What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

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What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

Angry
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Happy
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Neutral
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Other
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Total votes: 325

lolipss
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Post by lolipss » Nov 28th, '04, 16:54

hehe no apologizies needed okumasama, i understand your point :)

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Post by okumasama » Nov 28th, '04, 16:58

voice of reason wrote:Forget about ownership of Subtitles. Report him for selling illegal pirated copywrite material, then report him to the japanese tv companies.
Report him to as many people as possible and he will not just get a fine he will go to prison for fraud.
Report him for selling illegal pirated copywrite material: I did that infinitive times to eBay by reporting both items and both sending email to Ebay.

report him to the japanese tv companies: Emails have been send to, Fuji and TBS. No reply. If you read my posts on the first page of this thread you can know why they won't care if someobody sell their TV programs ouside of Japan.
In addition email was sent to Kiku TV but no reply again.

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i am mortified

Post by wakopin » Nov 28th, '04, 17:01

:pale: This is disgusting. These snakes ruin it for everyone. I am surprised that the Japanese TV Networks haven't found out where this bum lives and sent a yakuza welcoming party. Who knows, maybe it is org. crime.

A big big big thank you to all the fan subbers out there, you make me very happy!!! I am sorry this evil ratass is making a profit off your hard work. I only hope that you keep doing good things...

I was surprised to find out that Japanese TV stations really don't care about fansubs. That makes me feel ok about watching them. Maybe it would be a good idea for Japanese TV Networks to work with fansubs to create an authorized, but low price, version of the TV dramas for the international market. Fansubs are usually so much better than those official subs from the TV stations. The fansubs capture a better translation of the meaning of the words than the official subs and usually they are less awkward.

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NatNat
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Post by NatNat » Nov 28th, '04, 18:25

not to play devil's advocate...

but honestly, you guys are sticking up for those who are getting ripped off because they're too lazy to find out about bittorrent?!

Also, do you guys know anything about hustle? I'm not saying all fansub sellers are starving cretins living in alleyways and I'm not condoning their actions. But do you guys know what it's like to struggle to make money? You end up doing really messed up things without thinking about it thoroughly.

End Point:
Save your high-handed morals for sunday school. Not everyone can be as flawless as the "Righteous."

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Post by pockiiee » Nov 28th, '04, 18:47

NatNat wrote:not to play devil's advocate...

but honestly, you guys are sticking up for those who are getting ripped off because they're too lazy to find out about bittorrent?!

But do you guys know what it's like to struggle to make money? You end up doing really messed up things without thinking about it thoroughly.

End Point:
Save your high-handed morals for sunday school. Not everyone can be as flawless as the "Righteous."
I didn't mean they were too lazy, just that they aren't as computer literate as we are. Might be a news flash, but not everyone who likes drama knows their way around a computer - I'm thinking especially of older fans. Believe me, I know, I've taught computer classes to these people at one stage - had to be taught how to click a mouse - I'm not kidding. She kept lifting it up :) It's really easy to call these people lazy, but the fact is that not all people are computer literate. Surfing the net is the height of their abilities, and Ebay is really well known, what with comercials, etc.

My point being , would you pay for something if you knew how to get the same product for free, and that the makers of the product actually wanted you to enjoy it for free? Doesn't make sense. Would you call your grandmother too lazy to find out about bittorrent? I don't know, maybe I'm wearing rose coloured glasses but I think the majority of those who order just don't know.

About your second point - yeah yeah, it's hard to make money. Cry me a river. But even so, profiting from something that isn't yours is not right. Sell your own translations, go ahead, nobody is stopping you. But when you sell someone else's hard work which they had no intention of selling you upset them, and rightly so, I think. And to top that off, the prices are really high on Ebay - we're not talking about pocket change. Sombody else did a calculation awhile back.

Notice I am talking about translations - It's hard work. I've done it (from Dutch-English but even so - hard, time consuming )And selling them will just piss off those trnaslating and stop fansubs alltogether. Well maybe not, but worse case scenario. Then Gingertoys is out of a job, and we don't get any more lovely fansubs. :(

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Post by zdoon » Nov 28th, '04, 19:00

NatNat wrote:not to play devil's advocate...

but honestly, you guys are sticking up for those who are getting ripped off because they're too lazy to find out about bittorrent?!
do you understand that gingertoys is reading everything in this thread? he/she is a regular browser, for certain. i don't like the idea of putting my time, work, and effort, knowing some dipshit twat is waiting for me to complete a series so that he can start selling copies of it on ebay as soon as i've finished it. there's nothing else to consider.

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Post by Daish » Nov 28th, '04, 19:04

I'd just like to say that I'm against this, but

its not the first time these things happen, and as for making a profit for other ppl's work, thats not old as well. Haven't you seen those pirate cd shops and such? its not much different.

Whats really sad imo is that even with all this effort to try to stop him, in most likely hood it would cause him little to no problem at all (never mind consequences/punishment). Create a new nick and he/she is back in business. Hell even if you manage to convince him its not worth his/her time anymore, he would have walked out of this ordeal with at least 50k profit.

I guess as long as there's people that are willing to pay over and over again, he/she isn't going away
Doasinfinity ^^

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rainidy
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Post by rainidy » Nov 28th, '04, 19:11

zdoon wrote:
NatNat wrote:not to play devil's advocate...

but honestly, you guys are sticking up for those who are getting ripped off because they're too lazy to find out about bittorrent?!
do you understand that gingertoys is reading everything in this thread? he/she is a regular browser, for certain. i don't like the idea of putting my time, work, and effort, knowing some dipshit twat is waiting for me to complete a series so that he can start selling copies of it on ebay as soon as i've finished it. there's nothing else to consider.
IMO, I think it's wrong that people are selling other's people work for a profit. But it's not fair if people stop making english subtitles just because of those people. If people stop fansubbing, many people out there will not be ale to enjoy the show. We appreciate your work and all the fansubbers out there.

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Post by zdoon » Nov 28th, '04, 19:33

rainidy wrote:IMO, I think it's wrong that people are selling other's people work for a profit. But it's not fair if people stop making english subtitles just because of those people. If people stop fansubbing, many people out there will not be ale to enjoy the show. We appreciate your work and all the fansubbers out there.
I'm not saying everyone doing fansubs for this board should stop. But they should be aware of exactly what the situation is. Someone is ripping them off and this is not some remote possibility, an occurrence that might happen months or years down the line. It happens as soon as they're done with the series. Fansubbers are in some sense directly working for gingertoys2 and that's not a good feeling. What would you do if you were in the midst of fansubbing a show? I don't know if you've noticed but I'm pretty punctual about the subs. I don't release episodes once or twice every two or three months. How would that make you feel knowing this was benefitting some seller on ebay? Do you continue work? Certainly you'd say at least something about it, right?

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Post by pockiiee » Nov 28th, '04, 20:10

zdoon wrote: Fansubbers are in some sense directly working for gingertoys2 and that's not a good feeling. What would you do if you were in the midst of fansubbing a show? I don't know if you've noticed but I'm pretty punctual about the subs. I don't release episodes once or twice every two or three months. How would that make you feel knowing this was benefitting some seller on ebay? Do you continue work? Certainly you'd say at least something about it, right?
Yeah, you're right. I can understand how you feel about it, I mean you're not translating and making subs to put money in this person's pocket.

In a strange way I think this week has shown both the best and the worst of what this community can do - the best in the really great donations to get JEM a new laptop, which just made me feel all warm and fuzzy, and the worst being this.

Well, I have a friend high up at EBAY UK - I'll send him a message when he's online to try and get some inside info on monday and keep you all posted. I'm not going to go and ask for this person's details (although you might want me to and I'm sure he can do it) cause that may lead him to getting in trouble, but I'll see what the rules are and if he can speed up a process, etc. maybe.

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Post by mizune » Nov 28th, '04, 20:25

So I'm probably the only person that thinks this, but....here are a couple ideas to counteract the sellers, or at the very least decrease their profit margins....

1. Stop the really high quality video captures. Sure, we all want to see everything in excrutiating, DVD quality detail, but that only improves the level of the pirater's product and the price he can get for it. If people really want to see the series in all it's blazing glory, than they can buy it and support the original creators (even though they aren't subbed, for which the solution is below). If the pirate wants to offer "high quality" products, as gingertoys seems to want since he is going through the effort of repackaging everything in an aesthetically pleasing way, then lower video quality might decrease his desire to use your captures as a source. He'd have to spend the money himself to get DVDs for quality captures or find another video source. Either way, it makes life harder for him and cuts down on the "one-stop" shopping.

2. Offer soft-subs and copyright *those* instead of the hard-coded files. The video rips, no matter how you look at it, are illegal. The subs are an individual entity unto itself so if somebody is selling your subs along with a rip, that is definitely something you can take legal action for. At the same time, you can keep yourself out of the whole "Did _I_ violate the original copyright to begin with?" issue that may come up (doubtful) if you were to actually pursue legal action. I haven't been looking at what gingertoys has been selling (i.e. directly playable in a DVD player or just individual computer files) but another added benefit of the soft subs is that unless gingertoys goes through the trouble of re-encoding the video, his customers will have to go through the additional step of figuring out how to play the subs back. If his customers are all as computer illiterate as a lot of ppl seem to be assuming are, then this might not work for them. If he re-encodes the video with the subs, even if he strips away any of the credits you insert into the soft subs, unless he goes through and rechecks every line of dialouge, there will still be enough of the translations left to substantiate plagarism or other copyright infringement.

