wrote:
neonkinpatsu wrote:
Anyhoo, I only have 2 ideas left. Both aren't guaranteed to work, but heh, still thinking of how to pull one of them off. However I'm not posting them here and tipping GT2 or anyone else off. :lol
good luck
i hope you tell the result of your next plan
Hahaha, thanks :) The only thing is, I think it would be pretty dumb to say them here because GT2 browses this forum on a regular basis. Once zdoon made a comment in this thread about a screen cap of Full House being posted on an auction, within hours GT2 changed the screen cap to make it not so evident. So it's pretty obvious to me that we are being watched. :glare:

But one of my ideas (the most vengeful one) would involve someone else being involved as I can't do what would be required. Plus, it wouldn't be an instant thing but if it worked, the turnout would be pretty nasty. :rofl: XD But I'm still thinking. Anything I'd be discussing would have to be in a PM to whoever the party that would be willing to try it. It would also have to be carefully done. I'm still researching to see if it would be effective.

Just to comment on another thing that sucks, the dealings with GT2 are even shadier than normal bootleggers. Hijacking other people's comments to respond to someone else: That is so shitty and underhanded. And the buyers who don't know what's available and don't know what they are bidding on because it's NOT stated, whatever feedback they give, even if it's neutral, GT2 makes sure to give the exact same feedback claiming "well they're not even available in the U.S.". How shady and spiteful. I mean damn, they are the bootlegger and not even bootlegging their own stuff. As if it not being available here justifies making a huge profit from selling burns (with glitches and out of sync audio, which seems to be a common complaint).

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Post by jaycee05 » Dec 25th, '04, 07:15

neonkinpatsu wrote: But one of my ideas (the most vengeful one) would involve someone else being involved as I can't do what would be required. Plus, it wouldn't be an instant thing but if it worked, the turnout would be pretty nasty. :rofl: XD But I'm still thinking. Anything I'd be discussing would have to be in a PM to whoever the party that would be willing to try it. It would also have to be carefully done. I'm still researching to see if it would be effective.
now im really curious wat's ur plan neo, :w00t:
neonkinpatsu wrote: Just to comment on another thing that sucks, the dealings with GT2 are even shadier than normal bootleggers. Hijacking other people's comments to respond to someone else: That is so shitty and underhanded. And the buyers who don't know what's available and don't know what they are bidding on because it's NOT stated, whatever feedback they give, even if it's neutral, GT2 makes sure to give the exact same feedback claiming "well they're not even available in the U.S.". How shady and spiteful. I mean damn, they are the bootlegger and not even bootlegging their own stuff. As if it not being available here justifies making a huge profit from selling burns (with glitches and out of sync audio, which seems to be a common complaint).
I know, I know, i know, i know.......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :x
it feels like i sifted a thousand pages of his/her comments way back when the fansub thread was still fresh...but I finally caught on with his/her technique...son of a fricken butchered pig, i was so pissed off when i noticed it...he/she's pretty smart actually, but it's not something to get impressed with...i sometimes believe in karma, n i wish it's a gazillion times the $$ he/she got when the deed slams back to him...
i hope ur plan works neo...but he/she'll probably get ready for it...although i hope it's something that couldnt be dodged from

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 25th, '04, 14:42

Sorry in advance for this butt-long post.... :unsure:

Well, what I was suspecting was kinda confirmed regarding Ebay liability. I was reading online about a lawsuit filed against Ebay back in 2000. It was about a guy who had made a movie that was only released on VHS. But, people were selling DVD's of it on Ebay. The guy emailed Ebay claiming to have intellectual rights and so on. After a while Ebay responded asking for the auction links and proof that he had rights and more information (such as "It's not out on DVD"). The guy just told them "I demand that Ebay cease and desist providing ability for bootleggers to sell their copies of my production" and etc. Ebay responded several times asking him for this info and the guy didn't give it to him, he just demanded the auctions be removed. Ebay kept telling him to join Vero so be able to more easily chase down and have those auctions removed (or something). The guy didn't do that and filed a lawsuit against Ebay. Granted, this guy was not compliant. I kinda wish he was so we could see what would have really happened.

During the procedings it was proven that the guy was correct: DVD's of his movie were never produced and the products would have to be bootlegs. HOWEVER, Ebay was not found to be liable in any way. Why, you ask? Because Ebay cannot physically inspect products being sold on Ebay and while they provide Safe Harbor, the liability is on the sellers and buyers. Ebay claims to have employees designated to patrol their site daily to look for things that look potentially infringing to copyrights (yeah, right, lol) and if they look potentially infringing, they are removed out of any suspicion just in case. Well, basically if it doesn't say "This is an unauthorized copy" or "This is a burned copy" or "This is an outright bootleg", Ebay has no real proof and therefore is not required or liable to remove such auctions because they can't physically inspect nor prove it, bla bla bla.

When I got a response from Ebay finally, the response I got was "We will take care of it and conduct proper actions as required. However in many of these cases it is a matter of 'buyer says, seller says'". So basically if it's not blatant in their eyes, they wash their hands of it. They would need die-hard proof that it was bootleg and could affect THEM in a negative way. Even so, all Ebay has to say is 'there was no die-hard proof and we had no clue it was a bootleg' and they are immune. And with buyers' ratings saying "bootleg product" or similar, that's also a matter of "buyer says, seller says".

But, ya gotta remember, even in the previous lawsuit, this involved copyright in the United States, which may be held in more of a high regard for an Ebay seller in the U.S. I think Korean, Japanese, and Chinese (mainland, Taiwanese, etc) copyright issues would be even more difficult to hold Ebay liable because Ebay may not even have any idea how they work or the consequences that may be involved. However, the seller is still breaking laws, it's just that Ebay will continue to let them do it, washing their hands of the whole thing and collecting the money, claiming ignorance. This is what I got out of it when I got the reply, but of course I thought it may be unlawful of them to do so. Apparently, they feel they are pretty safe and just might be.

So, complaining to Ebay as outsiders to have these auctions removed seems not to be the way to go, afterall. So it seems that the only way to put a stop to it is for the original production companies to take action against the sellers themselves (I kinda suspected that :glare: ). If and when that would happen, that would result in an arrest with hefty fines and jailtime. These type of sellers have infringed copyrights in several countries. It's just a matter of getting those countries' authorities' attention, if they'd even really care or believe it enough to investigate.

