Racism

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SouSu
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Post by SouSu » Nov 22nd, '05, 23:37

SHD wrote:
SouSu wrote:I think that people that did not experience the injustice (for example the Chinese that did not suffer in the WWII from the Japanese) should discriminate.
@SouSu--I think your heart and mind are in the right place but maybe you meant "shouldN'T"

@aNToK--I think the quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." maybe attributed to George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905

regardless, the thought is very relevant. i apologize if it seems like i want to correct everybody.
woops my bad..lol

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Post by pokute » Nov 22nd, '05, 23:39

Okay aNToK, I'm at Caltech right now... I go west on California Blvd. and then...?

314159
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Post by 314159 » Nov 22nd, '05, 23:41

Let us check how much chinese and japanese are related in cultural ways.

1. Script

Hanzi (漢字) which called "Kanji" in japanese which means "The script of the Han". Han means "chinese". Almost 50% of japanese Text are written in "chinese"... Well, also Hiragana and Katagana are also based on chinese script.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji

2. Language

Maybe the japanese themselves didn't / don't notice what they are talking or using words to express what they are thinking. Just check about the japanese language about "On'yomi" reading. Many lexicas like Wikipedia explain or translate it as "chinese reading".
Go-on (呉音), Kan-on (漢音) and Tō-on (唐音) for instance...

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji

3. Cloths

Yea, the cloths,... Even chinese people didn't / don't know about but what they are wearing. Most chinese declare the Qipao (旗袍) as chinese cloths but this is wrong!
The real chinese cloths is called -logically- Hanfu (漢服) which means "Cloths of Han". But Qipao is manchu cloths...
Today what japanese are wearing like kimono are based on Hanfu, also korean traditional cloths.

Proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese_clothing

4. Books and Story

The travel to the west (西遊記), The romance of three kingdoms (三國志), Sunzi's way of war (孫子兵法), etc... All those are important and popular chinese books or story I saw in japanese media.
Those story was written in the Ming-dynasty, Late Han-dynasty and waring countries period. It's 3000 years.

---

And this non-academical comic book "Introduction of China" says that chinese people just got only good food. If the author of the comic book just using a little bit of thinking, even he just use his butt to think, then I believe that he didn't produce those crap.

I think the japanese culture is a interessting cutural but sometimes people like this author of this stupid comic book stops me to want to know more about japanese culture. They just make me sick.
I'm sure if the japanese goverment dont stop their political behavior then they will lose.

The new movie of Jackie Chan "The Myth" express it already indirectly: India, Korea and China but no Japan.
Last edited by 314159 on Nov 22nd, '05, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

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iki
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Post by iki » Nov 22nd, '05, 23:43

Hi, I'm new to this forum, and I don't want to start a flame-fest. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion as it's been going; you all seem to be on the right page.

But I wonder if we can step back and ask ourselves how this racism plays out in our lives. Being that this forum is about dramas, then, how do we or should we respond to these sorts of things when we see them? Do we see them?

Densha otoko was the first drama I'd seen, and I watched it religiously, and now I'm moving on to other ones. Yet I couldn't help but notice the peculiarity of the female lead (Saori). In an unforgettable scene, the otaku say "moe", and she repeats it, acting in a very moe way. On the whole, as beautiful as she is (and maybe that's part of it), she doesn't seem like a very deep character. Sure she's nice and has real feelings, which is more than you can say for dating sim girls, but she still seems like a doll.

I can't really think of any racist things in it (unless you want to see otaku as another "race", but that's a different thing). But male-female relations seem at least similar to interracial ones.

So what I'm trying to say is that we should look at the things we watch critically—and of course enjoy them! Not just criticize the stuff that other people do.

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Post by pokute » Nov 22nd, '05, 23:52

@lkl: I agree 100% about Saori. Similar problems plague the female leads of a lot of J-dorama, and it's about 100 times worse in K-dorama. And if you have ever watch Mexican TV, you will want to scream!! They present spouse abuse as humor - man gets drunk and smacks his wife hard, and the laugh track goes right off the dial! But going from the politics of racism to the politics of sexism is, uh, er... I was going to say a slippery slope but that just doesn't quite sound...

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Post by aNToK » Nov 23rd, '05, 00:00

pokute wrote:Okay aNToK, I'm at Caltech right now... I go west on California Blvd. and then...?
California is currently denying that anything west on California Blvd exists. Better turn back before your tires get wet. Or not...
I am not obsessed. I am just very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very focussed...

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Post by nak » Nov 23rd, '05, 00:00

Back to the original topic,

this discussion will go on for ever, and i don't think it is a positivew type of discussion.
It's good to discuss about some of the issues going around our world, but in such community like here, where there are many Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Malaysian...(etc), i personally think this topic is not really suitable for this website^^

However, there is a thing i want to say.
Reading the article regarding the Comic, there are always idiots in "every' country, i mean, people who are too proud of their culture (country), that they do not intake "any" opinions which goes against the Country...
Some people understands the situation, some don't.

For example, the riot which happened in China, i wouldn't really blame the over-the-limit riot against the Japanese, but the Government who does not inform enough information to its people, and the lack of education.

However, as a japanese, i do think that the current issues between Japan and Korea/China regarding Koizumi's (Japan's PM) visits to the Yasukuni Jinja should not be tolerated.
At that Jinja, there are high level criminals who lead Japan's war...ofcoure, there are many normal soldiers who didn't want to go to war, which Koizumi regards as praying for those people should not be a bad thing to do...yes, it's not bad, but there are many other jinja's where there are "only" normal soldiers, and not high level criminals..why won't he go there? Koizumi is an id*ot...but for some reason, he is quite popular in Japan....what is happenening to Japan, did they lose their concerns of the countries future? or they simply like Koizumi's un-Primeminister like attitudes?

Sorry it's not "one thing", i won't write anymore.
Last edited by nak on Nov 23rd, '05, 00:17, edited 4 times in total.

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Paige
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Post by Paige » Nov 23rd, '05, 00:05

Racism is stupid... these people are stupid...

but like always, people will never get along... especially people who are too proud of their race and disregard every other race out there... geez...

oh well. utopia doesn't exist, so it's common for this kind of stuff to show up. I really hope relations between Japan and China improve... (hopefully) I mean, the cultures are very different but a lot of Japanese writing was derived from China... as much as we'd like to think we're all different (as we are), there's nothing wrong with being similar. I love Japan, China, Korea, etc... all countries... so I hate this kind of stuff

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mehh chinese

Post by wontonsoupx » Nov 23rd, '05, 01:46

yah 314159 is right...right on brotha

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iki
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Post by iki » Nov 23rd, '05, 02:02

@pokute: you're right. it's not really fair to jump from racism to gender. i guess what i was ask how this relates to us, who consume this kind of thing. i'm sure a lot of us read manga. i was just pointing the the drama to mention something i'd noticed in one.

i say often half jokingly that japan is american in the extreme; that is, you can identify certain cultural patterns that are common to both, which are stronger or more intense in japan. so i think there's a history to american interest in japan. so how then should we think about ourselves? we can watch a drama and think about how racist or sexist it is, but why do we watch it?

i'm not trying to insult anyone here—i certainly include myself. i'm not japanese but am fascinated by japan. and i think there's something to that interest that i'm trying to figure out, and how it relates to these sorts of things that we don't like.