To tie in with the lower quality caps, if you own the DVDs or whatever, you can always rip your own videos and watch them youself with the subs. Kind of a pain, and pretty expensive, but that is perfectly legal (because most of the legal issues with copyright goes towards distribution).

Basically, the idea is to make the pirate's life harder.
Combine the two ideas together and I think you have a means for sharing with the community without adding too muchto his bottom line. Hopefully, the addition of small barriers will reduce their willingness to steal your stuff. And if it doesn't stop them...well....there's really nothing else you can do about it...

EDIT: Another idea would be to encode the files in a container file that is less accessible than divx or xvid. Something that would require the viewer to install extra codecs like matroska (sp?) or .ogg/.ogm or whatever they are...Although the support forum here may end up getting overloaded then... :lol

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Post by pockiiee » Nov 28th, '04, 20:46

mizune wrote:So I'm probably the only person that thinks this,..
nah, Mizune, sounds like a good idea to me. I might be one of the only ones out there that really doesn't care too much about quality - if I love a series I buy the DVD.

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Post by okumasama » Nov 28th, '04, 21:29

mizune wrote:So I'm probably the only person that thinks this, but....here are a couple ideas to counteract the sellers, or at the very least decrease their profit margins....

1. Stop the really high quality video captures. Sure, we all want to see everything in excrutiating, DVD quality detail, but that only improves the level of the pirater's product and the price he can get for it. If people really want to see the series in all it's blazing glory, than they can buy it and support the original creators (even though they aren't subbed, for which the solution is below). If the pirate wants to offer "high quality" products, as gingertoys seems to want since he is going through the effort of repackaging everything in an aesthetically pleasing way, then lower video quality might decrease his desire to use your captures as a source. He'd have to spend the money himself to get DVDs for quality captures or find another video source. Either way, it makes life harder for him and cuts down on the "one-stop" shopping.

2. Offer soft-subs and copyright *those* instead of the hard-coded files. The video rips, no matter how you look at it, are illegal. The subs are an individual entity unto itself so if somebody is selling your subs along with a rip, that is definitely something you can take legal action for. At the same time, you can keep yourself out of the whole "Did _I_ violate the original copyright to begin with?" issue that may come up (doubtful) if you were to actually pursue legal action. I haven't been looking at what gingertoys has been selling (i.e. directly playable in a DVD player or just individual computer files) but another added benefit of the soft subs is that unless gingertoys goes through the trouble of re-encoding the video, his customers will have to go through the additional step of figuring out how to play the subs back. If his customers are all as computer illiterate as a lot of ppl seem to be assuming are, then this might not work for them. If he re-encodes the video with the subs, even if he strips away any of the credits you insert into the soft subs, unless he goes through and rechecks every line of dialouge, there will still be enough of the translations left to substantiate plagarism or other copyright infringement.

To tie in with the lower quality caps, if you own the DVDs or whatever, you can always rip your own videos and watch them youself with the subs. Kind of a pain, and pretty expensive, but that is perfectly legal (because most of the legal issues with copyright goes towards distribution).

Basically, the idea is to make the pirate's life harder.
Combine the two ideas together and I think you have a means for sharing with the community without adding too muchto his bottom line. Hopefully, the addition of small barriers will reduce their willingness to steal your stuff. And if it doesn't stop them...well....there's really nothing else you can do about it...

EDIT: Another idea would be to encode the files in a container file that is less accessible than divx or xvid. Something that would require the viewer to install extra codecs like matroska (sp?) or .ogg/.ogm or whatever they are...Although the support forum here may end up getting overloaded then... :lol
They sell on DVD-Video so suggestion 2 is impossible (changing codec, releasing in softsubs or whatever). But about number 1 if you get a look in my previous posts in this thread (I know it is really boring since this thread is getting so long) you will found that this is excacly the only way and you are very right. As for my group I have copyrighted the subtitles we CREATED (not transcribed or copied) as the law allows me to do. All 5 releases' subtitles are now fully copyrighted and I'm also now an active member of eBay's vero program, which allows me to pre-intedicate items that I have the copyrights for and I don't want them to be sold there without my persmission. Then I can make an "inside" report and they will imediatly (unlike the normal report) remove that listing and take action. The eBay of course will only remove the listing (won't take additional action) if that happens only once. If that sellers try to sell again the same (or other) of your copyrighted material then they can shut him down. I can of course take imidiate legal action with the company I have my material copyrighted with. That's of course only covers our releases and can't do anything about anybody that sell's other funsubbs. I'm not talking about JEM or KIKU rips, since as I said before only the channels can take action against that.
Copyrighting material of course creates cost fees for me. Each CD for copyright is at least 30$ (depending on its contents) and I can't copyright each subtitle file seperetaly (actually I can but I have to pay 30$ for each episode's subtitle). That means that I have to complete a series before I give the chance to sellers to get those in practice I could release for example episode 2 when I'm doing episode 6. That way I can copyright all the episode's subtitles with one fee that I could possibly afford...
Anyway there is a plan for my group to offer these subtitles for sell in future along with the original DVD Box set (not crappy homemade DVD-R) for a low price so I hope some people in here will just buy it to cover both the registration fees for me and also some advandage for my work, so they will give me a motivation to do more and more. Of course I will never make that compulsory to anybody, I will still release my works here as normal for everybody... I know some people will like to have the original even if they have the ripped one downloaded from here because I'm one of these people that even if I have tons of DVD-Rs around filled with dramas, I sitll have lots of original dvd boxset filling my room :P

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Post by Ruroshin » Nov 28th, '04, 22:23

Someone should just sell the exact same series as that guy on ebay but only for the cost of the media and shipping. That should put him out of business :P

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Post by mizune » Nov 28th, '04, 22:30

Well, I don't do any video encoding myself, but I do know that any idiot can re-encode divx or xvid to DVD video. There are lots of utilities and such for that. Heck, even stand-alone players can do it now. But I don't think I've ever seen anything for converting an mkv or ogg/ogm file to DVD video. I may be wrong, though.

Anyways, with that said, I still think changing the encoding format might possibly help, although it might require time to get used to tweaking a new encoding routine and also may be inconvenient for users here....

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Post by amrayu » Nov 28th, '04, 22:57

okumasama wrote: They sell on DVD-Video so suggestion 2 is impossible (changing codec, releasing in softsubs or whatever).
I think you misunderstood mizune's post about her second suggestion. What she is saying is fansubbers should upload files using codecs/containers such as matroska or ogg, since these files are more difficult to encode to DVD-video (mpeg2). Thus, it'll be harder for sellers such as gingertoys to sell on ebay. For example, i downloaded summer scent (kdrama) from aznV.net which is Rumxz site. His files are all in an OGG container (format). Converting these files to MPEG2 was difficult, because the audio was always out of sync. There are ways to get around the problem but it takes patience. So, do these sellers have this patience?

I think this is a good suggestion made by mizune.
Daish wrote:its not the first time these things happen, and as for making a profit for other ppl's work, thats not old as well. Haven't you seen those pirate cd shops and such? its not much different.
I agree 100%. As a fansubber myself, I am angry. But there is only so much energy that I would want to waste on this topic. Truthfully, I don't think there will ever be a solution to this problem. Unless, fansubbers stop distributing their works online. The music, movie and entertainment business in general has a black market for pirated copies where people make profits off of other's work. The fansubbing world is no different. The only thing that could possibly deter sellers, is legal action.
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Post by mizune » Nov 28th, '04, 23:31

amrayu wrote: I think you misunderstood mizune's post about her second suggestion.
Hahaha...no he didn't...When I first wrote the post I didn't know they were converting straight to DVD format until he mentioned so... But it all works out anyways... :p

And I don't tend to advertise, so how did you know that me is a she? :fear: :lol
Last edited by mizune on Nov 28th, '04, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MoerkJ » Nov 28th, '04, 23:32

We had a similiar discussion on jdorama.com almost one year ago. Too bad that nothing has changed since then. :crazy:

IMHO, there are only two ways to make an end to this... either legal actions as suggested several times already (which seems to be difficult or uneffective) or by the laws of the market as suggested by Ruroshin. (selling everything like gingertoys2 but much cheaper).

And the bored ones among you can google for "gingertoys2" and find more stories about that guy on the web... it's a neverending story, probably because the actions are "not illegal enough" for ebay to take actions... :glare:
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Post by okumasama » Nov 28th, '04, 23:37

amrayu wrote:
okumasama wrote: They sell on DVD-Video so suggestion 2 is impossible (changing codec, releasing in softsubs or whatever).
I think you misunderstood mizune's post about her second suggestion. What she is saying is fansubbers should upload files using codecs/containers such as matroska or ogg, since these files are more difficult to encode to DVD-video (mpeg2). Thus, it'll be harder for sellers such as gingertoys to sell on ebay. For example, i downloaded summer scent (kdrama) from aznV.net which is Rumxz site. His files are all in an OGG container (format). Converting these files to MPEG2 was difficult, because the audio was always out of sync. There are ways to get around the problem but it takes patience. So, do these sellers have this patience?
Sorry I just wrote half line about that because I misclicked when I was writing and had to rewrite everything again so I just wrote out the point. Yes it might by more difficult but I won't take the chances. There are ways to convert through every possible encode to another. Even Real media can be converted and once done for first time, it will just become a common process. And I am quite sure he will find the patience to do just 10-12 encodes for each drama to sell lots of copies of that for 20$ each. There is always the analog way too... Just needs two PCs and a video input card and he won't care for the format... I think he got enought money already to buy those. Encoding doesn't seem the solution but well said and suggested anyway...