From what I'm guessing, the only way to stop it is to cry copyright infringement to the production companies, if they'd even take action. This just seems to be too difficult of a task to pull off, and we're not exactly innocent either. :lol Even if the contact of the production companies would be successful and they did take action, the results could affect what we are doing too. It could raise a red flag with them that bootlegging this stuff (well, infringing) may be common outside of Asia and they could start a watchdog plan :blink

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 25th, '04, 14:50

jaycee05 wrote: I know, I know, i know, i know.......arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :x
it feels like i sifted a thousand pages of his/her comments way back when the fansub thread was still fresh...but I finally caught on with his/her technique...son of a fricken butchered pig, i was so pissed off when i noticed it...he/she's pretty smart actually, but it's not something to get impressed with...i sometimes believe in karma, n i wish it's a gazillion times the $$ he/she got when the deed slams back to him...
i hope ur plan works neo...but he/she'll probably get ready for it...although i hope it's something that couldnt be dodged from
Yeah, I'm still pondering one plan. If it were to be successful, yep, it would be pretty nasty, but at this point that seller would not be able to prepare for it unless they stopped selling before it happened. I still don't wanna mention it though :lol It could be kind of a risky plan, meaning someone would have to take a chance on doing it, maybe losing a few bucks (they may be able to get it back), and I don't know how quick nor how severe the outcome would be....if it'd even work. I'm still trying to research but there could be some factors that would hinder its effectiveness or severity. If anyone on d-addicts were to contact me and wanted to check it out, of course I'd have to check their IP first :lol I'm not sure about doing it at all as of yet though.

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Post by techie » Dec 25th, '04, 15:25

neonkinpatsu wrote:Yeah, I'm still pondering one plan. If it were to be successful, yep, it would be pretty nasty, but at this point that seller would not be able to prepare for it unless they stopped selling before it happened.
See the previous post about what my buddy did, in the thread to stop ebay sellers.

He also informed me that ebay told him the only one who can remove a listing by requesting it, is practically the copyright holder and that EBay will NOT take any action or don't even need to take any action even if a seller is in violation of the TOS (terms of service).

Thus EBay has disclaimed any liability for the missuse of services.
I have not read every detail but I am sure there is a clause towards the end of the TOS agreement that "Sellers shall hold EBay unharmed in all actions" and voi'la... now they dont even have to have staff to respond to messages from the regular mortals complaints. If they do, it's just because "they feel like doing it" but their not liable and need not do so at any time, with less than that a "partner company" is contacting them.

Heck, they don't even have Sony listed as a partner and they own both Sony Movies and Columbia ... Weird but I think you woul dhave very little chance getting anything legally back from actions against EBay directly.

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 25th, '04, 15:39

techie wrote:
neonkinpatsu wrote:Yeah, I'm still pondering one plan. If it were to be successful, yep, it would be pretty nasty, but at this point that seller would not be able to prepare for it unless they stopped selling before it happened.
See the previous post about what my buddy did, in the thread to stop ebay sellers.

He also informed me that ebay told him the only one who can remove a listing by requesting it, is practically the copyright holder and that EBay will NOT take any action or don't even need to take any action even if a seller is in violation of the TOS (terms of service).

Thus EBay has disclaimed any liability for the missuse of services.
I have not read every detail but I am sure there is a clause towards the end of the TOS agreement that "Sellers shall hold EBay unharmed in all actions" and voi'la... now they dont even have to have staff to respond to messages from the regular mortals complaints. If they do, it's just because "they feel like doing it" but their not liable and need not do so at any time, with less than that a "partner company" is contacting them.

Heck, they don't even have Sony listed as a partner and they own both Sony Movies and Columbia ... Weird but I think you woul dhave very little chance getting anything legally back from actions against EBay directly.
Well, the ideas I'm pondering don't deal target Ebay at all, luckily :lol

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Post by BT-Slut » Dec 25th, '04, 18:44

kazunori wrote: As for reporting this violator, the irony is that in the eyes of the Japanese TV companies, those doing the fansubbing and redistributing them are as equally guilty of copyright violations no matter if you aren't making a dime off of it (that is just yet another misconception of general copyright law no matter what country). A fansubber has only copyrights on the subtitles they created, not on the actual work that it is based upon. When those two are put together, it becomes that beforementioned derivative work which the fansubber has no rights over and cannot be distributed in any manner unless one obtains the permission of the original copyright holder. So it is patently false that adding subtitles to a show results in a new product which one is entitled to do with anyway that they please including profiting from it. So it is no surprise to not receive a response because it is a very touchy matter. To be blunt, if they go after this one person, they would have to go after everyone else including the fansubbers, folks that run these server sites since they play a role as accessories, and the people sharing (keyword since sharing is directly part of the redistribution process whereas just downloading is not and perfectly legal). The other thing is it is also cost ineffective at this juncture to take legal action because face it, what is in place now is small potatoes. Now if someone were to setup a company and turn it into a large scale operation, that would likely be more attention getting with potentially severe consequences. Of course, things could change in the future if J-dramas were to become as lucrative as anime. But then J-drama lovers would face the same thing that the anime ones are now beginning to face where it will be common place for trackers, servers, subbers, and sharers to get something like http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/legal/ ... ctory.html
Hello people! Ding-Dong! Read this again and again. And if you have time, read kazunori's entire long post again in its entirety. It's very inciteful and helpful.

Now let's do some critical thinking (analysis). If I was a higher up executive at one of the Japanese or Korean TV studios producing the J and K Dramas, what would I do in this situation. If I wanted these annoying pests (fansubbers) to stop translating and distributing our programs for free what would I do? Would I spend resources and time to chase down this gingertoy2 person--who is actually my only ally in stopping these pests (fansubbers) from continuing to fansub--or do I sit back and allow gingertoy2 to continue illegally selling these fansubbed dramas, at the same time frustrating the pests so much that they finally stop fansubbing? Hmmm... how smart do I have to be to figure this one out?

Hello?!?! Fansubbers who stop fansubbing because of gingertoy2 are only capitulating and doing EXACTLY what the TV studios ultimately want. Which is to clear the world of the existence of fansubbers, period. If gingertoy2 makes a bit in the process, then that's the cost of business, but at least we didn't have to pay our own staff and legal counsel to chase after these pesty fansubbers. And if gingertoy2 truly makes a huge amount of profit from this, then we can always take legal action against him/her at a later time. In the meantime, let's allow gingertoy2 to frustrate and retire as many fansubbers out there as possible.

BT-Slut speaking for self again: my own stance is that profitting from others work is unethical, period. That INCLUDES fansubbers trying to make a penny from their subs. Fansubbers do NOT have the legal right to distribute for a profit their translations, especially since they never obtain the original rightsholders' permission to translate and distribute. If you distribute for free, it's still techincally illegal, but much more tolerated; but if fansubbers charge for their subbing efforts, then it's definitely illegal.