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Re: meeh chinese

Post by Hayashi_kun » Nov 23rd, '05, 17:02

wontonsoupx wrote:Japan is using other asians as a crutch to boost themselves up from asians. They emulate the west sooh much that they dont think themselves as asians no more. They are in denial
again this is such a sweeping statement. pls refrain from such comments if u do not have a really clear idea of what's happening in japan.

from the hollywood movies i see, i cant say every american is racist, can i? (u can correct me if tis is true)

btw i dun mean to make this a big deal, just hope we dun assume w/o making sure. perhaps u can cite examples then we can look into that.

no offence :D

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Post by aisu_kurimu » Nov 23rd, '05, 19:08

^

actually, there might be some truth to that statement. I remember about a decade ago, the trend was to look European in all the Asian countries. Blonde hair, red streaks, Roman noses, and ultra-fair skin were all the rage (to some extent, that's still the same right now.). Even the past Ms. Korea winners were selected by who looked the most European. Now, I think there is a growing trend of the ideal Asian beauty. I forgot which year it was, but Kim Sarang was selected as Ms. Korea partially because the judges found her to represent the ideal Korean beauty best among the other contestants.

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Post by impression151 » Nov 23rd, '05, 19:43

This is what I learned from my Cultural/Racial Sociology class.

Bigotry is when you negatively stereotype other races.

Racism is where you use your race to get the upperhand on another race, as in power. Racism is something people might not be aware of. So yes, everyone is a racist unless you are at the bottom of the food chain and right now, I can't really think of anyone else other than the Native Americans who have not only lost their people, their land, but even their culture.
I did find it funny though, when we were split into our own racials groups (ie blacks, whites, latinos, asians, and 2 middle easterners) and we had to rank each race based on power. Whites were always on top. Asians were always second. Native Americans were last but I did find it funny when one black girl tried to say blacks had it worse cause Native Americans had casinoes and land. And yes, this was at a collegiate level. (oh of course, you had to define power...)

and regarding the looking more Western thing, hasn't there been a history in Asia that the most beautiful (usually because they were rich) women were the whitest because they didn't have to work in the fields with the sun in their face? Of course I can't back this statement up to a certain point in history but this was just one thing my friends and I talked about.

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Post by teamFun » Nov 23rd, '05, 20:15

It seems the white expansionist mentality really worked... Yea, it is true that white always tend to come out on top of the mental racial food chain, especially the idealised white male, which was at one point almost made a science embodied in the principles of eugenics. Its still expanding, albeit at a very mental level.... I remembered the Red Hot Chili Peppers calling it... Californication =P

But certainly, the West still dictates many global trends. Protagonists in Western entertainment, though to a less visible extent today, still glorify the white male. Many of these people do not intend to do that, but its because its so embedded in their culture that no one realises that they are doing that. I am not saying that all media is like that, just that a good proportion are.

It's actually very interesting to study Disney movies like Aladdin, the Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Mulan and so on to see just how much they impose Western ideologies unto other cultures. Mulan was a blatant slap in the face at Chinese culture since the heroine is part of Chinese legend but the film depicts her overpowering Chinese tradition with Western ideologies and continually remarked at the inappropriate nature of Chinese customary practices... they even happily sang songs about it (Mulan 2 makes no attempt to hide this if you are interested in watching something that makes this point amazingly obvious). Aladdin caused an uproar in the Arab community for portraying them as barbarians and essentially also throwing their cultural beliefs out for Western ideals. I was in Malaysia at that time, so I remember quite clearly how upset people were.

Sharing cultures and taking interest in other cultures is alright, but as long as there isn't an unhealthy obsession with it, I think it's okay because it shows appreciation and willingness to accept others. The thing which I am always afraid to encounter is when individuals start to idealise another culture so much that they hate their own race! I have encountered quite a few individuals like that and its amazing how they internalise the other culture so much that they truly believe they are a part of that culture really openly hate people of their own culture as inferior.

Perhaps the hardest question to answer is where do we draw the line? I don't think there should be a line to draw, but I think that there is a need to be sensitive to all cultures those in which we live in and those in which we encounter, otherwise we run the risk of categorisation and that is never too good a thing.
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by groink » Nov 23rd, '05, 20:24

impression151 wrote:Native Americans were last but I did find it funny when one black girl tried to say blacks had it worse cause Native Americans had casinoes and land. And yes, this was at a collegiate level. (oh of course, you had to define power...)
I actually have first-hand experience on this area... My uncle, who is married to my blood-related aunt, has a daughter from his first marriage, who is part Native American. Leaving out the details as I write this, his daughter recently became the heir of a fund, managed by the Native American village in the Vermont area. Until she dies, she receives $20,000 a month from the fund. To show her appreciation for the folks who took care of her, she's sending her half-brother to cooking school in Florida - all expenses paid... Room, board, and tuition.

Now re-think the statement that black girl made. At the moment you're reading this post, I truly believe that in the U.S., the black American has it the worst. Yes, the Native Americans lost their culture, but to me culture doesn't feed you or give you financial comfort. The Native Americans claimed sovereignty with the U.S. a long time ago, which is why they're benefiting from the reservations, no taxes, casinos and bingo, etc. Black Americans have no long-term history in North America like the Native Americans (I'm referring to centuries of history - not just the last 300 years), which is why to this day they still don't have any land rights and other privileges like the Native Americans. Like Malcolm X once said, "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock... Plymouth Rock landed on us!"

The Native Hawaiians are right now trying to make the same arguments about being annexed in 1898, but that's another forum for discussion.

--- groink
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Post by 314159 » Nov 23rd, '05, 20:48

The book's main author and cartoonist, a Japanese named George Akiyama, declined to be interviewed.
Dear George Akiyama!

Every damn words you write in your childish comic book are in chinese. You hate us you hate yourself!

Take a look at these:
ImageImage

We own you, bro George "Bush" Akiyama...

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Post by akkiyachan » Nov 23rd, '05, 21:03

steam wrote:i'm glad the japanese got bombed during WW2. I'm sorry so many innocent civilians got hurt but that act was required.
I've always lurked, but I had to jump into this topic. Whether you pacifists like it or not, the atom bomb ended the war far earlier than otherwise. It took Japan something of that caliber to back down and admit its defeat. That was simply the price of peace. Many more Japanese and American soldiers would have been needlessly killed had the war been dragged out further. Even after Nagasaki got bombed, Japan was deliberating whether it could hold out -- it was planning to fight till the last, including giving up innocent people's lives -- until the emperor stepped forward and renounced his divinity. And despite the hit to Japan's ego, most ordinary Japanese people were relieved that the war was over, especially the youths who would have been conscripted.

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Post by yarichin » Nov 23rd, '05, 21:11

What the hell? Last time I checked the Japanese people as a whole didn't hate Koreans or Chinese. But from my relations with Koreans, they hate the Japanese. Alot of japanese products are banned from import into Korea. Also scholarships and entrance for study in Korea to Japanese students are very picky and often the brightest students are rejected meanwhile hundreds of Koreans receive aid from the Japanese government. While the history is bad with other countries it's not like Japanese people are raised hating people. Their textbooks that are used in public schools do glaze over many topics but that is true with any country. If anything I've felt more racist vibes from Koreans than anyone else.