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Post by rivenrock » Nov 28th, '04, 23:54

It does make me angry, but I think it’s inevitable. Even free things will be sold if there is demand for them and the people buying them don’t have access to them as a free item. And what you (and we) see as a labour of love, they have no feeling about, so it isn’t likely that pointing out to them that what they’re doing is unethical is going to change anything.

That’s why I think the best defence against people like that is to continue to spread the word about places like d-addicts, etc, where you can get these things for free. When the demand disappears, so will the sellers.

Which is also a really good reason to seed as often as you can – this also decreases the demand for these dramas by letting as many people as possible get them for free. Even people who trade drama for drama (without getting payment for them) will have more to share around.

I also am quite okay with the idea someone’s already given of fansubbers themselves opening an eBay store, and if you can find a legal way to do that I would certainly support it. I like getting my dramas for free, but it’s fair to pay the people who put the time and effort in.
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Post by amrayu » Nov 29th, '04, 00:05

mizune wrote:
amrayu wrote: I think you misunderstood mizune's post about her second suggestion.
Hahaha...no he didn't...When I first wrote the post I didn't know they were converting straight to DVD format until he mentioned so... But it all works out anyways... :p

And I don't tend to advertise, so how did you know that me is a she? :fear: :lol
:D i have a good memory. i remember from one of your posts before?

@okumasama.
OGG and matroska are not popular formats (containers). So, it takes more effort to convert them to MPEG2. Another way, is to use an audio codec that isn't as popular as mp3. Taking these extra steps will make rip off sellers' lives more difficult. I guess this is what mizune was trying to get to.
We should look at the anime fansubbing world. Try to find companies that are willing to license dramas, sub and distribute them. I wouldn't mind working for one of those companies. :lol
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Post by okumasama » Nov 29th, '04, 00:13

amrayu wrote: Try to find companies that are willing to license dramas, sub and distribute them. I wouldn't mind working for one of those companies. :lol
We are so bloody similar here! I think you read on my previous post that there is a serious direct contact to be able to do that. Time will show ....

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Post by amrayu » Nov 29th, '04, 00:16

Okay, I've done some research on gingertoys2. Here's something that I found.

Taken from: http://sailorspork.8m.net/
Bootleg Alert Update: hkheero and gingertoys2 have pulled their auctions containing Sailor Spork subs. Thanks for everyone who contacted them and asked them to stop, you all really helped. :)
So, if we gang up on gingertoys2.. email them to stop distributing fansubs, at least some dramas will be taken off??? there's also the threat of, "hey stop it, or we'll stop fansubbing, and you'll ruin it for everyone."
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Post by deadhippo » Nov 29th, '04, 01:17

http://jdorama.com/viewtopic_3702_0.htm ... 2947fcf836

heres an interesting thread
it seems that one seller may have stopped :D

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Post by zdoon » Nov 29th, '04, 01:36

deadhippo wrote:http://jdorama.com/viewtopic_3702_0.htm ... 2947fcf836

heres an interesting thread
it seems that one seller may have stopped :D
MoerkJ already posted that thread.

Ironically enough it starts in February and the last post is in August and it reads (somewhat omnimously):
gingertoys2

is back and selling DVD-R in massive quantity on eBay.

It will take a very long long time if ever to take this seller down since this seller is a power seller.

power seller? funny.


:lol

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Post by tailchaser » Nov 29th, '04, 01:40

For translators who may be put off by these Ebay sales, perhaps you should sub every episode but the last one. In most dramas the last episode is not all that great anyway. The characters are usually madly rushing around trying to tie up loose ends so that we can have a happy ending. Truly fraudulent sellers like gingertoys probably wouldn't care and just sell it anyway without mentioning the lack of subs on the last episode, but others may be disuaded. I mean how do you sell a DVD like that? Haha.

It would be nice if there were a video format not recognized by any format conversion software. We could create our own format and modify a (software) player to play it. If someone wanted to convert it to MPEG2 they would have to reverse engineer our format and write their own converter.

Or how about encrypting the subtitles? Even a simple ROT13 cipher would be highly effective. It would be a bit of a PITA for the rest of us though. We would have to keep pausing the movie and type the text into a ROT13 decrypter in order to understand it.

Another thought would again involve many of us getting throwaway Ebay accounts, bidding on his auctions and then leaving very negative feedback like "seller never shipped product" or "seller shipped nonfunctioning DVD" etc. If enough of us did that it might be enough to at least stop some people from buying until he is forced to change is Ebay nick.

Of course, there's always the old "break his (or her) arms and legs" disuasion method. That one usually works actually, but it's expensive. Even something as simple as a car bomb may tempt gingertoys to seek greener pastures.

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Post by mtlandis » Nov 29th, '04, 02:26

I must agree with you guys. Selling work that is not your own for a profit is wrong!

I run a Yahoo group for Korean Drama addicts. There are many members who either can't or won't DL dramas with subtitles. They often request CDs from me. I have charged for them BUT I only charge for the materials and shipping. The most profit I ever made on a CD was $.50 because the postal service website miscalculated the shipping. LOL I felt bad about that money.

In the spring I intend to get a new tower with a DVD burner so I can put them on DVD for my group members. At no point would I ever consider making a profit off of any of this. The only reason I do it at all is to share these great dramas with others who aren't as techno-savvy.

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Nov 29th, '04, 02:50

mtlandis wrote:I must agree with you guys. Selling work that is not your own for a profit is wrong!

I run a Yahoo group for Korean Drama addicts. There are many members who either can't or won't DL dramas with subtitles. They often request CDs from me. I have charged for them BUT I only charge for the materials and shipping. The most profit I ever made on a CD was $.50 because the postal service website miscalculated the shipping. LOL I felt bad about that money.

In the spring I intend to get a new tower with a DVD burner so I can put them on DVD for my group members. At no point would I ever consider making a profit off of any of this. The only reason I do it at all is to share these great dramas with others who aren't as techno-savvy.
Good to see someone here from my area :) I live in Philly but I work in Delaware County (Springfield, right past Broomall).

Mainly, the distinction we are trying to make is that people doing distro, which is what you are doing, is not frowned upon. Distro is for minimal (a matter of cents maybe) or no profit, for the cost of media and shipping. Ebayers are definitely out for profit, otherwise, why would they pay an auction insertion fee and charge way more than the cost to make them? They aren't doing it to help anyone....they are doing it for some fast $. That is what most of the people here are angry about, copying someone else's work in mass quantities and selling them off to make personal profit.

Btw guys, gingertoys2 seems to be one of the biggies that hasn't been stopped yet. A lot of the others that used to be around have either been shut down, were suspended and never returned, just disappeared, or at least changed their nicks. I am starting to wonder if Ebay keeps gingertoys2 just because of the profit THEY are making from all of those auction insertion fees. I have written to Ebay about gingertoys2 and others before. Nothing ever came of it. I actually wrote Ebay a lengthy one last night, with links to TV stations that aired these shows and/or have them on DVD, as well as Yesasia. I'm sure others have provided Ebay with enough information in the past, so if the don't do anything, then it's obvious they don't give a **** (which they probably don't). All they have to do is just look at the feedback that has complaints of being home-burned disks.

If all else fails, maybe we should do what groink did: Email the TV stations and other sources from which gingertoys2 is selling captures and copies of. Hmm, just a thought...
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Post by lolipss » Nov 29th, '04, 03:05

Ruroshin wrote:Someone should just sell the exact same series as that guy on ebay but only for the cost of the media and shipping. That should put him out of business :P
maybe we should introduce buruburu drama service to the ebay buyer :P

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Post by kali4niaguy » Nov 29th, '04, 05:47

there's no way to really stop any1 from selling fansubs on ebay or other sites bcuz if u shut them down 1 day, they'll just open another the next. but mayb if we r persistent enuf, we can annoy them so much, they'll stop forever.

i was thinking of starting a thread where all d-addicts members, jdorama.com members and members of other drama fan sites, just all ban together and boycott a seller. what we do is select a seller, 1 a week or something, then all the members target that 1 seller by e-mailing him and e-mailing complaints to ebay about that seller. i'm thinking if we all did it together, it'd b more effective. there's other things that i'm missing that would make this even more effective, but i just can't think of anything else at the moment. i know this idea has been suggested already, but mayb we should try it!?

it's sad when the actions of a few bad ppl ruin things for the all the good ppl. but i guess that's how society works. :x

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Post by NatNat » Nov 29th, '04, 07:40

pockiiee wrote: I didn't mean they were too lazy, just that they aren't as computer literate as we are. Might be a news flash, but not everyone who likes drama knows their way around a computer - I'm thinking especially of older fans. Believe me, I know, I've taught computer classes to these people at one stage - had to be taught how to click a mouse - I'm not kidding. She kept lifting it up :) It's really easy to call these people lazy, but the fact is that not all people are computer literate. Surfing the net is the height of their abilities, and Ebay is really well known, what with comercials, etc.

About your second point - yeah yeah, it's hard to make money. Cry me a river. But even so, profiting from something that isn't yours is not right. Sell your own translations, go ahead, nobody is stopping you. But when you sell someone else's hard work which they had no intention of selling you upset them, and rightly so, I think. And to top that off, the prices are really high on Ebay - we're not talking about pocket change. Sombody else did a calculation awhile back.(
ok, ok. Not everyone is computer literate yada yada yada. But I'm sayin' ya got the money, ya want it that bad -- even if you don't know any better -- you still have the cashflow for something you want, it doesn't hurt the Consumer in the least. They had the money, they wanted to spend it on a drama. Too bad they had to pay more than it was worth but oh well. It was still money the Buyer was willing to part with for said item.