Subbing is just translating. If a book is published in English, and I translate it into Spanish or German and try to sell it, that is illegal. The translation my be my work, but it's derived from a copyrighted original and I have no right to sell my translated work without obtaining the original rightsholder's permission. None of the fansubbers ever got permission from the original rights holder to distribute their translated works. When it's done for free, it's not as bad (but still techincally illegal) but when it's done for profit, even if for 50 cents--it's definitely illegal then.

To all the fansubbers, I suggest you retire if you can't stand the thought of people like gingertoy2. In the grand scheme of things, I've already spent way too much time and effort (took 3 hours to read through this thread and respond) in caring about gingertoy2. With a world full of hunger and war and terrorism, if all you give a **** about is gingertoy2 and her making a little bit of money, then you've got your priorities all fucked up, BIG TIME.

Peace be with you all. Live long and prosper.

edit: followup thought... what if gingertoy was actually contracted by the J and K TV studios to make some money back for the respective studios? It does not cost the studios anything as the fansubbers are working for free? :D The fansubbers can't sue because they never had the right to distribute the translation subs in the first place.

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Post by zdoon » Dec 25th, '04, 20:15

BT-Slut wrote:
kazunori wrote: As for reporting this violator, the irony is that in the eyes of the Japanese TV companies, those doing the fansubbing and redistributing them are as equally guilty of copyright violations no matter if you aren't making a dime off of it (that is just yet another misconception of general copyright law no matter what country). A fansubber has only copyrights on the subtitles they created, not on the actual work that it is based upon. When those two are put together, it becomes that beforementioned derivative work which the fansubber has no rights over and cannot be distributed in any manner unless one obtains the permission of the original copyright holder. So it is patently false that adding subtitles to a show results in a new product which one is entitled to do with anyway that they please including profiting from it. So it is no surprise to not receive a response because it is a very touchy matter. To be blunt, if they go after this one person, they would have to go after everyone else including the fansubbers, folks that run these server sites since they play a role as accessories, and the people sharing (keyword since sharing is directly part of the redistribution process whereas just downloading is not and perfectly legal). The other thing is it is also cost ineffective at this juncture to take legal action because face it, what is in place now is small potatoes. Now if someone were to setup a company and turn it into a large scale operation, that would likely be more attention getting with potentially severe consequences. Of course, things could change in the future if J-dramas were to become as lucrative as anime. But then J-drama lovers would face the same thing that the anime ones are now beginning to face where it will be common place for trackers, servers, subbers, and sharers to get something like http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/legal/ ... ctory.html
Hello people! Ding-Dong! Read this again and again. And if you have time, read kazunori's entire long post again in its entirety. It's very inciteful and helpful.
kazunori's post explains the obvious: Production companies are against everyone involved in distributing their shows w/o permission. I think everyone at d-addicts understands this. So who's involved? The people who upload, the people who download, the people who translate, the people who time and subtitle, the people who rip and encode from tv broadcasts, the people who run this server, and the people who sell copies of all of this at ebay for a profit.
Now let's do some critical thinking (analysis). If I was a higher up executive at one of the Japanese or Korean TV studios producing the J and K Dramas, what would I do in this situation. If I wanted these annoying pests (fansubbers) to stop translating and distributing our programs for free what would I do? Would I spend resources and time to chase down this gingertoy2 person--who is actually my only ally in stopping these pests (fansubbers) from continuing to fansub--or do I sit back and allow gingertoy2 to continue illegally selling these fansubbed dramas, at the same time frustrating the pests so much that they finally stop fansubbing? Hmmm... how smart do I have to be to figure this one out?

Hello?!?! Fansubbers who stop fansubbing because of gingertoy2 are only capitulating and doing EXACTLY what the TV studios ultimately want. Which is to clear the world of the existence of fansubbers, period. If gingertoy2 makes a bit in the process, then that's the cost of business, but at least we didn't have to pay our own staff and legal counsel to chase after these pesty fansubbers. And if gingertoy2 truly makes a huge amount of profit from this, then we can always take legal action against him/her at a later time. In the meantime, let's allow gingertoy2 to frustrate and retire as many fansubbers out there as possible.
that's not critical thinking. that's impetuous musing tending to self-contradictory devil's advocacy only, and it ignores salient perspectives.
BT-Slut speaking for self again: my own stance is that profitting from others work is unethical, period. That INCLUDES fansubbers trying to make a penny from their subs. Fansubbers do NOT have the legal right to distribute for a profit their translations, especially since they never obtain the original rightsholders' permission to translate and distribute. If you distribute for free, it's still techincally illegal, but much more tolerated; but if fansubbers charge for their subbing efforts, then it's definitely illegal.
good thing no fansubber here is trying to make a single penny for their work; in many cases, they probably lose money.
Subbing is just translating. If a book is published in English, and I translate it into Spanish or German and try to sell it, that is illegal. The translation my be my work, but it's derived from a copyrighted original and I have no right to sell my translated work without obtaining the original rightsholder's permission. None of the fansubbers ever got permission from the original rights holder to distribute their translated works. When it's done for free, it's not as bad (but still techincally illegal) but when it's done for profit, even if for 50 cents--it's definitely illegal then.
read kazunori's post and this thread again. subtitlers can make copyrights to their subtitle work. they simply can't combine that (and distribute it or sell it) with the shows. In the case that they do, as I understand it, subtitles are derivative. okumasama's posts are more interesting in this regard.
To all the fansubbers, I suggest you retire if you can't stand the thought of people like gingertoy2. In the grand scheme of things, I've already spent way too much time and effort (took 3 hours to read through this thread and respond) in caring about gingertoy2. With a world full of hunger and war and terrorism, if all you give a **** about is gingertoy2 and her making a little bit of money, then you've got your priorities all fucked up, BIG TIME.
point of fact: gt2 is not making a little bit of money. he/she is making a lot of money and on a regular basis. Well, legal issues and all that aside, no fansubber should feel as though they are working for these people. There is no "grand scheme of things" here other than: fansubber puts in hours of time, labor, and intellectual knowledge into subtitles so that fans like you can enjoy a show for free. ebay pirates take that hardwork and sell it to others for ridiculous financial gain, often tricking consumers about the quality of their product. In the perspective of the people making dramas, everyone- including you who downloads a show- is wrong. But no ****!

Actions, however, can be taken by fansubbers themselves who wish to guard the fansub process against particular bootleggers, on behalf of the work that they do and that would be legit in itself. Ultimately, companies can benefit by such actions or they can lose out too - or both at the same time. But that's a bit irrelevant. If you feel strongly about the company's losing out regardless then, perhaps you should stop downloading all of these avi's and .srt's that you do. But you're obviously not against the fansubbers or d-addicts.com; you're not exactly for the companies either (since you're a thief), but you're against people who sell this stuff for profit. This sets up a clear course of action for you. I'd suggest the less contradictory one of being against ebay pirates, helping fansubbers do what they can to disassociate from or minimize ebay pirates, and, finally, knowing and respecting the important differences, which is what this thread is about anyway.