I'm no Japanese enthusiast myself however, I've studied the literature and politics and have come to realize how much bull-**** the "zen buddhism" ways were and how they were used by the government to brainwash the people into thinking Japan was the supreme form of asian civilization.
Last edited by yarichin on Nov 23rd, '05, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by SouSu » Nov 23rd, '05, 21:20

yarichin wrote:What the hell? Last time I checked the Japanese people didn't hate Koreans or Chinese. But matter of fact Koreans hate the Japanese. Alot of japanese products are banned from import into Korea. While the history is bad with other countries it's not like Japanese people are raised hating people.
Their textbooks that are used in public schools do glaze over many topics but that is true with any country. If anything I've felt more racist vibes from Koreans than anyone else.
ignorance

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Meeh chinese meh play joke put pee pee in your coke

Post by wontonsoupx » Nov 23rd, '05, 21:31

its funny how were soh smart and theres soh many of us were still in second place????wtf?

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Post by aNToK » Nov 23rd, '05, 21:42

impression151 wrote:This is what I learned from my Cultural/Racial Sociology class.

Bigotry is when you negatively stereotype other races.

Racism is where you use your race to get the upperhand on another race, as in power. Racism is something people might not be aware of. So yes, everyone is a racist unless you are at the bottom of the food chain and right now, I can't really think of anyone else other than the Native Americans who have not only lost their people, their land, but even their culture.
Your thoughts later have some merit, but if you're not oversimplifying and putting in your own conclusions as well, then I'd love to have a talk with your instructor on those definitions and inferences sometime.

First, bigotry is a strong bias towards one's own race, religion, social status, etc. and an intolerance of those who do not share those qualities. You can be a bigot who hates rich people, smart people, dumb people, short people, whatever. Though it's most prominent application is with race, that definition is way too simplistic to be considered accurate.

Second, nowhere in the definition of racism will you see any reference to using race to get an upper hand. Only that you feel one race or another is inherently superior to other races. Using race to get ahead is an application of racism, not a definition of it.

And your comment about everyone being a racist is purely ridiculous. Are you assuming it to be a fact that every person out there can and does use his race to try to get ahead at the expense of other races? This is what you inferred, and I hope that that's not what you intended to say. I am definitely offended and call bullshit on someone who's never met me or mine calling me a racist based on an erroneous "definition". (and no, saying that everyone is, so it doesn't matter is bullshit as well, if that response crossed your mind).

Those type of assumptions and lack of critical thinking about what you were "taught" in school are a perfect example of how someone's opinion of word usage or definition can be used to justify ridiculous, but reasonable-sounding conclusions.

Hitler's Mein Kampf (sp?) did that, as did the book that started this thread. So do you wonder why I find the attitudes regarding these propaganda rather than factual base ideas disturbing? It's like playing that gossip game when you're kids. you whisper a message in the ear of the kid next to you, they pass the message to the next, and so on. After only 6 or 7 kids, the message is often very different from the original one, as each child tells their version of the message based on what they thought the child before meant.

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Post by revery » Nov 23rd, '05, 21:48

I've been registered as a user for a while, but this thread forces me to make my first post.

If you think the Japanese are racist cause they have a right to hate, you're ignorant.
If you think the Chinese or the Korean hate Japan particularly, you're ignorant.

The user who created this thread is a moron.
Every country has a long history of racism, some longer than others, some shorter.
In the US, evidence shows that black criminals are shot during crime sprees much more often than white criminals. In Germany, they've had the most hefty history of anti-semitism. So what? Every country has had black slaves imported from africa for centuries.

What I'm getting at, is if you have any education in history, you'd understand that this thread is a waste of time. Every country has its portion of racist people, and everyone is prejudiced in some form. If you are Japanese, Chinese, or Korean, you should know the long history between the countries. How country x invaded country y, and what country z did when country y was attacked, so on so forth. I'm Chinese, I don't hate the Japanese, why should I? I love manga, and anime. My grandparents hate the Japanese though, why, cause i think their parents were killed in a Japanese raid. Doesn't that give you a reason to hate them? Maybe, but the point is, not all Japanese people are racist, and those who are, have their reasons. You can't blame someone for being racist, learn history.

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Post by Childhoodless » Nov 23rd, '05, 22:30

I don't think calling each other morons is productive. It reduces us all when we have to resort to name calling. Also, it adds nothing to the discussion at hand.

Like aNToK has mentioned, this thread itself has turned into a game of "gossip." My initial reasoning for posting such a thread has actually little to do with the racist issue. It's the lackadaisical(sp?) attitude that has been bothering me most. When I first encountered this article, and found discussion on it, most people passed it off, not caring. I was disappointed with the dearth of real discussion on the issue. I had hoped to find people who would at the very least have something substantial to say on the subject.

I'm aware of the racial tensions involved here, as well as the history behind them. I never implied that racism is a new concept to me. I didn't post this thinking or believing this to be a universal among all Japanese. Granted, I can understand why you may think that, with such a thread title, but I will take responsibility for that. In my zeal to find others who care about the issue, I suppose I went overboard in naming this thread in that manner.

And since when does education in history mean that this thread is a waste of time? I don't believe it is. I am extremely impressed with the amount of healthy discussion and decorum this topic has garnered.

However, if you thought it to be a waste of time, revery, why bother replying to begin with?

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Post by teamFun » Nov 24th, '05, 00:35

akkiyachan wrote:
steam wrote:i'm glad the japanese got bombed during WW2. I'm sorry so many innocent civilians got hurt but that act was required.
I've always lurked, but I had to jump into this topic. Whether you pacifists like it or not, the atom bomb ended the war far earlier than otherwise. It took Japan something of that caliber to back down and admit its defeat. That was simply the price of peace. Many more Japanese and American soldiers would have been needlessly killed had the war been dragged out further. Even after Nagasaki got bombed, Japan was deliberating whether it could hold out -- it was planning to fight till the last, including giving up innocent people's lives -- until the emperor stepped forward and renounced his divinity. And despite the hit to Japan's ego, most ordinary Japanese people were relieved that the war was over, especially the youths who would have been conscripted.
I can understand your point and do not argue with it, but pacifism is not about liking the dropping of the atom bomb or not, it is an aversion to use of violent means to solve a problem. The atom bomb seems necessary, but no one was to truly know if that really meant anything significant if history played out different. The reason why I had to argue against that post was the use of one word, 'glad'.

The idea that someone is glad that a populace was bombed is not very healthy. Everyone in this world likes to argue that peace has its price and freedom has its price, I dont disagree but when violence is the reason for sustenance of peace it becomes a dire contradiction that justifies acts of murder and physical harm under prescribed circumstances. The saying, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" shows that when we begin to count freedom and peace in terms of war and murder, then we become blinded by these false presumptions.

When peace promotes violence, it is no longer peace. When freedom promotes force, it is no longer freedom. What I am saying is that in order for us to completely let go of violent solutions we must first never be glad by any acts of violence. The dropping of the atomic bomb and the gladness it brings is but a neutralisation technique to believe that that was just and righteous when in reality it was an act of mass murder and genocide no matter how you look at it.