Furthermore, you'd have to be a SERIOUS dum-dum if you think those shrinkwrapped, cardboard fold out cases are the real deal. Not to mention the horrific grammar in the subtitles... Which leads me to believe that people that retarded deserve to get ripped off. HA HA HA just kidding. um, no really though.

Second topic: I'm just talkin' about a person's desperation to make money. I wasn't trying to justify the unethical act of making a profit off of other people's work. I was just trying to say, don't get all indignant just cause some shmuck's trying to make a buck. I get sickened by all this moral backhanding by people I am SURE are not like Jesus.

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What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

Post by krys » Nov 29th, '04, 07:55

Keep up the good work.

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Post by pr » Nov 30th, '04, 03:20

I've finally finished reading all 8 pages once (I might misread some posts due to the lack of time, pardon me for this) and I'm still conseolinating the replys to give my input

But before that perhaps I should repost my post over at jdoramas regarding the situation on dorama sales by distro earlier so you have some background info on this, if you would like to discuss more about this aspect do reply over at this thread

http://jdorama.com/viewtopic.5029.htm&highlight=

Another threads regarding taiwanese distro's view on adding english subs:
http://jdorama.com/viewtopic.5687.htm&highlight=

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are half-right about the article, but what acturally happened is a piece of quite a long history.......

-----recalling from memory, I might be wrong here-------------

Before Taiwan joins the World Trade Organisation, Taiwan's copyright law requires that a software (CD, DVD, Software etc...) to issue notice on the newspaper within 2 months of the release of their work to declear their copyright. Perhaps Japanese don't care what happened to their work outside Japan, so they didn't bother do that. And that's how Ho-Son and others come about.

-----end of my recollection-------------


---------------------What the news article said--------------------
A lot of dorama fans were shocked by those hearsay that pirated VCD won't be availiable from June onwards and hurried to guanghua shopping complex to have their last purchase.

People in the trade have analysed this situation as comsumers being ignorant about the full details. And of course pirates would not wanted to reveal these things.

因為聽說便宜的日劇盜版VCD從六月起就買不到,不少日劇迷聞訊大吃一驚,急著趕到光華商場做最後的搶購。業界人士分析,這樣的狀況其實是消費者不明究理,而盜版業者也不願意放著現成的錢不賺,將情況說清楚講明白,才會造成消費者的誤解,事實上,所謂的公共版權到期,指的是有版權使用期限授權的正版影片,例如一些迪士尼的老片,以往可以用非常低的價錢買到,而在加入世貿組織,智慧財產權法案重新認定之後,許多公版影片的使用期限縮短,原本兩年的寬限期也將到期,才會引發漲價的說法,但是台灣和日本之間,原本就沒有正式授權的管道,也因此市面上的產品全部都是盜版,既是盜版,就沒有所謂的使用期限問題,因此日劇迷其實不用緊張,也不必冒著滂沱的午後雷陣雨,眼巴巴的趕當搶購一族。
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Things changed after joining WTO. To keep up with international standard (in fact software piracy was, and still one of the main topic for both Taiwan and China with WTO to date), they have to abandon these way of doing things and that means recognising copyright of oversea works by default like other countries.

A lot of people have asked online why Kiwi and perhaps some others have stopped selling older works that were launched pre-WTO. That was a result between Taiwanese (I still don't know whose the taiwanese were) and relevent parties in Japan. 2 years grace period was given for publisher in a transitional ruling. In the meantime, and also as a transition period for negociation. In fact the grace period has been long overdue.


For Hong Kong, the custom made initialite to contact the Japanese side. At first the Japanese felt indifferent towards them and only later on they lamented by some persation from custom they sent a delagate over there and they were shocked by the scene in those hotspots. Needless to say a huge operation to wipe the syntheate was done months later and the rest is history......



Taiwan's different treatment might be due, IMO, to how their copyright law was structured in past, and so I feel that they try to negociate rather to catch them straight away.


How about Singapore? According to Lianhe Zaobao's report 2 years ago, major legit retail distributor didn't know what happened in Taiwan until some legit distributor have talked to the TV stations in Japan and they managed to form sort of an association. They then served lawyer's letter to distributor and only by then they realised what happened. Even the night markets had to dump their stock quick.

What happened before july was that people were rushing to buy dorama VCD because they thought the grace period was up



I think that should be the idea of the report... heh.[/quote]

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Post by okumasama » Nov 30th, '04, 04:07

to kawai
All this information is interesting indeed. Thank you for collecting everything down. Unfortunally in the current state these DVD versions are the only way for us to buy a full quality (same as the original) dorama in an "everyday" price. I find silly the price of 20,000Yen (200$) for a DVD Box set that doesn't even offer by their manufaturers English subtitles. Of course there are huge costs in making a drama but the fact is that Japanese companies are living in the Japanese reality and not in the international one. With 200$ in mainland China you can live for 2 months if you have a place to stay or you can afford a good place to stay for 1 month with the same amount (well maybe somebody else knows exact prices but that's not the issue). In my country, Greece, before the swift to euro, you could have a rent paid for 200$ when in Poland you can have 4 months rent paid (correct me if I'm wrong). In Japan 200$ or better to say 20,000 Yen is just a small part of your montly wage which in a worst scenario case which you work a arubaito (temponary place in a job) will be at least 100,000Yen. Of course that's the absolutely worst and an everyday life's figure will be about 170,000-200,000 per month. I'm not talking of course for not temponary jobs which can be easily exceed the 400,000 per month. So with that money a price of 20,000 Yen for a DVD Box set it's still a bit extreme but affortable to almost everybody. In addition Japan is the center for selling dramas or better doramas. Doramas in the way they are, it's a Japanese invention and Japanese people will buy a DVD box set like anybody will just go and buy a game for their PC or a normal DVD movie. Japanese companies won't expect anybody outside Japan to be able to understand Japanese and purchase their product that's why they haven't opened a export market for those. In china-taiwan-malaysia the situation is a bit different. People there are also very interested in Japanese dramas but since the retail price of a Chinese drama is about 10Yuan (1$) per DVD disk, there is not really a way of profit for Japanese drama selling there at that price or even double of it. Therefore the illegal originals(!) in China.
That's the situation and better not get involved in a serious way. I had some offers (from "links") to print these kind of DVDs in china with Enlish subtitles but doing that will give me huge responsibilty against Japanese companies that I don't want to mess with. I don't know if anybody in here would pay 200$ for a drama even if it came with professional English subtitles. I personally can't afford it in my current financial situation and I guess lots more. Therefore the Chinese prints are the only way to have at least something that looks like the original... Actually it is an original! It has the same content, the same box... Maybe the quality of the printed media is even much better than the Japanese one (just maybe). Just 10-20 times lower price and not the permission from the Japanese companies to be printed. Anyway, even if you fill your house with those you won't have any legal problem. Let the people making those mess with law.

Of course don't get the things here messed up. The previous sutiation is about people profiting from the works of big companies that earn trillions of Yens per year- that they don't lose anything becasue they would never sell in China with that prices anyway. But the sutiation disgussed here is mainly about people that profit from fansubbers that don't earn even a penny.

* The numbers stated here may vary a bit up or down but won't differ that much from the reality.

Note: Sorry for my English, it's 4AM here and I'm going to sleep soon. Can't think anymore... ZZZZ...

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Post by kali4niaguy » Nov 30th, '04, 04:52

okumasama wrote:...I find silly the price of 20,000Yen (200$) for a DVD Box set that doesn't even offer by their manufaturers English subtitles...


i don't think many ppl have so much $$ that they're willing to pay $200 US for a DVD box set! in California, $200 is almost a week's pay for most ppl that's starting out in the work field. it would b cheaper to go to school to learn the language then buy those kind of box sets. even if i was a multimillionaire, i wouldn't spend that kind of money! :crazy:

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Post by amethyst » Nov 30th, '04, 08:25

sly.... for getting away with it too

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Post by naisho » Nov 30th, '04, 18:52

With all due respect,

I think some people are forgetting the meaning of the word fansubbing "By fans for fans." Guys fansubbing is about having fun while doing it, and in the process other fans enjoy it aswell.

Bootlegging has been around for as long as one remembers, from old vhs tapes of shows to boots of anime and dramas. There is no solution for this, unless someone changes in Rambo and blows them all up. Even still there will be people who will sell bootlegs. Also its not just anime and drama that are getting bootlegs, its for almost everything. Best advice is to not worry about it too much or you'll get grey hair :)

If your not having fun and want profit for fansubbing, you shouldnt be doing fansubbing. Thats not fansubbing at all. And if everyone were to quit just because some joe is selling bootlegs we wouldnt have all this great collection of dramas and anime.

So remember there is no cure for bootlegs, they will be with us just like roaches have been surviving in kitchens.

Have fun and if your not having fun, might aswell quit the game.

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Post by Kamui6 » Nov 30th, '04, 19:16

naisho wrote:With all due respect,

I think some people are forgetting the meaning of the word fansubbing "By fans for fans." Guys fansubbing is about having fun while doing it, and in the process other fans enjoy it aswell.