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Post by AoiNeko » Dec 29th, '04, 22:03

Can a relative newbie play devil's advocate for a second?

GT2, from her feedback, sold about 7000 units in the last year. Assuming (conservatively) $10 profit on each, that's a cool $70k/year, and assuming that each transaction takes her all of 10 minutes, that's maybe 4 hours a day, five days a week that she has to put in to get it. So, GT2 is doing pretty well on this, and it obviously irritates people here. I have no doubt that if I'd spent hours subbing a video out of love, and this person came along making $70k/year off of my work, I'd be upset about it too. Very upset.

But let's consider this: the posters here at d-addicts absolutely have it their power to *crush* GT2. Anyone with a huge library of doramas and a desire to destroy profiteers could run her out of business in short order: sell the same product at a no=profit price of $5/disc including shipping -- with commentary in the auction to the effect that the buyer is merely purchasing the convenience of not having to search out and download the stuff themselves. I doubt she'd sell many of her $15-20 copies then.

I think, though, that no one is going to do that.

Nobody wants the irritation of (1) dealing with 7000 eBay listings a year; (2) burning, packing and shipping 140 of these a week; or (3) looking like a good target for lawsuits. Anyone here want to take that load on for zero profit? I know *I* wouldn't.

Plus, frankly, GT2 *is* providing a service. Just as an example: there's an older series that *I* happen to want right now. Since it's an older one, most of the torrents are going to be dead. So, to get this, I'm going to need to post begging seed requests, scrounge eMule, and generally spend an enormous amount of time finding sources. Then, if I'm lucky, a month from now, I may have the series. If I'm pig-headed enough to insist on watching it on my DVD player, I then get to transcode the .avis and burn the results. If I value my own time and effort at all, then paying GT2 $1.40 / episode to do that for me isn't going to look like all that bad a deal. Were I at the level of "what's d-addicts, what's a torrent, and how do you watch an .avi" it would look like a really GREAT deal.

What I suppose I'm getting at is that GT2 is able to ooze into the picture for one reason only: copyright laws. In a sane world, the fansubbers themselves would be able to cover their time and expenses by selling the videos themselves and paying a percentage back to the original producers in the form of a compulsory licensing fee. But so long as the doramas themselves can't be distributed under a clearly legal framework, and the subtitlers can really assert no legal rights, there's going to be an opening for people like GT2.

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Post by Bando » Dec 30th, '04, 04:15

I just found a guy on ebay selling Shinsengumi eps1-36 on 18 DVDs.
What a low life. He DLs them from here I bet and uses the fansubbers hard work for his profit. What a sleaze ball.

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Post by toilet_bear » Dec 30th, '04, 04:46

hahah, watever...

if idiots want to waste their money its their own loss?
gosh, especially if they know what they are doing. stupid kids have too much money
nowadays

>_< heh... ^_^ wat happened to just good ole fashioned online piracy?

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Post by toilet_bear » Dec 30th, '04, 04:49

well... also... -_-;;; its not ok if the sellers just leech off other ppls work

... yea, profitting from other ppls work is not right...
but if they do all the fansubbing themselves... then sure they are entitled to selling their own products as they were made by them anyways... ^_^

... but that stealing other's work thing is bad. anyways, i dont really know much about fansub buying anyways. im just glad that there are fans out there to provide (most) works for free ^_^ hehehehe...

^_^ appreciate all the fansubbers out there! thank you~ :lol

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 30th, '04, 05:05

toilet_bear wrote: ... yea, profitting from other ppls work is not right...
but if they do all the fansubbing themselves... then sure they are entitled to selling their own products as they were made by them anyways... ^_^
Actually, that's not true. Fansubbers have intellectual rights to their own translations supposedly. However, when translating a show like in fansubbing, that doesn't give them right to distribute the show with the translations for profit. To do such things, you need permission from the owner of the rights, which cost money (I assume maybe a percentage of the profits). Yesasia obtains rights to do so with the production companies before doing any subbing work and releasing.

Even distributing it through uploading and downloading is illegal. However making money off of it isn't any right of theirs either, legally. Although both are unlawful, I feel making a buck off it is worse, but that is a matter of opinion.

In cases such as that, if the production company of a drama were to contact a fansubber and tell them to cease and desist uploading their show and the fansubber's translations, most fansubbers would comply and things *might* be hunky-dory from that point on. However, if the fansubber were making a profit, that would raise more red flags and I think the companies be less pleased than if the former happened.

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why is it difficult to understand?

Post by delsxyz » Dec 30th, '04, 05:22

1: You have a tiny convenience store.
And you use FM radio in your store so that the customer can
listen to talks or musics.
---This is illegal.

2; You teach English to Japanese at your house.
And you use DVD or VHS tape of the Japanese Drama
and you translate them or have your students translate them.
this way everyone will enjoy learning.
---This is illegal.

If you don't understand the above, of course you never understand
that "making translations to Drama or movie and upload such works
to internet" is OK. Then, put such work and the video as hard sub
is OK. Thus, you put them onto DVD as DVD format is OK.
Even put hard sub avi onto DVD as many as possible to watch
it on Computer is OK. You captured dramas from TV and super
imposed : This is not for sale or ebay. If you have paid any money
you have been cheated. And you put your logo or ego superimposed.
too. All work was done by you. That is OK.
----Just realize. What we see and do here is ALL ILLEGAL no
matter how you slice it. From that point of view, I can't criticize
someone who sells Fansub works at ebay. Who can get angry?
Only the ones who own copyrights. I wrote it in the banner contest,
but good faces, familiar faces... Looks nice! But illegal matters
should not be used. The one you made is yours, from copyright
point of view. But if the ingredients are all illegal, do you want
to claim that you own the copyright? Huh?

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Re: why is it difficult to understand?

Post by zdoon » Dec 30th, '04, 05:41

delsxyz wrote: ----Just realize. What we see and do here is ALL ILLEGAL no
matter how you slice it.
no **** sherlock! thank you for the enligtenment.

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Post by zdoon » Dec 30th, '04, 06:00

AoiNeko wrote: Plus, frankly, GT2 *is* providing a service. .
your reasoning is faulty. gt2 is providing a service but gt2 is doing it to get paid handsomely for it. here I'll illustrate: $$$. there's no drawing of analogies here to any of the fansubbers who make subtitles- for free; or to the people who upload - for free; the people who host this site- for free.

moreover (and sorry if by now i am only being repetetive), downloading uploading subtitling hosting d-addicts etctera may be illegal in some basic sense but i wouldn't place fansubbers doing hard work on the same footing with the flipmode hippity hoppity lowlife dipshits who are selling this on ebay. the thread point clearly is: if fansubbers wish to disassociate from the latter group of people, then by all means they are entitled to do so. that shouldn't be difficult to understand.