Necessary and righteous were defined by the winners of the war. Had the situation been reversed we would all be talking about how necessary the Blitzkrieg was, the pounding of London, the rape of Nanking, and all these horrible acts will all be described as necessary evils. Social definitions construct interpretations and all I am trying to say is mass murder is mass murder, and no one should be glad that it ever happened or feel that it was necessary.

Only when we can adjust our mindsets around the notion of retribution and necessities of horrible acts will we finally understand that the task to end violence is overwhelmingly impossible, but someone must act in order to make it a little less impossible.

Gandhi had once said, "An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind." Nonviolence requires self-sacrifice and self-sacrifice is consistent with the notions of peace and freedom. After all, freedom is but a state of mind.
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by rhap » Nov 24th, '05, 00:54

expo1970 wrote: I personally have read the comic books in question and I didn't find any of what it said false. The fact of the matter is, the Koreans and the Chinese started the hatred towards us and the Japanese have only just finally begun to do what any other peoples would do: get peeved. The books in question continuously repeat that they do not want to raise unfounded hatred against Chinese or Koreans. In fact, they raise academic questions. Especially the kenkanryu book (the korean one), it's a reaction to unquestioning love of Koreans. kenkanryu means hating the korean fad which is monopolizing japanese media. If you look at polls today, Japanese people love Koreans by a huuuuge majority while the Koreans still have unfriendly feelings towards us. And you don't need to do polls to tell that Chinese hate us to a point of insanity.

Japanese people are not the ones who should be taking the heat...
so basically, you're saying that the vicious accusations made against China and Korea are true? Is that right? So you agree with the text when it "portrays the Chinese as a depraved people obsessed with cannibalism". I find that extremely offensive - I am Chinese and I am NOT obessed with cannabalism.

And how could the text dismiss such a brutal moment of history - Rape of Nanking - men, women and children were ruthlessly tortured and killed. Not all Chinese hate or have 'unfriendly feelings' towards the you, the Japanese - in fact many Chinese people like watching anime and jdorama. It's comments like yours which exacerbate the issue.

It is extremely saddening that people in this world are still so racist...

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Post by pokute » Nov 24th, '05, 01:08

@akklyachan - By the time the bomb was dropped, Japan had already fought to the last man, the entire country was starving, and the home guard were reduced to training with bamboo spears and eating weeds and tree bark. We dropped the bomb because we were an intensely racist country that considered the Japanese to be no better than animals. I suggest you look at some newspapers from the time around when the bombs were dropped and see how the Japanese were presented to the American people before you ascribe any highfalutin' moral imperative to the use of the bomb. And then follow up your reading of the U.S. papers by reading Black Rain.

(I suppose I should clarify - that is why we dropped the bomb *on Japan*. The reason we dropped the bomb was to demonstrate to Stalin that we could play the game too.)

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Post by teamFun » Nov 24th, '05, 01:19

I always thought the US dropped the bomb because they wanted to experiment its effects on actual human subjects just as they did with their own troops. I knew the US was racist, but didnt think it was racist enough to motivate such a cruel act.

Do you think then, that the motivation for the Highway of Death incident was the same? Just curious, since you are so well-read, I was wondering if you had any theories as to why the US committed something so atrocious to unarmed civilians and returning soldiers.

That act always confused me and the image of the charred body trapped in the truck disturbs me to this day. I can never think of why the US did something so terrible...
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by pokute » Nov 24th, '05, 01:34

@teamFun - For incidents as recent as that (among others) I have recourse to something much better than books. I have talked to soldiers who fought in Iraq, and I can tell you that pretty much any behaviour that anyone could come up with in their sick perverted little head was tacitly approved of. You are certainly aware of Abu Ghraib, and I am sure you don't think that was a unique incident that occured in a vacuum. I have heard firsthand accounts of rape and robbery by U.S. soldiers, so nothing would strike me as being unusually cruel behaviour. This has always been what war is about, anyway.

The best description of war on the ground was written by a fellow named Grimmelshausen in the 16th century, and it is still accurate today.

Ah, of course, I also had a friend who worked in Army Intelligence in Iraq who says that he never saw any U.S. soldier engage in discourteous behaviour at any time, and he was telling the truth too. He currently works for the NSA where he engages in illegal monitoring of computer network traffic. He likes his work and he says that anybody that's not doing anything wrong has nothing to worry about.

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Post by teamFun » Nov 24th, '05, 01:41

True, in many ways I expected Abu Ghraib and everything that has been churned out recently. Those were of no surprise to me whatsoever and I have read my European history and understand that ground warfare has an extremely ugly face...

There is just something about that Highway that really sickens me to the core though. Whereas everything else I had already expected... torture, rape, humiliation and all the hoopla... It was something about that Highway that really struck me hard...

Thank you for your time and reply, your insights as well as those of a good number of people here are much appreciated! =)
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by pokute » Nov 24th, '05, 01:48

To try and tie things back to the original topic... given the opportunity to misbehave and not get caught, many people will go right up to the last extreme without hesitating. Sometimes they get a surprise and get caught, and then we get a glimpse of the ugliness that is lurking just beneath the surface of the humanity we swim in. There are just enough people who can control their baser urges to keep everything from just going right to hell in an instant, but only just enough, and they exercise a moderating effect by being good examples. Unfortunately they can't be everywhere at once.

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Post by teamFun » Nov 24th, '05, 04:15

That is in line with the classical school of thought on humanity put forward by Beccaria and Quetelet before him, but there is always something about those theories that make me wonder. The statement reminds me of Aristotle's observation that humans, when law abiding are perhaps the best of animals, but when without law they certainly are the worst of them all.

Perhaps its because of my stubborness, but I have a lot of faith in humanity and although I know that faith may be betrayed many times, I persist in the faith that humans are born neither good nor evil. I dont believe that our base urges are to be destructive nor are they to be constructive, but that these urges are only given meaning through social constructions within our cultures.

More to the point of this topic, anger and hatred are given expression when we teach our fellow humans how to respond to these situations. The same with love and happiness, although we feel these feelings because of our hormonal and biological processes, we cannot express or comprehend them without our cultures. I think that a lot of people in these countries feel negative emotions because of what they hear and then these negative emotions are channeled and given voices through their culture and more usually than not, through the media.

I feel that these comic books are started by people who attempted to rationalise their animosity towards these groups, and people who only heard about what these peoples have done to them will be convinced that the books hold truth and thus direct and rationalise their emotions to fit in the given context. Especially striking is the mention that one of the contributors to the Chinese comic book is from Taiwan, a nation known to harbour deep hostility for the mainland Chinese. It's ironic that our Taiwanese friend manages to claim that the Chinese are cannibalistic and yet mention that the only good thing they have to offer is their food.

Perhaps this is the same with war... sometimes I am not surprised and I really do not blame the soldiers, but usually believe that its those in the upper echelons that created the mess. I think war brings out the worse in humans not because of our base urges but because of the situation we are presented with. In war, the worst sin in human definitions, the termination of life, is committed over and over again and in such a context and culture, people respond to their emotions in the most extreme of fashions, not by choice, but by conviction.