Bootlegging has been around for as long as one remembers, from old vhs tapes of shows to boots of anime and dramas. There is no solution for this, unless someone changes in Rambo and blows them all up. Even still there will be people who will sell bootlegs. Also its not just anime and drama that are getting bootlegs, its for almost everything. Best advice is to not worry about it too much or you'll get grey hair :)

If your not having fun and want profit for fansubbing, you shouldnt be doing fansubbing. Thats not fansubbing at all. And if everyone were to quit just because some joe is selling bootlegs we wouldnt have all this great collection of dramas and anime.

So remember there is no cure for bootlegs, they will be with us just like roaches have been surviving in kitchens.

Have fun and if your not having fun, might aswell quit the game.
your kidding, right? big difference, for one thing most of them aren't saying that it's fansub source and people think they are getting offical dvd sets. They actually pass them off as offical DVD sets, unlike with botleg vhs/dvd most people know what they are buying.
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Post by zdoon » Nov 30th, '04, 19:28

naisho wrote:With all due respect,

I think some people are forgetting the meaning of the word fansubbing "By fans for fans." Guys fansubbing is about having fun while doing it, and in the process other fans enjoy it aswell.

Bootlegging has been around for as long as one remembers, from old vhs tapes of shows to boots of anime and dramas. There is no solution for this, unless someone changes in Rambo and blows them all up. Even still there will be people who will sell bootlegs. Also its not just anime and drama that are getting bootlegs, its for almost everything. Best advice is to not worry about it too much or you'll get grey hair :)

If your not having fun and want profit for fansubbing, you shouldnt be doing fansubbing. Thats not fansubbing at all. And if everyone were to quit just because some joe is selling bootlegs we wouldnt have all this great collection of dramas and anime.

So remember there is no cure for bootlegs, they will be with us just like roaches have been surviving in kitchens.

Have fun and if your not having fun, might aswell quit the game.
Someone please ban this guy. While you're at it, someone please ban "krys." Kthnx.

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Post by okumasama » Nov 30th, '04, 22:37

zdoon wrote:
naisho wrote:With all due respect,

I think some people are forgetting the meaning of the word fansubbing "By fans for fans." Guys fansubbing is about having fun while doing it, and in the process other fans enjoy it aswell.

Bootlegging has been around for as long as one remembers, from old vhs tapes of shows to boots of anime and dramas. There is no solution for this, unless someone changes in Rambo and blows them all up. Even still there will be people who will sell bootlegs. Also its not just anime and drama that are getting bootlegs, its for almost everything. Best advice is to not worry about it too much or you'll get grey hair :)

If your not having fun and want profit for fansubbing, you shouldnt be doing fansubbing. Thats not fansubbing at all. And if everyone were to quit just because some joe is selling bootlegs we wouldnt have all this great collection of dramas and anime.

So remember there is no cure for bootlegs, they will be with us just like roaches have been surviving in kitchens.

Have fun and if your not having fun, might aswell quit the game.
Someone please ban this guy. While you're at it, someone please ban "krys." Kthnx.
No, actually I think he/she has a point there. Copies are everywhere for anything. There is always a cheap imitate of a levis jeans (that they will sell it to you as original levis) or a cheap copy of the latest holywood movie... But that's something far away from us. We are a very small comunity and I think we an still control this.
Sometimes I even feel like "Hell with the sellers I'll just do it for everybody to be happy" but after I spend a couple of minutes translating then It comes again in my mind...

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Post by donna8157 » Nov 30th, '04, 22:51

I agree. I once bought the entire "Meteor Garden" series (both 1 and 2) thinking that they were the original DVD set. The seller had charged $100 for it after all. But when I got them, I was so sorely disappointed and upset.

The seller didn't even put them in a DVD box!

They were in cheap plastic pink CD sleeves. The seller had also used the cheap CD print labels on it!

The first series was a complete copy of the original Meteor Garden DVD since it had specials and such, however the second series was definitely a fansub. I don't know whose fansub it was, but it made me so mad. I wanted to file a complaint to this seller, but found that he/she had already cancelled her username with ebay. At the time that I had bought the DVD, the seller had about 1000+ positive comments on items such as "Winter Sonata", "Autumn Tale", "Beautiful Life" . .

I can't believe these people.

The sad thing is that the majority of people who buy these things off of Ebay don't even know about Fansubs so they believe they're getting good quality stuff. :x

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Post by iceberri » Nov 30th, '04, 23:01

okumasama wrote:No, actually I think he/she has a point there. Copies are everywhere for anything. There is always a cheap imitate of a levis jeans (that they will sell it to you as original levis) or a cheap copy of the latest holywood movie... But that's something far away from us. We are a very small comunity and I think we an still control this.
Sometimes I even feel like "Hell with the sellers I'll just do it for everybody to be happy" but after I spend a couple of minutes translating then It comes again in my mind...
The difference between fansubs and bootlegged stuff is that the people who make the original Levis jeans are getting paid for it. It's their job. Yet, these people are profitting off of other people who are not paid for their efforts. Sure, I guess you could call it volunteer work, but as you know, it still makes you feel totally crappy that somoene out there... is earning big bucks from burning a cd and selling them as the real deal.

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Post by zdoon » Nov 30th, '04, 23:34

okumasama wrote:No, actually I think he/she has a point there.
His point, however, is diluted when he writes "by fans for fans." He should add to that "...and also for the gingertoys2" and make an argument explicitly from that premise. As it is, he/she misses the relevant psychology here. And who knows? This poster can be gt2. (Yeah, I'm starting to get cynical that way.)
Sometimes I even feel like "Hell with the sellers I'll just do it for everybody to be happy" but after I spend a couple of minutes translating then It comes again in my mind...
This is true. Who cares if you're getting ripped off directly by some guy in Columbus, GA. And, mind you, it's not a possibility. It's a direct cause-effect. Who cares if the majority of people are leechers who have no appreciation for the process and have an attitude that subs or encodes make themselves and that they are entitled to more of it. None of that, and I'm being sincere, should matter if you're a guy interested in raising anonymous, positive karma points, true. There's something modestly good about that. But then I think of gingertoys2....Is it worth one's time to do two episodes a week at the pace a show airs from a country so that he can make a profit a week as soon as the show itself is done? There will always be other shows. Tv rips, dvd rips, etc..

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Post by jaycee05 » Nov 30th, '04, 23:40

NatNat wrote: I was just trying to say, don't get all indignant
just cause some shmuck's trying to make a buck. I get sickened by all
this moral backhanding by people I am SURE are not like Jesus.
Looks like we have ur kind of people, now...
krys wrote:Keep up the good work.
and....
naisho wrote:With all due respect,

I think some people are forgetting the meaning of the word fansubbing
"By fans for fans." Guys fansubbing is about having fun while doing it,
and in the process other fans enjoy it aswell.

Bootlegging has been around for as long as one remembers, from old vhs
tapes of shows to boots of anime and dramas. There is no solution for
this, unless someone changes in Rambo and blows them all up. Even still
there will be people who will sell bootlegs. Also its not just anime
and drama that are getting bootlegs, its for almost everything. Best
advice is to not worry about it too much or you'll get grey hair

If your not having fun and want profit for fansubbing, you shouldnt be
doing fansubbing. Thats not fansubbing at all. And if everyone were to
quit just because some joe is selling bootlegs we wouldnt have all this
great collection of dramas and anime.

So remember there is no cure for bootlegs, they will be with us just
like roaches have been surviving in kitchens.

Have fun and if your not having fun, might aswell quit the
game.

IMO, ill get more sickened if i see those kind of posts...

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Post by Tekuza » Nov 30th, '04, 23:58

IMO i think it's wrong to be selling fansub work as the fansub group don't even ask for money you should sell at minumum price for media and shipping only as the fansub file was free for you to download etc converting these to DVD's and selling on ebay only proves greed if your making a profit as you should be sharing them because fansub here and there will rarely ask just for donation when they are massive already but they don't try to make profit that's why were thankful for them if we get more ppl buying the fansubs they might get the shits and stop subbing series etc since they lose credits for themselves for that :cry: so i am angry about also goes for anime....

BTW are there any members of fansub groups here what's your opinion on this hope i got it right :P
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Post by naisho » Dec 1st, '04, 00:14

your kidding, right? big difference, for one thing most of them aren't saying that it's fansub source and people think they are getting offical dvd sets. They actually pass them off as offical DVD sets, unlike with botleg vhs/dvd most people know what they are buying.
it still falls in the category of bootleg which is something illegally made, copied or sold. Bootleggers are not really going to care if it is fansubs or not. I agree that there are people who think they are getting official dvds, but most of the money made by bootleggers is by repeat buyers. Who unlike the new buyer knows what they are getting. Also most if not all bootleggers, are in their right mind going to say that they are selling illegal copies, I believe thats the way they find their loyal customers.
Someone please ban this guy. While you're at it, someone please ban "krys." Kthnx.
Thanks for understanding that other people may have a different opinion as you.




Also lets not forget that fansubbing is also copyright infrigement, atleast the hardsubbed encodes because your are altering the video.


oh and just in case anyone is wondering, no I dont bootleg :)

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Post by zdoon » Dec 1st, '04, 00:26

naisho wrote:Thanks for understanding that other people may have a different opinion as you.
I understand it. It doesn't mean I have to respect it.