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Post by nixxienixxie » Dec 30th, '04, 06:26

These days I get my dorama from Buruburu's excellent service (at jdorama.com, he only charges strictly for the media...about 75cents per disk + shipping) and downloading.

The service is relatively new though, and I didn't always have the broadband connection I do now. I used to be on crappy 56kbps dial-up, and it would take me about a WEEK to download ONE episode! There was a time when I was actually seriously considering purchasing on ebay. Of course I was a relative noob then, unaware of the process of fansubbing etc. And I'm definitely not condoning gingertoys et al. I mean if the fansubbers (whose time and effort and money were spent tirelessly on the doramas) feel ripped off, then I respect that. I do think people doing "distro" though, at absurd prices, are just as bad, and do not have a right to complain.

There are so-called "distros" out there, who say they aren't making a profit, but charge about 5US$ per dvdr disk! I encountered one such individual who was "distro"'ing at 7$ per disk! I emailed the guy and asked him if I could send him blank media instead +SASE, and he refused. Don't you think these people are making a similar profit out of fansubs?

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Post by nixxienixxie » Dec 30th, '04, 06:37

How much does gingertoys sell his vcds/dvds for? Roughly about 1$ per vcd and 5$perdvd right?

Hehe, I think those are the going rates for "distro" now too.

In my country, lots of people sell fansubs. They don't disguise themselves as distros, they really SELL,as in advertise in forums and get orders. But they sell them for about 20cents (us$) per vcd and 2$ per dvd. I'm not saying this is right either, hehe. But it's better than what those distro distro people are doing.

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Post by AoiNeko » Dec 30th, '04, 07:59

Um, no, nixixenixxie. If (she, I think) was selling them at $1 per VCD or $5 per DVD, I don't THINK people would despise her as much. It's more like $10 and $20.. There's no way to consider her as just doing a distro at those prices.

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Re: why is it difficult to understand?

Post by iceberri » Dec 30th, '04, 15:37

zdoon wrote:
delsxyz wrote: ----Just realize. What we see and do here is ALL ILLEGAL no
matter how you slice it.
no **** sherlock! thank you for the enligtenment.
I don't think delsxyz was wrong in pointing out that everything is illegal. After all, there are plenty of people who still have not realized this; point in fact, this thread, 4th to last post of the page.
AoiNeko wrote:Um, no, nixixenixxie. If (she, I think) was selling them at $1 per VCD or $5 per DVD, I don't THINK people would despise her as much. It's more like $10 and $20.. There's no way to consider her as just doing a distro at those prices.
What I think nixixenixxie meant was that if you take the number of dvds that GT2 is selling by the price, you end up with each dvd costing around $5... but $5 for a dvd?? are you joking? Anybody who sells dvds for more than a buck is earning profit.

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Post by MoerkJ » Dec 30th, '04, 16:15

zdoon has his point here because delsyxz went very offtopic here. He was pointing out some fact that probably nobody affects here and that has nothing to do with bootlegging fansubs.

For more than a decade on almost every Audio CD, DVD, VHS is printed "Unauthorized copying, hiring, renting, public performance and broadcasting ... is prohibited". People who don't realized this have probably never bought an original. :glare:
.

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Re: why is it difficult to understand?

Post by nixxienixxie » Dec 31st, '04, 05:45

iceberri wrote: What I think nixixenixxie meant was that if you take the number of dvds that GT2 is selling by the price, you end up with each dvd costing around $5... but $5 for a dvd?? are you joking? Anybody who sells dvds for more than a buck is earning profit.
Exactly :) Thank you for clarifying,

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Post by AoiNeko » Dec 31st, '04, 14:12

Sorry, yes, somehow I was reading nixxienixxie's comment and taking it as per season, not per disk, and then forgetting my own point that GT2 takes these and expands them from avi's to low-quality DVD's, generating several discs per season. And what i was saying was NOT that I thought people would be more OK with GT2 if she charged $5 per individual disc. I meant that if she charged $5 for DVD's of of say, a 13 show series/season people would be less unhappy about it.

And don't get me wrong zdoon -- I don't LIKE what she's doing. Just pointing out that she's able to exist because there is a demand for what she does, and that the only way to destroy her is to address the demand. I thinknixxienixxie is putting a finger on it to mention people like Buruburu -- because while that doesn't help out with people who are buying from GT2 out of cluelessness, it does deprive her of people buying out of frustration.

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Post by 0nigiri » Dec 31st, '04, 22:55

I don't think its a very good idea to sell fansubs for profit. It is one major reason why film companies etc dislike the distribution by fansubbers and they seem to be getting sued alot these days. Has anyone seen the catastropy going on at lokitorrent.com? downloading is specifically for evaluation purposes and sometimes when i enjoy a series enough I would go out and buy the series. I don't like to see downloading/bit torrent sites to go down just because of some stupid greedy people.

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Post by pr » Jan 1st, '05, 06:45

Yesasia don't do any subbing, they are just retailer getting their oversea version stock from HK and etc.
neonkinpatsu wrote: Yesasia obtains rights to do so with the production companies before doing any subbing work and releasing.

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Jan 1st, '05, 07:08

kawai wrote:Yesasia don't do any subbing, they are just retailer getting their oversea version stock from HK and etc.
neonkinpatsu wrote: Yesasia obtains rights to do so with the production companies before doing any subbing work and releasing.
For these Korean dramas: All About Eve, Did We Really Love, Attic Cat (Rooftop Room Cat), Hotelier, Romance, Love Letter, and Damo, they did arrange for obtaining the rights and did arrange for the translating and subtitling of those dramas for distribution in North America. Those are what I was referring to. :glare: Before you correct me, maybe you should have read up on it.

http://us.yesasia.com/en/PrdDept.aspx/p ... /did-2957/

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Post by FantasyStar » Jan 1st, '05, 07:26

isn't that illegal?

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Post by miriko » Jan 1st, '05, 08:53

I am deadset against people selling fansubs for profit... I think its horrible and abusive and I think that it might discourage some fansubbers from doing good work.... I am always sooooooo greatful to the people who take their time to help us enjoy these forign language programs, and feel sorry for them that people are being abusive and reaping profits from theor work.....

I like people who set up distribution services where they help people who dont have necessary ressources (bandwith, HD space...) to acquire more dramas... But most of these people dont do it for profit, they do it for the price of the dvd and the shipping.... These people help people enjoy drama as wel and I think they are cool!!!!