I cant say for sure since nothing can really be certain and there are so many ways to look at the world. I am only a student, trying to learn from the world around me... my observations are not thorough and my reading not exhaustive, so again, my authority on these issues are questionable. But this is my take on human nature and humanity so far as I have read.
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by kamen555 » Nov 24th, '05, 10:27

If you think this is bad, wait til these countries open up to immigration, people of another race will be the main target, not the asians. They'll face the same challenges as America and France, etc. Though I don't think it'll happen since asia has too many poor people to accept from.
BTW, white people are not only from the West, there are white people in the East too (Eastern Europe) and their culture is very different from Western cultures.
I can see the difference between white, black and asians but what about the people in between, race is different from ethnicity.
No one knows what race were the Egyptians, some say white, some say black, others say they were multi-racial.

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Post by 314159 » Nov 24th, '05, 18:30

I'm taiwanese. It's a shame.

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Post by nikochanr3 » Nov 24th, '05, 18:49

you do know that this is all reciprocal, right? it sounds like japan has these racist elements and that'st just awful, but their are recipriocal racist elements against japanese in taiwan, korea and especially china.

this is a problem they ALL need to deal with. it sounds like one article was picked, and its OH THOSE RACIST JAPANESE. it cuts both ways...

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Post by nikochanr3 » Nov 24th, '05, 18:50

im also dismayed that the leechers downloadng and NEVER posting pop out only to say something about racist japanese.

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Post by kinki » Nov 24th, '05, 18:51

you'll find racism anywahere where human lives. its just the human nature! as long as we are human we'll be reciest. few days ago i watched Operah show and they said, ppl can be reciest if within their mind they thought the "N" word i.e. "n*ger" so only thinking in your mind about this work is considered being reciest!
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Post by spacecommand » Nov 24th, '05, 19:10

Reading this thread is like watching an episode of Crossfire on CNN, get a bunch of people who disagree with each other and nothing productive comes out of it.

Racism exists in all corners of the earth, from mild to extreme cases. One should not be suprised there is racism in Japan, China, Korea, Russia, France, UK, US, Germany you name it theres racism in all parts.

So whats the point here of this thread? To discuss racism, why is there racism? Everyone has thier own opinions, some charged by emotional feelings, some the news media, some just getting on the bandwagon.

Anyone knows from other forums and websites that discussing racism and people's opinions on them always end up bad for the thread, ends up with name callings, and nothing utlimatly gets accomplished.

I say this thread be closed. Thats just my 2cents.

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Post by Hayashi_kun » Nov 24th, '05, 19:20

i'm feeling v sad reading the prev page of posts.
im bursting inside me to hurl abuse but i guess that would make things worse.

this thread started because of racism portrayed in a comic. the ppl voicing out their hatred towards japanese did not even experience racism. the comic is not a representative of all japanese.

casting the japan case aside, i wanna say there are also conflicts among the chinese themselves. im chinese myself and i wonder if any other chinese here know abt the rivalry among china, taiwan, hongkong and singapore chinese... we can discuss it here and perhaps we can reveal our ugliness...

i hope im not flaming anything but just want to shift the attention.

note: im not targeting at any nationality i mentioned

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Post by Hayashi_kun » Nov 24th, '05, 19:22

spacecommand wrote: I say this thread be closed. Thats just my 2cents.
i posted b4 i read ur post, and i think it should be closed too.
if not im gonna continue, yet trying to retain my cool.

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Post by CLoud Nine XVI » Nov 24th, '05, 19:49

The fact of the matter is. There's no point. Racism and prejudice is gonna be around for a long time. Because no one is perfect. No ethnic is perfect. You can't sit here and tell me that you don't feel the slightest racism, or prejudice for any ethnic group atleast some times. If you don't, then you haven't been out there. Yes, stereotypes, racism, and prejudice are terrible. But we all know that, so why say it like we know it more than anyone else. I'm pretty sure, these racist people are saying to themselves: "Yes racism is bad, but I can't help it!" Yeah, that's a sad excuse. But think about the kind of suffering they had to go through to conjure this belief that it is okay to hate another ethnic group. Don't take racism lightly. It hits us all. Some of us like to deny it, "because its BAD." Yeah we know it is. But we do it anyway. Not by force. It just happens. You can say whatever you want. But I know people. I know that there is a hint of prejudice in there somewhere. That's why we all love racist jokes sometimes. Chris rock and Margret Cho.. Hello???

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am japanese living in NYC. One of very few places where there shouldn't be any racial profiling. A place so full of immigrants, I would blend in. A place where every gets a REAL chance to be themselves. But when I grew up here, I was the target of every Korean group. They did terrible things to me. I've been kicked, made fun of, gum in my books, hair, etc. My mother raised me not to be racist. When I finally told her what my life was like during my younger days, recently (I'm 21 now). She became very angry. I was not. But for a mother to hear these things, it's painful. I understand. But she doesn't let it control how she feels about a Korean person. She and I still have hope. But its just very difficult. You see them throwing garbage off their balcony, cuz they don't want to come down. And the garbage bag breaks open and the landlord (who is also korean) has to clean it up the lawn. There are neighbors who don't even say "hi" to us. The only neighborly friend we had was a black guy that lived upstairs.

With all this said, there are some things about another ethnics belief that doesn't run with us. Ours don't appeal to them either. Nevertheless, My mother and I, both have Korean and chinese friends. And we keep them, because they're good people. It's just that sometimes, you see people portraying these negative stereotypes. And stereotypes shouldn't be neglected. Because they come from somewhere. There is truth behind it. So when we see these unmannerly acts, we get mad. Sure we say, "These damn Koreans!" "These damn Chinese!", "These damn Americans!", "These damn Blacks" etc! But we even say, "These damn Japanese!" every now and then.

Yes, the Japanese are racist. But this racism is not in the context of American meanings.
In Japan, racism is not dealt with discrimination. It's more like ethnocentrism. And the view of, "They're not one of us, so they won't understand our superior way of living." You also have to understand that the japanese economy doesn't run on resources. It runs on ideas. (When a nation must depend on ideas rather than materials/natural resources, we're eventually gonna think we're brighter! Common sense.) Because of this, we go easy on people of other nationalities, we're nicer to them, We try to understand them. But there are times where we can't understand everything. Like, I can't understand why I had to be singled out and couldn't be friends with any of the Korean girls. (I was the only Japanese, besides my brother, and he seemed to be a loner. Had a few white, black, chinese, and hispanic friends. Actually one of each.) My lines were "What did I ever do to you!?" and "But we're all asians, we're all the same!" They responded, "No, we're koreans." In the midst of all this, one Korean girl thought about what I said, and she became my friend. I know a number of other Japanese kids who went thru the same thing. But we all decided, for it to not get the best of us. We decided, to give everyone a chance. Hoping that they won't do terrible things like rip us off at a korean market, or electronic store just because we don't speak the same language. I've been ripped off a couple of times. I get mad because despite my childhood, I trusted them.

But luckily, there aren't as many racist people as you think there are. Only a few really messed up ones who seem to make everyone else look bad. If it makes all this worth anything, I do have Korean and Chinese friends I can't live without. SO folks, try and understand, not racism as the political/idealistic problem, but as a result of flaws in every ethnic group.

But I personally never made a judgement of other people without getting screwed first. Even with that, it never carries on to the next. But when you get as old as my mom,seeing the same stereotypes over and over, patience starts to run thin.