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Post by pockiiee » Dec 1st, '04, 01:20

poking my head in again with a bit of news:

Check out today's news for the anime fanssub group sailorspork here:

http://sailorspork.8m.net/
quote: "Bootleg Alert Update: hkheero and gingertoys2 have pulled their auctions containing Sailor Spork subs. Thanks for everyone who contacted them and asked them to stop, you all really helped. :) "
Just thought you minght find it interesting.

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Post by StrangerInTheNight » Dec 1st, '04, 03:17

naisho wrote:With all due respect,

I think some people are forgetting the meaning of the word fansubbing "By fans for fans." Guys fansubbing is about having fun while doing it, and in the process other fans enjoy it aswell.

Bootlegging has been around for as long as one remembers, from old vhs tapes of shows to boots of anime and dramas. There is no solution for this, unless someone changes in Rambo and blows them all up. Even still there will be people who will sell bootlegs. Also its not just anime and drama that are getting bootlegs, its for almost everything. Best advice is to not worry about it too much or you'll get grey hair :)

If your not having fun and want profit for fansubbing, you shouldnt be doing fansubbing. Thats not fansubbing at all. And if everyone were to quit just because some joe is selling bootlegs we wouldnt have all this great collection of dramas and anime.

So remember there is no cure for bootlegs, they will be with us just like roaches have been surviving in kitchens.

Have fun and if your not having fun, might aswell quit the game.
You know what else is fun? Sex. But if someone videotapes you having sex and then sells copies of that video, without your permission, it wouldn't be much fun would it? You're not going to "quit" sex over it, but you will try to do what you can to prevent it from happening again.

Maybe not the best comparison, but a legitimate one nonetheless, because both the sex tape and illicit copies of the fansubbed dramas are problems that stem from exploitation.

Some **** is exploiting the work of a well intentioned fansubber for personal financial gain. And fansubbers rightfully feel they shouldn't be exploited. Simple as that.

naisho, since you obviously understand that other people have different opinions, here's mine...

You are an idiot.

Seriously, look back on your own insanely ridiculous post and tell me which part of that has any fathomable logic to it. You are justifying the exploitation of someone else's work on the basis that the work in question was created out of doing something fun. So in your opinion, anyone who does something for fun can be taken advantage of?

Moreover, fansubbers shouldn't fansub if they want profit from it? The point you're missing is that the fansubbers themselves don't want profit from their work. They simply want the fansubs to be used as intended. It was intended to provide fans with accessibility to dramas they wouldn't normally have access to, done purely out of the goodness of their hearts.

It was NOT intended to rip off unknowing people who shell out hard earned money for what they believe to be genuine goods. It was NOT intended to allow scumbags to make profit from someone else's hard work.

With all due respect, I think YOU forget that fansubbing means "by fans for fans". It does not mean "by fans whose work can be exploited", as your post implies.

Yes, bootlegs will always exist. That does not mean we shouldn't worry about it. In fact, in this case it is the opposite. We should worry because bootlegs of the fansubs discourage fansubbers from providing further fansubs. Think about it, would you want to continue doing something knowing someone will continue to take credit for it and make money off of something you want to provide for free? Nobody appreciates being taken advantage of like that.

By discouraging fansubbers in such a manner, people like gingertoys -and I'm assuming you as well( despite what you claim) - are threatening to limit the accessibility of what you so aptly refer to as a " great collection of dramas and anime." Most people see that, and that is why this thread is such a hot thread right now.

Please don't try to justify the illicit practice of profitting from someone else's work. That's just plain disrespectful of the dedicated fansubbers out there.

If I sound upset, it’s because idiotic posts like naisho’s really irk me.

Note to fansubbers I know it doesn't get said enough, but I'm confident I speak for everyone here (not named naisho) when I say we all appreciate your ongoing work. And just so you know, I will continue to gratefully do what I can to curb the exploitation of your work. (IE, reporting Gingertoys to Ebay, etc.)

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Post by kood » Dec 1st, '04, 03:37

That's life, fight or stfu.
To hell with the sellers.

@StrangerInTheNight - Well said. :applauses:

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Post by rosch » Dec 1st, '04, 03:41

I'm willing to do whatever I can to help the hardworking fansubber.

They provide the subs we need to watch entertainment that would otherwise not be understandable.

If there's some sort of general fansubber fund, that pays for any expenses fansubbers might incur, I'd gladly donate to that.

People who sell such stuff for profit are just selfish.

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Post by pockiiee » Dec 1st, '04, 03:55

NatNat wrote:
pockiiee wrote: I didn't mean they were too lazy, just that they aren't as computer literate.(
ok, ok. Not everyone is computer literate yada yada yada. But I'm sayin' ya got the money, ya want it that bad -- even if you don't know any better -- you still have the cashflow for something you want, it doesn't hurt the Consumer in the least. They had the money, they wanted to spend it on a drama. Too bad they had to pay more than it was worth but oh well. It was still money the Buyer was willing to part with for said item.

Furthermore, you'd have to be a SERIOUS dum-dum if you think those shrinkwrapped, cardboard fold out cases are the real deal..
It might not hurt the consumer any, but it's hurting the chances of more subtitled drama by fans being made - see above post, I think StrangerintheNight put my thoughts into words quite nicely. I sure most have an idea it's a bootleg of sorts, but not that it was made for free, and they could obtain it for free. Anyway, I think we're arguing in circles. It might not hurt the consumer, but it does hurt and offend the people who make the subs, to the point of them quitting in some occasions.
I'm still convinced some think it's the real article.
NatNat wrote:[Second topic: I'm just talkin' about a person's desperation to make money. I wasn't trying to justify the unethical act of making a profit off of other people's work. I was just trying to say, don't get all indignant just cause some shmuck's trying to make a buck. I get sickened by all this moral backhanding by people I am SURE are not like Jesus.
Yeah, Ok. So you're saying it isn't right. We agree. I know people can be desperate for money, but that's not really an excuse, is it? If you put a lot of time and effort into translating something would you just shrug and let Gingertoys rake in the cash from your hard work?

And no, I'm not like JESUS. Thanks for letting me know. Far from it ;)
What does that have to do with being of the opinion that the sale of these translations is wrong, and detremental to the"fansub community" or whatever you'd like to call it.? Put simply that if it continues there will be less of a chance for all of us to get these great fan works?
StrangerInTheNightt wrote:Yes, bootlegs will always exist. That does not mean we shouldn't worry about it. In fact, in this case it is the opposite. We should worry because bootlegs of the fansubs discourage fansubbers from providing further fansubs. Think about it, would you want to continue doing something knowing someone will continue to take credit for it and make money off of something you want to provide for free? Nobody appreciates being taken advantage of like that. .
Well put Stranger.

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Post by mtlandis » Dec 1st, '04, 03:56

Ok I have to chime in again.....

Subbing is a lot of work and people who do it for free must enjoy either subbing and/or sharing. HOWEVER, that does not mean they want someone else to make a profit from it.

Let's try this example that actually happened to me...

I am a social worker and work with a bunch of people who can barely check their e-mail without help. I spent an entire weekend creating a template of a printed, 3-part NCR (no carbon required) form we used alot. (It was a form used for case comments and often contained many paragraphs of handwritten notes). This template came complete with help screens and macros. At the same time, we had a consultant in our office who was earning about $70/hr. to assist with streamlining an already paper intensive job. The consultant claimed my template as hers and charged my employer (local government) several thousands of dollars to use it. By the time I found out about all this, the consultant was long gone with her money. I created this form to help myself and my co-workers. It was almost a labor of love for me. I had absolutely no intention of ever charging for the form. I just wanted to be able to use it. I felt angry and ripped off when I found out what this consultant had done, but there was really nothing that could be done about it.

Anyone who thinks it is OK to make a profit from fansubs needs to put themselves into their shoes (or even mine) and ask if you want that done to you.
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Post by lilswtangel » Dec 1st, '04, 04:02

StrangerInTheNight wrote:
naisho wrote:....
very impressive, i couldn't have said it any better Stranger~ i've reported gingertoys2 and i'm aware others have, too. guess, we just all have to report him/her at least once a day...and if he/she was to change username....we'll just have to report that one, too.

and as for the fact that he probably made thousands in profits...there's really nothing we can do about that since the buyers were all willing to buy them from him/her. i'm just glad to see that there are honest buyers out there that are willing to risk receiving negative feedback in return by giving him negative feedback.

i was going through his feedback and i saw a lot of comments close to "bootleg dvds, don't trust seller....not as advertised..etc."

after all that's been said and written, i still think it's wrong to profit from the fansubbers' work. and because of sellers like gingertoys, fansubbers from okumasama to zdoon [and many many many others] are in danger of having their work sold.

just to let all the fansubbers out there know that we appreciate all your hard work and thank you. and i can understand your situation of having your hard work profited from leechers. :x
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Re: What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

Post by Kamui6 » Dec 1st, '04, 04:20

krys wrote:Keep up the good work.


:lol :twisted: XD guess i am the only one with a sense of humor
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Post by tailchaser » Dec 1st, '04, 04:54

I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I have been thinking about what ruroshin said and I am beginning to wonder if it just might be possible. Perhaps some of us should just open our own ebay stores to compete with gingertoys. It's obviously safe enough. The TV networks obviously don't give a rats arse about it. Neither does Ebay or anyone else but our small community.

I think what most of us object to with gingertoys' auctions is the fact that (s)he is profiting from it. I wonder how many more DVDs he could sell if I started selling the same DVDs (in actual 5 mbps full DVD quality) with selectable english subtitles for only $5 + (no profit) shipping. I wouldn't even label the DVD-Rs and would openly admit that they are just copies. I would credit the fansubbing group and give their web/IRC/BT information. I would state clearly in the auction that it is also available for free and specifically where to get it etc, ect. IOW, the point of my auctions would obviously not be to make money but instead to just distribute the dramas nearly at cost in true DVD format with E-subs.