I also think that trading is a great way to experience new series.... and make new friends!!!!

NO SELLING FANSUBS :x

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Post by nixxienixxie » Jan 1st, '05, 13:14

I like people who set up distribution services where they help people who dont have necessary ressources (bandwith, HD space...) to acquire more dramas... But most of these people dont do it for profit, they do it for the price of the dvd and the shipping....
miriko wrote:These people help people enjoy drama as wel and I think they are cool!!!!
I agree, distro is good as long as distributors maintain their position about not making a profit, by charging REASONABLE prices. 1US$ per CD and 5US$ (nevermind 7$!) per DVD is DEFINITELY making a profit. And those prices don't include shipping, mind you. You'd be surprised at how many "good" people there are out there with trading sites displaying the prices I mentioned. In my opinion, they are even worse than gingertoys in that they are not only profitting from work that is not theirs, but they are being hypocritical as well.
miriko wrote:I also think that trading is a great way to experience new series.... and make new friends!!!!
I agree with this too! I've just recently started doing trading, and it's alot of fun. And I think getting new things to add to my collection is better compensation for the trouble of burning discs and sending them to people, than a couple of bucks can ever be :)

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Post by lolipss » Jan 6th, '05, 12:36

another #$%$# who sells jdrama and kdrama

http://jdoramadvd.info/

:glare:

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Post by Jess » Jan 8th, '05, 10:16

Well although i dont sub any drama, here i am a user.
Still I feel angry for ppl that are selling the fansub and this is very unfair to the ppl who use their precious time to make an effort to translate it for those ppl who dont understand (which is me :)) I guess for those selling fansub in ebay is called pirate for selling pirated items and this has long exsited in the society where we call it night market. Indeed those ppl selling is wrong but what can we do ?Do we have those cyber law to prevent this? :x

Hmm..maybe those who do translating should honestly believe what they do for ppl is for benefits together.. about the ebay.. Dont because of this culprit pirate , you all stop what u all have been doing for good ! We do honestly and trully appreciate to all your hard work although this cannot we equally to the money but then "Heart Matters the Most". :roll

If you start to stop doing translation , yes u have no wrong but there will a lot of ppl not able to share the happiness that u have... (which might not be a concern to u) But maybe u jus fullfill someone dream and brighten someone day .. U know there is a proverb in chinese " wo wei ren ren, ren ren wei wo" which means I do good to everyone and everyone will do good to me . :-)

:-) In d-addicts we all share, here maybe u translate and then share and others doing their part by seeding and uploading other drama. In order to keep d-addicts this circle of thing have to go on... to make it work out (is like a production, if one dept is closed down the others cannot continue to work too) :-(
Anyway i know i havent done any sub here cos i dont understand many languages. So there might be others out there who think I dont understand the anger suffer by u all. I jus wan to say I do but then its still up to your choice to sub. :|

*If not here the culprit will stil find another place to make profit UNTIL he has been confronted and punished* Bad ppl is everywhere so the only think that we can do maybe jus to kick them away and ignore them or accept their presence rather to stop what we hve been doing for good. This is the real world .

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Post by pr » Jan 8th, '05, 15:23

Sorry, I didn't know they do that nowadays with all those korean waves.......
My source is from a radio interview the CEO had done in HK over a few years ago.
Anyway, since they are doing that for korean dorama any chances for them to negociate with the japanese stations?

Or is it thay it's a lot more easier to buy korean drama rights with more laxed conditions and english speaking rights seller?
neonkinpatsu wrote:
kawai wrote:Yesasia don't do any subbing, they are just retailer getting their oversea version stock from HK and etc.
neonkinpatsu wrote: Yesasia obtains rights to do so with the production companies before doing any subbing work and releasing.
For these Korean dramas: All About Eve, Did We Really Love, Attic Cat (Rooftop Room Cat), Hotelier, Romance, Love Letter, and Damo, they did arrange for obtaining the rights and did arrange for the translating and subtitling of those dramas for distribution in North America. Those are what I was referring to. :glare: Before you correct me, maybe you should have read up on it.


http://us.yesasia.com/en/PrdDept.aspx/p ... /did-2957/

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Post by busyizzy » Jan 8th, '05, 15:56

ar-a-mach wrote:and ppl buying it are stupid :(
Some people are also quite ignorant about it. Then again, many more are just cheap bastards that want to profit bootleggers and not rightfully give credit and money towards the people that actually worked hard to make the production - including the actual production and the fansubbers.

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Post by 206 » Jan 8th, '05, 19:18

I only read the first 7 pages but my feeling are that if there is a buck to be made somebody will do it like it or not.

The good part is that all of you who take the time to do the subs and timing have to do it out of your sincere desire to share something from another part of the world so that all of us downloaders can enjoy it and then share it again and again. I compare it to a artist or dancer who draws or dances for themselves and someone happens to come by and see it and enjoy it.

The bad part is that somebody else is enterprising enough to see that people enjoy it and will charge you a buck to see it.

I do think that making subs legal to sell will be so expensive that there will be no market for it as long as it is available for free. If they were not available I would indeed buy them as I have become addidcted to the dramas. In many ways those Ebay sellers have a market because there are still so many people with slow connection speeds and it is just faster to buy it than to download them. Again we all know how addicting these are so I do not blame the buyers.

I have not purchased any but I have indeed looked. I have seen some sites where they are more or less shared for the cost of a DVD and mail fees.

Again there is no good solution for those that do all the work and share it (for free) online. It would be a loss to us who don't understand the languages which is why I really appreciate those that can do it.

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Post by Olga_2005 » Jan 13th, '05, 20:13

You know what, I think that mostly before buying it people would want to look up for the product in the net (if they don't know exactly what it's about) to read a review or something.. if they're stupid enough to just buy it like that on ebay then it's their fault.

On the other hand, maybe some people are just lazy to download it all, like I know that girl who watches those dramas gust cuz I lend it to her, other ways she would's be downloading it.. u know what I mean..

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Jan 14th, '05, 19:06

kawai wrote:Sorry, I didn't know they do that nowadays with all those korean waves.......
My source is from a radio interview the CEO had done in HK over a few years ago.
Anyway, since they are doing that for korean dorama any chances for them to negociate with the japanese stations?

Or is it thay it's a lot more easier to buy korean drama rights with more laxed conditions and english speaking rights seller?
neonkinpatsu wrote:
kawai wrote:Yesasia don't do any subbing, they are just retailer getting their oversea version stock from HK and etc.
For these Korean dramas: All About Eve, Did We Really Love, Attic Cat (Rooftop Room Cat), Hotelier, Romance, Love Letter, and Damo, they did arrange for obtaining the rights and did arrange for the translating and subtitling of those dramas for distribution in North America. Those are what I was referring to. :glare: Before you correct me, maybe you should have read up on it.


http://us.yesasia.com/en/PrdDept.aspx/p ... /did-2957/
It doesn't look very likely to happen with Japanese shows, especially Fuji. There is a post somewhere in here with a pretty good and thorough rundown. The rights would be very difficult and expensive to get, if it were even to happen (which is doubtful).