Regarding the article. Japanese people like to embrace truth. When we do terrible things, we admit it and put our head down and formally appologize in front of the world. We believe that there is no point hiding the truth. No shame. It doesn't matter to us that we're making a country look bad. They only look bad when they deny it and go about their business, never changing or advancing for a better future. That is what we don't like. Cowards who refuse to change because they're comfortable where they're at. You can't get ahead being comfortable. You can't be comfortable all through out your lives. Strive!!!!

I'm sincerely sorry to those I might've offended... infinity appologies to those I've offended plus a couple more for this long entry ><;;; But um, I love people. Because they surprise me. Everyone, to me, is worth the hope despite the disappointment. But I won't be sad for too long. I have to pass the hope to another soon! XD. Take care folks!

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Post by wingli » Nov 24th, '05, 19:50

canon05 wrote:The comics are racially prejudiced againts China and Korea. The Japanese people who hold grudge against China and Korea are like the neo-Nazi. But I know that not all Japanese people are that bad. I have Japanese friends too, they're nice just like others. Actually I wish people of many different races were living side by side peacefully just like the high schools where children of many different races work on their projects together.

I agree racism is still out there. A little off topic----people never or do little learn their past---take the latest war as an example, after 2 WWs, there are still more wars. You know where they occur. It's only from the political perspective. It's the common people/citizens who suffer from these troubles caused by the gov't.

Sorry if I did offend you, I just feel that I should be explaining this. Peace out.
it's isn't the fault of the crow of japanese , it's the japanese government , it have a propaganda of nationalist and a kind of hostility toward chinese and korea . For ewample, i know, the work book of history don't really "the thruth" to the students, they minimize the crime of the japanese
i aggree with u, that they are neo nazi.
ps: i have nothing againt japanese, i love their entertainement, clothing...

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Post by Hayashi_kun » Nov 24th, '05, 20:01

Cloud Nine XVI: im glad that u're posting ur thoughts as a japanese.. and im beginning to understand racism more clearly

however, i can foresee ppl going to bombard ur statements.

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Post by SHD » Nov 24th, '05, 20:06

at this point i disagree about closing this thread.

we have threads about who's subtitling what and file sizes that have deteriorated in less than 2 pages and this one has continued at least 8, thanks to some insightful and very few inflamatory posts.

i am glad that in this entertainment based forum (d-addicts) we can have a discussion on relevant and timely issues side by side with lighter topics like what/where to eat and what we drive, etc.

racism in Japan is a very timely subject as we can see the nation is going opposite directions at the same time. I can see this family scenerio, father is a member of the Diet, thumping his chest about the Koreans and Dokdo Island and campaigning for the re-establishment of the military. Meanwhile his wife is on a seperate vacation junket with hundreds of other middle age Japanese women to see where" Winter Sonata" was filmed and hoping to catch a glimpse of Yongsama. His kids have stood in line for hours to see "A Moment to Remember" and listening to BOA. entertainment and pop culture (which we are all about here) is all about crossover. this has stirred nationalistic and racist opposition such as the comic originally mentioned.

there's been expansion into what's happening in other countries, some reading suggestions, references to historical backgrounds, etc. what could have been a inflamatory thread so far has become one worth continuing.

--hey look another good post as i was writting this (and one, well...)

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Post by zdoon » Nov 24th, '05, 20:21

Why does Cloud Nine's anecdotes all reek of bs? Simple answer is that because it probably is. But the questionable veracity of that guy's posts is one thing but in his words it's already easy to see a racist mentality that holds to any number of stereotypes that the average American person wouldn't be able to identify with. The reason for that is simple. His construct of stereotypes, the angle of his post as it wavers between elaborating stereotypes and supporting them all the while being apologetic for racism period, is mere inculturation only. There's nothing really emperical about his accounts, except he has a mindset given to him by his mother culture and his parents and he's taught to selectively expect some things from a certain people and he's given negative prejudices in regard to them. This is how racism self-perpetuates and it's really easy to see, unfortunately, how many people can be dupes of its cycles.

Koreans may not like Japanese for whatever reason (that's what happens when a people are colonized for a few decades...), but we don't generalize on people's behaviors. Our is a political sentiment. It may be racial but it's not racist. We don't go around pigeonholing everyone's behaviors by negative stereotypes, which imo is the defining characteristic of true racism, the worst sort.
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Post by teamFun » Nov 24th, '05, 20:32

I personally dont see the thread going to shreds, although I admit that some views were a little extreme. But the thing about it is that these debates are supposed to generate a discussion in which all people can see that all sides have something to say and that all sides contributed to this, like nikochanr3 mentions.

Whether anything comes out of this or not is up to the people who are willing to read it and try and come up with personal solutions. Solutions must first arise from individual efforts to try and make constructive efforts to change the world they live in.

This thread only serves as a vessel for people with opinions to deliberate and hopefully reflect on their own views and see what they can do as individuals to help alleviate the problem.

I think the discourse is not a waste of time, because if we do not discuss this issue then who will? A lot of people approach racism and a whole slew of social issues by saying "That's just the way it is" but it isnt. These things can change, but people have to voice themselves and share opinions with open minds for there to be progress. This thread has endured little name calling so far, sure there are some but there is a general sense of respect and those that call names are usually put in line.

Crossfire seems a waste of time because these people will lie just to make their point valid sometimes, but in this thread anything that is based on insufficient research or reading goes under close scrutiny and correction. That is a little more constructive than Crossfire.

When we dismiss these things as beyond help and fail to generate discussion, we contribute to the situation by allowing it to exist and ignoring it by saying that's the way things work. Sure its everywhere, but we cant say that we play no part in allowing to be everywhere, we are also guilty of inaction.

I think that we have to understand that it is not the population that is to blame for this but again, it is the few people in power that have vested interests in continuing these attitudes and persisting these beliefs. History continues to show many things are caused not be consensus of the population but by the will of only a handful of people.

Everyone is responsible for this mess though. Chinese, Korean, and Japanese, we are all in this together and as individuals we can try to do what we can do to try and help one another understand better rather than dismissing it as something we all can't help. It can be helped, although the results may seem small and futile, eventually human society will be able to stem racism. Maybe not in 10 years, nor 100, neither 1,000, but eventually, if we persist and endure.

I have been a victim of racism and still am sometimes, but I do not curse those that hate me, it is not their fault they think that way... So I understand how it feels to be hurt by racists, but I choose to try and talk to them despite these risks. I have befriended one of them and we talk a lot now, one person out of 12 billion people and about a year and a half to achieve it. Insignificant but still it is one.

I think there is hope that we could slowly alleviate this, but in order for this hope to come true we must all actively work against it.