This is not some kind of offer. I don't know if I have the time for this, and I would not be happy about having to pay the listing fees when the DVDs didn't sell that particular week. I am just thinking out loud. Also, I would only be willing to do this for the dramas that I really like. It is a lot of work. So other people would have to do their part to distribute their favorite dramas as well. If enough people did this we could have all the popular dramas covered and Ebay sellers would never be able to make a profit from what was intended to be given away for free.

Once some of us developed a track record, all it may take to re-assure the translators/subbers of new dramas that their work will not be used to make others rich is a commitment from one of us to sell it at near-cost on Ebay. IOW, it may reduce the chilling effect that these rat-bastards may be having on the subbing of new Asian dramas. I realize this is all pie-in-the-sky at the moment. I just thought I would flesh out some of these ideas.

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Re: What you think about people selling fansubs for profit?

Post by lolipss » Dec 1st, '04, 05:03

Kamui6 wrote:
krys wrote:Keep up the good work.


:lol :twisted: XD guess i am the only one with a sense of humor
:lol :P

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Post by jrudiman » Dec 1st, '04, 06:54

is there any way the tracker to ban an ip based on the last ip logged from the "guys who should never be named"? at least they wouldn't get fansubbed work shared in this comunity

edit: well, i guess opening a new accoulnt would do for them. i said nothing

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Post by okumasama » Dec 1st, '04, 08:04

tailchaser wrote:I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I have been thinking about what ruroshin said and I am beginning to wonder if it just might be possible. Perhaps some of us should just open our own ebay stores to compete with gingertoys. It's obviously safe enough. The TV networks obviously don't give a rats arse about it. Neither does Ebay or anyone else but our small community.

I think what most of us object to with gingertoys' auctions is the fact that (s)he is profiting from it. I wonder how many more DVDs he could sell if I started selling the same DVDs (in actual 5 mbps full DVD quality) with selectable english subtitles for only $5 + (no profit) shipping. I wouldn't even label the DVD-Rs and would openly admit that they are just copies. I would credit the fansubbing group and give their web/IRC/BT information. I would state clearly in the auction that it is also available for free and specifically where to get it etc, ect. IOW, the point of my auctions would obviously not be to make money but instead to just distribute the dramas nearly at cost in true DVD format with E-subs.

This is not some kind of offer. I don't know if I have the time for this, and I would not be happy about having to pay the listing fees when the DVDs didn't sell that particular week. I am just thinking out loud. Also, I would only be willing to do this for the dramas that I really like. It is a lot of work. So other people would have to do their part to distribute their favorite dramas as well. If enough people did this we could have all the popular dramas covered and Ebay sellers would never be able to make a profit from what was intended to be given away for free.

Once some of us developed a track record, all it may take to re-assure the translators/subbers of new dramas that their work will not be used to make others rich is a commitment from one of us to sell it at near-cost on Ebay. IOW, it may reduce the chilling effect that these rat-bastards may be having on the subbing of new Asian dramas. I realize this is all pie-in-the-sky at the moment. I just thought I would flesh out some of these ideas.
Profiting or not it's obvious that if we start selling those too, we fall in an almost same category as any other illegal seller. It is a good solution for ripping other sellers off but starting to do the same thing...well...profitable or not, to law it's about the same thing- the problem its on distributing copyrighted material. We already violate that in this site but under much different circumstances. You can claim here that you just made this torrent to transfer it to your other computer because you don't have a DVD burnder and then some people just got it- well funny enought but just an example.
So how could you actually distribute/sell these without being illegal? That's the thing that concers me the latest 2-3 months both for ripping sellers off, giving a huge open to this community and why not (while I'm legal) making an income. What you could do here to solve that is to sell the original DVD Box set along with the burned copy of the same material (absolutely legal under any law). I explained that case a few days ago in this thread so if you search a bit back you will find out. BUT. There are some important issues here. Selling for example an original DVD box set+ a TV rip with English subs won't do-you are illegal. Selling the original+ a copy of the original with transcription of the English subtitles you didn't create (by translating) is again illegal. The only legal way is to sell the original with subtitles you made.
So solved?-> The biggest problem here is which DVD Box are you going to sell? The Japanese one will bring the cost over to 200$. The chinese one is not a legaly made... Well... I would personally choose the Chinese one since it's absolutely same as the original, I won't carry the responsibily for it's printing (I can claim I never knew it was illegal if I got any problems) and I could achive a price lower than 40$.
I guess everybody here understand that the problem is not about the stealing of profit from the main creators (the Japanese chanells)-they wouldn't profit anyway with a 200$ version. So I find the Chinese DVD Boxes set a brilliant chance to try to stay as legal as possible + offer a superb version to the buyer (that's all us- the fans).
You could ask me of course: YOu are telling me that it's OK to sell the Chinese DVD box set since the problem is not about the stealing of profit from the main creators. So if I sell a transcription of a channells' subtitles (ie from a Kiku rip) won't be excacly the same? Well.... what can I say? Nothing. You will be right. I guess that case with a very small profit margin (or 0 profit) will be ideal for everybody. You are still illegal but that's the best solution out there to offer a decent version product to all the fans and keeping as legal as possible...
As I already anounced in my webpage, my group is going to do that with our subtitles. I think is fair enought and since we are copyrighted our subs that will prevent from anybody else just elling a copy of them. Now about the other dramas-well... I don't know if everybody agrees with transcribing the subs from TV rips and sell them with the original DVD box set (I mean the Chinese one of course) for a very low price (almost or 0 profit)... Of course doing that won't prevent gingertoys2 or anybody else taking your transcribe and sell it-you don't have any rights on it...I want to hear you oppinions here....

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Post by Lupinpunch » Dec 1st, '04, 10:10

I was one of those "idiots" that bought from gingertoys. I was kinda mad at the whole situation. When I bought the DVD's, I was under the impression that I was buying a used box set of the yamato nadeshiko drama. I get an email from gingertoys saying that the DVDs were shipped and that she was interested in what I thought of them. hmmm, first clue.

I get it and discover 2 burned DVD-R's. Sucks. I gave her neutral feedback because I assumed what I was getting and didn't ask before I bid. The package came timely but I felt I was mislead with fansubs, and honestly the dvd quality was about par with a VHS recording. She fires backwith a nuetral feedback saying I should know that there is no english subs of that drama! What??

I get another email saying she will retract her neutral feedback if I retract mine. Damn! A closer look at her feedback shows that she has pulled this trick on many others that left a negative feedback and she tricks them into retracting.

I reply back to the feedback she left and said I was confused that I got a neutral feedback becasue I wasn't satisfied?? I paid within 30 minutes of the bid being over and I am at fault? She leaves a reply to my feedback on her account that I didn't email her my concerns, but as stated before, I did. I only left the neutral feedback after several days of waiting for a reply.

This goes back and forth until we have both used up our max number of replies to each others feedback. She even hijacks a feeback above mine from ANOTHER USER to continue her ranting on me!!

To help fight back, here is the contact info of this substandard seller, I hope she gets everything she deserves, the **** ****.

Rina
gingertoys2@hotmail.com

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Post by jaycee05 » Dec 1st, '04, 11:42

Lupinpunch wrote:I was one of those "idiots" that bought from gingertoys. I was kinda mad at the whole situation. When I bought the DVD's, I was under the impression that I was buying a used box set of the yamato nadeshiko drama. I get an email from gingertoys saying that the DVDs were shipped and that she was interested in what I thought of them. hmmm, first clue.

I get it and discover 2 burned DVD-R's. Sucks. I gave her neutral feedback because I assumed what I was getting and didn't ask before I bid. The package came timely but I felt I was mislead with fansubs, and honestly the dvd quality was about par with a VHS recording. She fires backwith a nuetral feedback saying I should know that there is no english subs of that drama! What??

I get another email saying she will retract her neutral feedback if I retract mine. Damn! A closer look at her feedback shows that she has pulled this trick on many others that left a negative feedback and she tricks them into retracting.

I reply back to the feedback she left and said I was confused that I got a neutral feedback becasue I wasn't satisfied?? I paid within 30 minutes of the bid being over and I am at fault? She leaves a reply to my feedback on her account that I didn't email her my concerns, but as stated before, I did. I only left the neutral feedback after several days of waiting for a reply.

This goes back and forth until we have both used up our max number of replies to each others feedback. She even hijacks a feeback above mine from ANOTHER USER to continue her ranting on me!!

To help fight back, here is the contact info of this substandard seller, I hope she gets everything she deserves, the **** ****.

Rina
gingertoys2@hotmail.com
lol, wat a sly **** eh...so is her name Rina?
two of my sources said it was Kheng Jin...arent u smart now, of course ull use different names...but if it was a paypal account, could it still be faked? doesnt matter, but if u r reading this, if i were u, ill be setting aside money for bail :roll
anyway tnx lupin...
u do know (even b4 buying from gingertoys2) that u could get jdramas for free, right?