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Post by Racoon » Jan 14th, '05, 19:52

I can understand that everybody is angry at people selling another people work.
I really think that whatever the system this people will try to make a profit from it anyway.
Fansub is really great and takes a lot of time so i really thanks people who are doing this all the time. ( thank you okumasama !!! for exemple !!! )
:lol
I really think that the best way to counter act the people who are selling is to share as much as we can. To tell the one that are interested that if they want something they can join in and ask on internet like here what they want.
The community for Jdrama is usually nice ! So...
When i was missing some show to finish series many people helped me. So i try to share as much as i can now.

Let's share and hope that those ebay sellers will get no clients in the end !!!
:evil:

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Post by Terryb » Jan 15th, '05, 00:54

I don't see why people get angry at people selling fansubs. (except for the fansubbers themselves) so I voted for 'neutral'.

face fact, anything that can be sold for money/profit will be sold : like those people who kidnap orphans/random kids around the place in Indonesia/Thailand to SELL (thanks to the tsunamis this is alot more easier now). Or the people who are selling DVD's of homemade Tsunami movies: disgusting, these are locals who are selling stuff like this to tourists
:O

if you want to be angry, be angry at the buyers. cos if there's no demand....

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Post by midnightrat » Jan 15th, '05, 01:25

The way i see it, the only way to get rid of the people selling fansubs is to make it so there's no profit in it. For example if someone were to sell the fansubs for $2-3, just to cover the hassle of putting up ebay ads, buring the dvd's and shipping, then people like gingertoy2 would not be able to make as much money.

Then if that person were to donate all the generated funds to say...d-addicts, then that would just be good karma.

Just a thought.

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Post by Calcifer » Jan 23rd, '05, 19:17

Wow...what a thread. And what a ton of good posts... :study:

I guess after reading through all this, there sadly doesn't seem to be much of a solution. As a fansubber who's subbed two series because I have a weird impulse to share things I've watched with friends (none of whom know my language), I can definitely relate to how people would feel when someone comes along and basically denies all the work you just did, and to add insult to injury, makes a tidy profit. Fansubbing to me is a nonprofit overcoming of a language barrier for the love of a drama, and unfortunately, this completely clashes with the mindset/morals of those who want to make some quick, easy bucks. But who asked fan subbers to be fan subbers, I guess, as a lot of people have said already.

My fantasy is that fansubbers could just all negotiate deals with the original companies and do what we enjoy 'legally.' It always struck me as weird how it's so obvious there're huge demands for eng subbed Asian dramas, yet the companies don't cash in. Why wouldn't they want to have good-quality subs for their stuff, expand their market and make more money? Then people can go be parttime subbers, be acknowledged/paid for their work, people will get their good quality, "legal" eng subbed stuff and people like ginger will be outta business...

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Post by groink » Mar 24th, '05, 01:11

All of a sudden, gingertoys2 stopped selling. The last item ended March 9. Strange... I wonder if he/she/it is out there right now making thousands of DVDRs, preparing for the next huge flood of sales?

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?V ... =30&rdir=0

--- groink

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Post by azn_wrx » Mar 24th, '05, 01:13

eh? omg he/she sells unliscensed anime........

wow...thats dispicable

im guessing maybe another name?

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Post by tokyo shounen » Mar 24th, '05, 01:23

im of course not surprised, but it sucks bad time, idiotas :x

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Post by DarReNz » Mar 24th, '05, 01:32

you guys can always write remarks in his e-bay account ....

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Post by Shinigami » Mar 24th, '05, 01:33

Terryb wrote:I don't see why people get angry at people selling fansubs. (except for the fansubbers themselves) so I voted for 'neutral'.

face fact, anything that can be sold for money/profit will be sold : like those people who kidnap orphans/random kids around the place in Indonesia/Thailand to SELL (thanks to the tsunamis this is alot more easier now). Or the people who are selling DVD's of homemade Tsunami movies: disgusting, these are locals who are selling stuff like this to tourists
:O

if you want to be angry, be angry at the buyers. cos if there's no demand....
uhmm .. maybe you sell fansub too .. so you feel sorry for people like gingertoy .. or maybe you are gingertoy .. ck ck ck ..

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seems like bootlegs off of ebay

Post by audipuff » Apr 3rd, '05, 23:06

One thing I've noticed while surfing on eBay the other day is how nobody seems to be selling bootleg doramas anymore. Big ones like Gingertoys2, and other sellers are not offering anything anymore.
Guess ebay finally took some action :blink

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Post by azn_wrx » Apr 3rd, '05, 23:14

i doubt it, the seller is proly doing what groink said and getting a whole bunch to sell at once

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Post by ddrimike » Apr 3rd, '05, 23:18

Just looked, gingertoy2 is still seeling Phoenix!!!

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Post by groink » Apr 3rd, '05, 23:39

gingertoys2 is going strong, selling 151 different bootlegged items. LOL, she's selling Classic Abarenbo Shogun... The bid claims to be the "full season", though it only constists of eps 1 through 13, all of which are Keal captures. She didn't do her homework... There are over 80 episodes of that season!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 90880&rd=1

--- groink

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Post by AggieDawg » Apr 4th, '05, 03:24

those kinds of people are just plain pathetic! :x

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Post by jholic » Apr 4th, '05, 06:34

merged with original 'selling fansubs on ebay' discussion.


btw, you guys can discuss preventive measures in this thread:
http://www.d-addicts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10628

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what are some consequences they can have?

Post by audipuff » Apr 8th, '05, 22:31

If they get caught, do they get thrown in jail, or what are the policies? There don't seem to be a real strong policy about stopping bootlegs for some reason?

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Post by DonlySuperman » Apr 9th, '05, 05:03

I think if you pronounce your name a "fansubber" then that means that you're a fan of something and that you would do everything in your power to spread what you believe in. But those who see your work should be thankful and possibly donate money. At least a simple thank you for appreciation would be good.

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Post by AggieDawg » Apr 10th, '05, 23:06

there seems to be another one of those F***ers out on ebay. They sure work fast as you can see here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... eName=WDVW
:x

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Post by DarReNz » Apr 10th, '05, 23:09

can we file a complaint to ebay ?