To quote from three great scholars:

"The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity." - George Bernard Shaw

"I can not do everything, but I can do something. I must not fail to do the something that I can do." - Helen Keller

"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

On a side note: I think it's unfair to say Cloud Nine's post reeks, because it is his view on things and his understanding through his experiences. We can listen, but if you disagree you can politely disagree and present your points, zdoon. This will only serve to start people wanting to get at each other's throats because of emotive reasons and that is really not the purpose of these discussions. That said, I do see both yours and Cloud Nine's points.
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by zdoon » Nov 24th, '05, 20:43

don't miss the point. my input, however, has properties that can be evaluated. it's objective or, at least, it's as objective as one can expect subjects of this sort to be which invariably does involve bs. the very ? of bs is a natural member of the discussion.

anyway, as far as i'm concerned, there's no need for all the long-winded self-righteous verbiage. racism is not a complex subject requiring loads of intellection to understand. it's more a behavior which one corrects or exerts. that is as deep as it gets.
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Post by CLoud Nine XVI » Nov 24th, '05, 21:07

Thanks you guys. It's okay ^^. I'm a girl, not a guy tho hehe. I know my opinion is clearly personal. I guess my statements weren't too clear, because I was just typing away. but, I guess I just wanted people to see that there are reason for everything, including hatred. There are just times when you hate people in general. And I don't blame them. I don't think it's right, but I don't blame them. They'll find a way to forgive. I do it all the time. I don't like hating or being angry with people at all. It's this heavy feeling you get, and it just weighs you down. And later you feel like you wanna spread wings and just fly away, but that just doesn't happen. but we all know that, so I try not to. I'm a person who don't like to get involved. As you can see, even though I've been a member for some time, I've only posted 4, 5 comments now. This discussion just hit home. ><;; despite the critism I'll get, I don't mind. People have a hard time believing that there are people like the ones you see on Jdramas and Animes who finds time to care even about the worst people. But I won't join the dark siiiiide!!!!!! XD

PS, why does every assumes I'm a guy. Perhaps my user name isn't cute at all. ><;;;

Have a happy holiday! :D

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Post by teamFun » Nov 24th, '05, 21:34

zdoon, from what you are saying, then almost all social phenomena does not need any investigation. Racism, like all emotive responses, stem from somewhere it is not simple a behaviour. What you say neglects its sources, history, and ultimately its solutions.

If it were so simple then everyone should simply correct it and the world can move on smoothly, but it is not because of its multifacet sources. It is a deep issue and to say what you said displays how little to care for the issue. Racism and sexism, if they really are so shallow, can easily be eliminated, but because it is so deeply entrenched in social structures and interactions that it is not easy to eliminate.

How can you make someone who 'exerts' racism change to 'correct' it? Under your understanding, you simply turn the 'exert' switch off and turn on the 'correct' switch. I agree, but how do you turn these switches, if not first for a deep understanding of its social context and constructions?

Cloud Nine's account is a qualitative account and so it is not your right to mark it as rubbish since you do not know how true it is, unless you did a background check. To properly understand her statement you must understand the concept of verstehen, outlined by Max Weber, which means you need to try and conceive yourself in the same situation before you pass judgement.

I do not miss your point either, since you did call for evidence and empirical support. But as many phenomenologists point out, this notion can miss the important point of the feelings of a community, which ultimately invalidates your attempts to understand them.

Sorry for the long-winded self-righteous verbiage, but I was trying to offer some solutions rather than shut off all opportunities for dialogue. Again, you neednt accept what was said, only listen and refute if you feel that there is a point to refute. I advise you to look further into racism, because it is a serious matter warranting serious scrutiny and should not be lightly waved off.

If we continue to think its not that big a deal, we will only continue to ignore it as something that doesnt really concern us and referring back to my last post, this will only mean that we are passively condoning it. I love to quote Hitler's statement on this, because it never seems to fail me... "What luck for rulers that men do not think." If we pass it off and stop thinking about it because it is so shallow, we will ultimately allow it to fester.

Cloud Nine, I dont know, I assumed you were a guy because you mentioned something about Korean girls and my very biased mind assumed you were... umm... chasing them. My bad... =P
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Post by SouSu » Nov 25th, '05, 00:49

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but this is George Akiyama's site: http://www.george-akiyama.com/

If you want, you can spam him ^^;;

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Post by infimum » Nov 25th, '05, 06:18

FYI, the NYT article in question is written by Norimitsu Onishi who is infamous for putting Japan in unfavorable light all the time. Rumor has it that he is an ethnic Korean who has a grudge agaist Japan.

Check out the blog http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=104

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Post by TNF » Nov 25th, '05, 06:25

It doesn't matter who "started" it.

It take's two for hate.

It take's two for racism.

Think about it, how could you hate someone who loves you?
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teamFun
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Post by teamFun » Nov 25th, '05, 08:17

infimum, nice work. That was indeed a very enlightening article you presented and it really draws careful criticism for the author of that article. Thank you for the find, that is definitely helpful to those of us who have not actually seen or read the manga.

Nonetheless, I must concede that racism still has to be addressed, so I hope that we could all address it in our personal lives through resilience and determination to do what is 'right'. =) Racism is still a problem around the world and although we have managed to discredit the author of the article, it could also be argued that he was also motivated by racist sentiments as well. So we should continue to address racism in our lives, but I do feel that this thread has run its course. I may be wrong though...

By the way, tikleabubble, I know what you mean and agree that it is hard to hate someone who loves you but its not impossible... This might sound contrary to common understanding, but love and hate are emotions that seem extremely close to one another though they may appear at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Statistically speaking, homicide usually occurs between people who actually know each other and spousal homicide tends to be marked with several characteristics, one of which is overkill. Just trying to say its possible, so always remember to balance good times against the bad times when going through a rough spot. =)
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

314159
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Post by 314159 » Nov 25th, '05, 23:12

http://www.occidentalism.org/

I think this site is pro-Japanese site. So no hope for a neutral point of view.

Take a look at this blog: http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=94

It declare this photo as a fake. Maybe it's a fake, maybe it's real. We don't know. But we know the destruction of war from the background. And this is real in the time when there's no hollywood in china.

A quote from the blog:
As I have demonstrated before, most of these photographs are simply wartime propanganda against the Japanese. They were useful in motivating the population against Japan in war time, but have no place in this time of peace with Japan.
Ignoring the history will lead us in a new war for sure. So better to be motivated to say "sorry" before it's too late.

nikochanr3
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Post by nikochanr3 » Nov 25th, '05, 23:29

i think we all need to recognize the "fringe" elements and not try to generalize them. are there any koreans on the board? go to japan - talk to some people. if you are nice, chances are they will LOVE you. go to taiwan if you are japanese - its the same. a lot of this "hatred" of each other's races is very specific to certain people, or due to government propoganda, or due to select groups of stupid people.

my point is, i think a lot of you on the board are of different races, and are feeling boxed in and lashing out, and that's pointless cause i think if most of you met each other on the street, there would be no racist feelings at all.

and you all are the "populaces" being discussed as racist, no?

:cussing: i'm still dismayed at some people discussing this who have only 4 posts (all on this topic) who are the angriest, it seems. to only engage in discourse to "complain" seems insincere to me.

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CamCam
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Post by CamCam » Nov 26th, '05, 06:30

Racism is ignorance no matter what culture and despite their level of education. Hate is bred from one generation to the next. When you grow up being taught something is right no matter how wrong it really is your going to act exactly how you saw those around you acting.

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Post by Xi@h » Nov 26th, '05, 06:55

Well, racism is not only in Japan, it's everywhere so talking about that is useless (just my two cents)

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teamFun
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Post by teamFun » Nov 26th, '05, 08:01

I dont think talking about it is useless, but I must say, perhaps we should change the title to only 'racism' since I recall the title has been changed once before, why not change it again to reflect the evolution of the thread's discussion?