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Post by Sana » Dec 1st, '04, 11:57

Maybe her name is Rina Kheng Jin. 8) Anywho, if a person bought one or sets then they might be fooled, but I see repeat "customers" buying like 5 sets or more. For that money, why don't they freaking get broadband and download loads of drama for free? :roll

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Post by lilswtangel » Dec 1st, '04, 12:01

Lupinpunch wrote:I ...
welcome to d-addicts lupin~ you didn't join just to give us gingertoys2 email, did you? lolsssssss. :lol
with a nice sharing community such as d-addicts....there's no need to go buy bootlegged "stolen" series from thieves like gingertoys2 whether her name is Rina or Kheng Jin.

for real quality dvds, you can maybe find the dramas that you want at yesasia.com...the link is directly above on this page. :) it'll be a tad more expensive....but are true dvds~ so it's a guarantee of no bootlegs.

also, sorry to hear about to hear your unhappy experience with her. likewise, i was looking at her feedback and saw how she tried to disclaim her negatives by standing up for herself.
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Don't worry, be happy

Post by ImageHaHa » Dec 1st, '04, 12:40

Everybody is arguing to no conclusion, let's have some contructive suggestions.

I. On the defensive (Defensive mechanism)
Don't worry, be happy - Long Vacation, Pride
Tell yourself that those selling fansubs are people that need money (like the father of Takuya in 'A million star fall fromt he sky' ), if he got the money, he may have a happier family.

II. On the offensive - use the political campaign stragety -
Step 1: Set up a permanent thread with a moderator entitled : "Report for fansub selling"
Step 2: On the thread, list the link of the selling (off course, veritified by the moderator)
Step 3: On the next line: " Want to send mail to him/her/it?" Choose the sampel below:
STep 4: Prodivde samples of email and 'click here
Step 5: Here are some samples
Sample 1 : SUbject: Product enquiry
Content : You are selling other people's hard work, please either stop or donate 20% of your profit.(link) Your cooperation is deeply appreciated.
[Want to send this to seller? click here]

Sample 2 : Subject: Some question on the product
Content: You mother fucker, you dare to do this, I have a doll with your email and 3 pins (head, chest and XX between your legs) are stuck there. You better stop now.
[Want to send this to seller? click here'

Sample 3: Subject: Interest in product
Content: It is not very good to sell other people's hard work. May I have it free just like fansubs. I don't mind to give you back the expenses for copying and shipping and little bit extra extra. I will send you a secret gift too. Interested, contact me.

[Want to send this to seller? Click here]



Let the member do what they see fit.
:

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Post by tailchaser » Dec 1st, '04, 19:58

Rina's webmail address doesn't help us all that much (although some of us could have a go at trying to guess her password). Neither does her first name even assuming that it's real. What we need is her address and phone number or at least her real last name. We need to be able to ring her doorbell (as an angry mob with torches and pitchforks).

You don't happen to still have the original box that she sent you? If it was a tracked package you may be able to look it up to see where it shipped from. At the very least we need the city that she lives in and her last name. It would be nice if she would just leave a real return address on the package.

Remember, viigilante justice is the only real justice there is.

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Post by peachy » Dec 1st, '04, 22:03

Imagehaha wrote
II. On the offensive - use the political campaign stragety -
Step 1: Set up a permanent thread with a moderator entitled : "Report for fansub selling"
Step 2: On the thread, list the link of the selling (off course, veritified by the moderator)
I think this is a really good idea! The more I read this thread the more upset I get with those who have the nerve to sell someone elses fansubs!! :crazy: :x

When I first started watching k-drama a few months ago I saw someone selling beautiful days and I almost bought it, till I realized that there was a version offered at Jem's web site for FREE! I was lucky to have a younger brother with an addiction to anime who could explain bit torrent, etc to me. So I can totally understand how people who do not download drama , but really want english subbed drama, can be sucked in. I blame those who sell the fansubs, not the poor souls who are most likely just trying to feed thier addiction; because I know what it feels like to NEED another drama, I'm just lucky enough to know how and where to download it.

I would absolutely send e-mails, etc. to the person or people selling others hard work on e-bay. Without the fansubbers I would not be able to understand most of the drama I watch (not that it would stop me from watching, but I would be alot more confused :D ) Those who take time out of their lives to subtitle dramas so that I can understand them get my upmost respect and thanks :notworthy: :notworthy:

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 1st, '04, 23:43

Hahaha, I think any plans you guys propose here will defeat any element of surprise since the seller obviously browses this forum regularly :lol I think competing to sell alongside gingertoys2 wouldn't do anything but do what we are originally saying sucks in the first place. And to buy them and swarm with bad feedback, they are still getting the profit. I think there's pretty much nothing we can do other than, as a last straw, contact the production companies that have the rights to air or distribute these dramas. Even then there is no guarantee they'll get to it.

Anyway, as much as I think it sucks, as long as there are people willing to buy and ebay lets it slide (obviously they are), it's going to continue. These repeat customers are aware of what they are buying once they buy the first time. But they go back again and again, whatever the reason may be. I bet a lot of it is for convenience for 1) not having to download it themselves, and 2) having it already put in DVD format so they don't have to reencode and burn it themselves. The repeat customers obviously don't feel like they are being ripped off. And for DVD rips, they are saving money from buying the genuine sets.

Reporting to ebay seems to be useless. Even if a complaint is made, and I'm sure there have been many, ebay would probably ask the seller about the products, the seller lies and claims they are originals, ebay shakes it off and says "Ok! Sorry to have bothered you!". Although, they only need to go through some of the feedback to find out they are bootlegs. I think either ebay is ignoring the complaints and/or is letting it slide from all of the profit from auction fees as gingertoys2's weekly auction volume is pretty damn big :blink At this rate it looks like they are selling over 100 sets per week :blink It looks like ebay can make at least $60+ a week just from gingertoys2's auction fees alone, since items between $10-$24.99 are charged 60 cents per auction.

From what it sounds like, the few who aren't aware buy them, and complain thereafter, conflicting with the seller. I checked and noticed what Lupin was talking about. It's pretty shady to needlessly match neutral or negative feedback just out of spite. It seems like an angry retort and even a tactic to get it retracted. Pfft.
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Post by nene » Dec 2nd, '04, 00:27

oh gee.... i finally finished reading the whole pages of this thread.. so sad =/
i'm sorry this has to happen to all the fansubbers... i dont have much to say, the words have all been said...
i know i cant really do anything, but i'm willing to help stopping people like that ginger guy (some said he's a she? gee.. thats even sadder...). i've emailed ebay regarding this matter. i hope they will really do something when they get enough email spamming...
since we know that that ginger person is from Columbus, GA, cant the site admin or someone track down the ip addresses of people visiting d-addicts or something and find out people ips from Columbus, GA ?
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neonkinpatsu
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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 13th, '04, 05:39

Check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 71180&rd=1

The bidding is up to $86 for 4 burned DVD's :blink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 13543&rd=1

$25 for burned VCD's of ROYOW? :glare:
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Post by lolipss » Dec 13th, '04, 05:51

neonkinpatsu wrote:Check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 71180&rd=1

The bidding is up to $86 for 4 burned DVD's :blink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 13543&rd=1

$25 for burned VCD's of ROYOW? :glare:

what....... how come there's a What Happened In Bali Kdrama with english subtitle?? :blink is that for real? i ony can found 3 eps with e-subs so far done from #KDRAMA group

i wonder how he got those....
Last edited by lolipss on Dec 13th, '04, 05:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by techie » Dec 13th, '04, 05:52

neonkinpatsu wrote:Check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 71180&rd=1

The bidding is up to $86 for 4 burned DVD's :blink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 13543&rd=1

$25 for burned VCD's of ROYOW? :glare:

I wonder.... if EBay doesn't remove them, why not go in and post 6000 copies at buy-it-now for $2.00 :)

That oughta shut them up :LOL

Hmm perhaps donate the proceeds to "Starving-Language-Students".org :)

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Post by neonkinpatsu » Dec 13th, '04, 10:11

lolipss wrote:
neonkinpatsu wrote:Check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 71180&rd=1

The bidding is up to $86 for 4 burned DVD's :blink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 13543&rd=1

$25 for burned VCD's of ROYOW? :glare:

what....... how come there's a What Happened In Bali Kdrama with english subtitle?? :blink is that for real? i ony can found 3 eps with e-subs so far done from #KDRAMA group

i wonder how he got those....
Yeah, it exists. It's probably a TV capture. The one I have (on 5 DVD's, not 4 like this one) is a cap from KBFD, but I don't know if it only aired on KBFD or aired elsewhere too. I have no idea who did this capture, assuming it is one. But if it is a KBFD version, I doubt they'd be happy to see captures of their airings on 4 DVD-R's being sold on ebay, let alone for $86 or however higher it may go. :roll It looks like the seller sold two other sets for ~$50 and ~$60.
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Post by deadhippo » Dec 13th, '04, 10:37

how about sending and email to all the bidders with the info about what they are actaully paying for and how to get them for free
maybe somebody made that suggestion already

too many posts to back and check them all

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Post by lilswtangel » Dec 13th, '04, 12:17

i didn't believe it until i clicked on the link...

$86 for What Happened in Bali bootlegs....incredulous~!!! :x
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Post by clouds421 » Dec 14th, '04, 06:44

neonkinpatsu wrote:Check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 71180&rd=1

The bidding is up to $86 for 4 burned DVD's :blink

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 13543&rd=1

$25 for burned VCD's of ROYOW? :glare:
Wow, after seeing these links... I was curious whether the bidders knew that they were buying copies. Then I saw that one of the bidders bought Stairway to Heaven for over $100 :crazy:

No wonder they say prohibition encourages illegal behavior. They're making so much money off it.

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