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Post by :bunny: » Apr 10th, '05, 23:54

yea...there are lots of people in ebay selling stuffs downloaded from here, same source, same quality, but cost a LOT :x :x :x

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Post by aNToK » Apr 11th, '05, 00:14

Hmm... Fully e-subbed version of Harvard Love Story? We don't even have ep 16 here yet. Makes me wonder....

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Post by LittleGreenGrasshopper » Apr 11th, '05, 00:16

aNToK wrote:Hmm... Fully e-subbed version of Harvard Love Story? We don't even have ep 16 here yet. Makes me wonder....
We do... it was just hot off the press :P

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Post by aNToK » Apr 11th, '05, 00:59

Man, didn't see that before I posted. Cool, LSIH tonight!!!

Hmm... I was kicking around the idea of doing something on E-Bay for Legit dvd and vcd stuff. I have some family in China who could help on that end, but I have no clue about suppliers, etc. When I've bought stuff, it seems to have been shipped from Malaysia, but the person I've bought from in the past says that she's started shipping from here in CA now. Everything's been sealed and stamped.

Does anyone know where to look for legitimate channels for movie and dvd releases, or is E-Bay just polluted with too many knock-off artists to even think about being profitable?


Hmm, off-topic I guess. Oh well, I'm curious....

On topic: People who profit off of other's fanwork suck. Especially when they try to pass their stuff off as legit and don't even bother giving credit to those who've done the work.

Is Gingertoys2 still pulling her crap? That's one person I'd LOVE to see put out of business.

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Post by yt_toshi » Apr 11th, '05, 01:41

aNToK wrote:Man, didn't see that before I posted. Cool, LSIH tonight!!!

Hmm... I was kicking around the idea of doing something on E-Bay for Legit dvd and vcd stuff. I have some family in China who could help on that end, but I have no clue about suppliers, etc. When I've bought stuff, it seems to have been shipped from Malaysia, but the person I've bought from in the past says that she's started shipping from here in CA now. Everything's been sealed and stamped.

Does anyone know where to look for legitimate channels for movie and dvd releases, or is E-Bay just polluted with too many knock-off artists to even think about being profitable?


Hmm, off-topic I guess. Oh well, I'm curious....

On topic: People who profit off of other's fanwork suck. Especially when they try to pass their stuff off as legit and don't even bother giving credit to those who've done the work.

Is Gingertoys2 still pulling her crap? That's one person I'd LOVE to see put out of business.
Here's a seller who you might be interested in on Ebay: link
This person sells legit dvd's and vcd's. Who knows, this person might help you find suppliers (you might have to email the person about it). :-)

As to Gingertoys2, she still at it with selling her crap. If there's was a way for someone to come up with a solution to stopping people like her from selling this stuff, that would be great. :x

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Post by aNToK » Apr 11th, '05, 02:40

Cool, I'll check it out.

Gingertoys? Hmm.... Get a group of folks, undersell the hell out of her little **** ass, then donate any small profits to the site to support it. With a big, fat "Don't buy from Gingertoys2 as she's ripping off everything she sells: Support the ones who actually make these series possible!!!"

I like it, but that would probably open up an nice little legal can of worms, though it doesn't seem to have stopped her (him?) yet. Exactly how does one continue to sell obviously pirated goods for so long there? No wonder E-bay keeps getting sued...

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Post by Paniolagirl » Apr 11th, '05, 05:06

LittleGreenGrasshopper wrote:
aNToK wrote:Hmm... Fully e-subbed version of Harvard Love Story? We don't even have ep 16 here yet. Makes me wonder....
We do... it was just hot off the press :P
That is why it just got listed on Ebay.

Maybe I should sell my copy with custom menus and labels. How much you think I get muhahahahah. :lol :P

All these people should be prosecuted.

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Post by Paniolagirl » Apr 11th, '05, 05:38

Here are a couple more people selling "Love Story in Harvard with english subtitles.

This seller (won_bing_5) is selling this on 4 dvd-r's. Looks like data backup.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... eName=WDVW


This seller (coconut20003) besides selling "Love Story in Harvard". is also selling from their collection.
I. DVDs (w/ English Subtitles):
1. Sweet 18
2. Romance/Lovers in Paris
3. Damo
4. Memories
5. All in
6. My love Pazzi
7. Bright successful girl
8. Goodbye my love
9. Lover
10. Love letter
11. Firebird/Phoenix
12. Stairway to Heaven
13. I'm sorry, I love you
14. Ireland
15. What happened in Bali/Hearts in Bali/Something happened in Bali
16. Full house
17. Pretty laddy
18. More beautiful than a flower
19. Winter Sonata
20. All About Eve
21. Hotelier
22. Sang-doo, Let's go to school
23. The Nine-tailed Fox
24. Thousand years of love
25. Oh! Pil-Seung
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... eName=WDVW

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Post by DarReNz » Apr 11th, '05, 05:52

lol d-addicts got mentioned in gingertoys2 feedback page


For a title that is not availalbe here I think you should really check.
Seller gingertoys2 ( 5361) Jan-02-05 16:03 6353798810
Reply by npena80: titles are fansubs, easily downloaded from the internet: www.d-addicts.com Jan-02-05 18:03
Follow-up by gingertoys2: NO ONE HAS DONE YOU WRONG. CHECK VERY VERY CAREFULLY WHO IS ABOUT YOU.

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Post by Jannah » Apr 11th, '05, 06:57

DarReNz wrote:Follow-up by gingertoys2: NO ONE HAS DONE YOU WRONG. CHECK VERY VERY CAREFULLY WHO IS ABOUT YOU.
And what is that supposed to mean? :blink

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Post by yt_toshi » Apr 11th, '05, 11:21

Jannah wrote:
DarReNz wrote:Follow-up by gingertoys2: NO ONE HAS DONE YOU WRONG. CHECK VERY VERY CAREFULLY WHO IS ABOUT YOU.
And what is that supposed to mean? :blink
Sound's like bad English to me :blink:

Furthermore, if you read the following post from npena80's comment section, you can see that gingertoys2 can't even back herself up and admit that she is selling work done by fansubbers. That's pathetic :x

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Post by nyichiban » Apr 11th, '05, 12:26

gingertoys2 made some serious money! I remember around last year june he only had like 100 something feedback. Boy did he sell tons of stuff that people worked hard on. A little thing you guys should know. He used to sell just anime until he got shut down numerous times for selling licensed anime and he kept quiet for a while and released on dramas. I have contacted ebay when I saw a listing of his anime that was a fansub that I had done! Just being curious I bought the damn DVD and low and behold it was my translation word for word. I email him back and no reply whatsoever. But what he does do with the episodes is that he cuts out the OP/ED and sometimes middle. I mean a watermark throughout the whole episode would probably kill our viewing pleasure but if it's to stop people like this then hey, I don't mind being a little annoyed looking at dramas.

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