I just think this is a great opportunity to talk to one another instead of just screaming to high heavens about everything. Because racism is everywhere, talking about it in an international forum would make more sense than talking about it in a specific community's forum right? (fine, we are also considered a community since we all have interests in Asian drama, hence our presence here... but you know what I mean when I say international community... =P)

There are two sides to every story and the truth tends to lie on neither side, this is why the blog was a good look at another side, hence it was useful information to re-evaluate the news that we have just heard. The charge on the New York Times being selective is not new and has been shown to hold some truth in it, and the occidentalism article merely shows another perspective of looking at the same thing. The point is that neither one is completely believable, but neither is completely dismissable either, so the truth lies somewhere in between.

nikochanr3 makes a great point again to say that it is likely that if we all met in person we wont be screaming like hell at one another and as CamCam said, racism breed through ignorance. Thus, this thread could help break the ignorance and teach us all something from other people. That is what discussion is supposed to be about, so that's why I think that it's not really that useless to talk about it.

I certainly learnt a lot from this thread and it has forced me to put my thoughts into words, which is not always easy for me. I do wish to thank everyone for sharing and the lessons they have imparted, albeit some of it is a little bit extreme and sometimes inappropriate, but in general it hasnt been too bad a place to learn. =)
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

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Childhoodless
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Post by Childhoodless » Nov 26th, '05, 08:37

As per teamFun's request, the title has been changed to just "Racism."

And I disagree with all those who believe the thread to be closed or that the discussion is either moot or useless. It seems that we got a lot of good information and some perspective on the issue. Talking about it is the first step. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

I learned more than I expected from this thread. And like the old GI Joe cartoon cliche goes, "Knowing is half the battle." When we are more enlightened on the entire situation, rather than just one side, we can better understand it, and can work together to fix it.

We may not completely eliminate racism by having this discussion, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should stop it altogether. Just because the problem has a seemingly improbable or impossible solution, that doesn't mean we should stop trying. When we give up hope on the matter, when we stop trying, then the problem has beat us.

314159
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Post by 314159 » Nov 26th, '05, 13:29

It seems it's going to an end without good solution.

There are proganda and interpretation from or for the chinese side or from or for the japanese side, so the whole thing is in a quasi-static moment.
The future will teach how will it going on.

Here are two interessting quotes about the future:

"War is merely a continuation of politics" Carl von Clausewitz (born in 1780).

"War is a big venture, it's the beginning of life or death, it's the way to survive or the way to the fall" Sun Zi (ca. 500 BC).

I got the warning and you?

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teamFun
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Post by teamFun » Nov 26th, '05, 20:38

I understand the meaning of those two quotes not as warnings of the future, but the ways in which the authors contextualise and explain war. Human history has been littered with war, death, and destruction, for that I do not refute anything. Indeed, it is war that brings about revolution and war that brings the end of oppression most of the time. Thomas Jefferson had remarked that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

The world and times have changed from the past however, and we stand at a time when human history has not only amassed enough experience to learn from the errors of our predecessors, but also at a time when ideas of peace and resilience have gained substantial credibility. Philosophy, social sciences, arts and humanities have advanced enough to add insight to how these may become possible someday. Not today, but surely someday.

Jefferson himself allowed the possibility that he be refuted some day, commenting that "Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." We live in a world where information is equated to power, in this generation wars are fought not only in the battlefield but also in the realm of thoughts. Information has become such a valuable commodity that governments and even normal people go out of their way to protect it. When we open discussion, we ultimately try to disseminate knowledge and opinion, we learn and teach at the same time and together look for ways to co-operate instead of incinerate one another.

Persian Prophet Bahá'u'lláh had written in his Proclamation: "Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

The Great War (World War I) was supposed to be the war to end all wars but it only precipitated to World War II, and with all the fighting and violence in the news today, it seems that humans have learnt nothing. But amidst all the news stories that we are told, there are less wars today than there have ever been in recent history. If you need proof, here is Marshall and Gurr's latest 99-page report on world conflict titled Peace and Conflict 2005. The file is in PDF format and is published by the Centre for International Development and Conflict Management at the University of Maryland.

I do not underestimate the ablity of humans to incite war on one another, but I do see that we live in times when there is some hope for peace in the future and we have to individually address it in our lives. Understanding that war is the only way or is a necessity only leaves us the option of killing one another when we get too frustrated and that is a dangerous line to walk.

In the same way, racism can also be addressed, but each and every one of us must work together, not bombard one another. One of the most enlightening things I have learnt in the course of my studies can be summed up in three words from Berger and Luckman's book, The Social Construction of Reality (1966), and that is that "Reality is negotiable." When we begin to view the world and what encompasses "reality" as issues of social construction, we begin to understand its origins, underlying meanings, and persistent existence. Racism is a social construction and like all social constructions, it can be defeated (or exacerbated) through reconstruction and redefinition via discussion and consequently reinterpretation.

This can also be part of the solution of the Sino-Japanese propaganda war. We can help by trying to expose these messages from both sides as lies concocted by our governments and not by our peoples. It's all about 'making reality' and if we can speak to the people louder than our governments, we can generate friendships and understandings.

I still purport that good solutions could come out of this discussion and that there is indeed a lot of hope to learn from one another. Cloud Nine shared with us her personal experiences, despite coming under heavy fire while zdoon was right in demanding empirical support for notions that were discussed. We saw that although the New York Times article held credibility, the occidentalism article also put things in a different perspective that allowed us to counterbalance views. I have gained a nice reading list for the Christmas, thanks to pokute, and there have been discussions on what racism means and its consequences. On top of that, racist statements have also been voiced here and we can see examples of it as we speak. People have said that it was useless, while others have seen that there is hope. So many sides and factors in this little debate, I can't see why this discussion is bad. We learnt a lot, shared a lot, helped a lot. I concede that these types discussions tend to have no end conclusion because we are open to the views of everyone, but at least there is good discussion and alternative thoughts to share with one another.

I really like to thank Childhoodless for the topic and all that it has sparked. Again, I have learnt a lot and am continuing to learn. 314159, thank you for the quotes, I have added it into my large list of quotes... I am a quote fiend, I love them to bits! =D One of my favourites from Sun Tzu (Sun Zi) is
:
"Be so subtle that you are invisible. Be so mysterious that you are intangible. Then you will control your rivals' fate." from The Art of War =)
"Amicus Plato— amicus Aristoteles— magis amica veritas" ~ Isaac Newton

nikochanr3
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Post by nikochanr3 » Nov 27th, '05, 03:31

The best way to fight racism is by exposing as many people as possible to as much of the race as possible. My wife is japanese, and me and her (a puerto rican from ny and a japanese from kawaski) are much more similar than probably most japanese couples both from the same country. i have always been obsesive on asian pop culture (movies, drama, music) and i think i have exposed more people to more things than a lot of people, and it is never bad. the more you know, the more you know.

when i was young someone explained racism to me as building a basketball team. Would i only pick from one school? from one country? from one kind of people? of course not! i want to win.///

life is like that too....it so sad that some people completely close themselves off from some experiences, and from some people due to that type of ignorance.

:goggle: you have different skin, therefore i hate you. When you really say it like that, its so...bizarre....

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