[Discussion] Innocent Love - Horikita Maki (Fall 2008)

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chocoasaurus
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Post by chocoasaurus » Nov 12th, '08, 14:40

Nomanymore wrote:
toyotaku wrote:
Nomanymore wrote:I think..
It was Youji who entered into her room to carry her outside after putting the fire.. remember the 1st scene?..
Anyway, I surely don't want to see Kanon to become the real murderer O_o
Whoa! I didn't even think of that! You might be right. But...
Even if she did kill her parents, there would be justification if she was abused in the form of self-defense/preservation. I certainly wouldn't ever think of her as a "murderer."
yea, I think so too.. they showed a scene where she sneak through the door when her father scolds Youji..
but in anyway, i can't imagine a child can stab 2 adults O_o
Ano... Do U think Kanon's mom killed her husband in order to protect Kanon from being abused and after that, she killed herself?
Youji, who know the truth, wanted to hide it, burned the house???
Kanon lost her memories bc she saw her mom kill her dad and suicided before her "little eyes"
:mrgreen: M.O.A.T.A.M.4 :mrgreen:
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fleng
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Post by fleng » Nov 12th, '08, 16:59

303aegiszx wrote:
charia-chan wrote:@birainyamapise7en

Actually I am the one doing the translations for IL for Querbeet.^^
Thank you for watching works by Querbeet.
We are working hard and I really think ep 1 subs will be out very soon.
As far as I know, no other group is subbing this.
Actually there are a few groups subbing this. There are also some independant users/groups on LJ subbing IL as well. :-)

Episode 4 was amazing.. I cannot wait for episode 5 now.
link for those groups and independents on LJ subbing this dorama please :D

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Post by totemokakkoii » Nov 13th, '08, 03:15

yep.. i enjoy the newest episode too. I think the show is getting better, and more interesting.
btw, i think yoji might just be the real killer.. the way he hit the reporter with the hammer really freaks me out. seemed like he is really capable of doing such things.. maybe yoji killed the parents to protect kanno and kanno witnessed the killing and was tramautized.

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Post by fleng » Nov 13th, '08, 10:00

eng subs torrent is out...

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Post by nix_renji » Nov 13th, '08, 11:34

I can totally understand Kanon not wanting to tell Junya about Youji since she doesn't want to scare him away.

But what the hell does Youji has against Junya? All he does is get her a music box and gave her two jobs. Youji should be thanking Junya for taking care of Kanon :blink
And may I add Mizuki is such a psycho :mrgreen:

Ah~ all this speculation is killing me :lol
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Post by Nomanymore » Nov 13th, '08, 14:07

^ That's what I've been thinking too... Did the guy do anything? O_o

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Post by emmy21 » Nov 13th, '08, 14:58

Just watched ep4. Hmm...
So the reporter thinks that the one who murdered the parents is actually Kanon. I don't think he's dead either.

I'm not so sure if Kanon was actually abused by her father. She seems to have lots of happy memories about her childhood, other than not being able to remember what happened that X'mas eve night.

Unless Kanon really had selective memory loss about the abuse incidents only?

I really wonder what secret Yoji is keeping. He's both scary and fascinating at the same time.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

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Post by emmy21 » Nov 13th, '08, 15:06

toyotaku wrote:
Does anyone know what Mizuki told Kanon that has her so upset at the end?
Mizuki told her that she knows all about Kanon's brother, and in exchange for not telling Junya, she wants Kanon to quietly disappear as Junya already has Kiyoka as his "cross" to care for. She said Junya has such a pure and beautiful world, and she doesn't want Kanon's existence to wound it.
nix_renji wrote:
But what the hell does Youji has against Junya? All he does is get her a music box and gave her two jobs. Youji should be thanking Junya for taking care of Kanon :blink
I think it's probably a mix of overprotectiveness and jealously. During the prison visit, when Youji asked about the guy she liked, Kanon suddenly burst out that it was all Yoji's fault that she wasn't successful in love. Youji could have thought that Kanon was hurt by Junya and wanted to teach him a lesson.

But then again, Youji is pretty unpredictable and violent. Maybe it just doesn't take much to set him off now.

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Post by HPriest » Nov 13th, '08, 15:54

I translated a rather pessimistic article about Innocent Love on ww.pori-chan.com
If you follow discussions on 2ch or other Japanese boards, then you should already know it anyway. With the current ratings it's on a very steady course towards becoming the worst getsu9 dorama of all times! (ratings wise, of course)

Whether you care about ratings or not, it's still something to be worried about (for the staff and for the actors).
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Post by quandary » Nov 14th, '08, 01:56

I think the good ratings for the first episode (all I've seen, so far) demonstrate that Maki can draw viewers, but it's going to have to be good to keep them coming back. This doesn't look promising to me, the first episode seemed to take forever to make a few small points. Watching Maki walk around might be pleasing to the eye, but it's not much for drama.

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Post by 303aegiszx » Nov 14th, '08, 03:20

Was this not predictable though? First off, she has to contend with dramas such as Ryuusei no Kizuna which contains the likes of Ryo (who came off of the Last Friends wave) and Toda Erika (who came off the successful medical drama Code Blue).
Not to mention Aya returns to star along Kamiji (which is a surprisingly good drama).
Bloody Monday has one of THE hottest young stars, Mimura and Kichise Michiko.
Kaze no Garden- no comment here, it was his last drama before he died, many are watching out of respect.

I'll agree that she cannot handle such an interesting storyline/plot a lot. Her supporting actress/actors are good but not good enough. At least it's not as bad as ROOM of KING- I watched the first two episodes and was so lost T_T

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Post by evigsinne » Nov 16th, '08, 15:56

There's also that it's just not terribly good. I came into this drama with high hopes because I quite enjoyed Last Friends, but so far I've been disappointed. Horikita Maki's character is completely unlikeable for me; she's such a stalker that I actually don't want her to have any sort of happiness until she realizes just how creepy her behavior is. Every time she walks into Junya's house uninvited and starts touching all his personal belongings I want her to be discovered and kicked out and tossed in jail, but instead she gets rewarded with jobs? What? I watched three episodes, and I have the fourth downloaded but I'm not sure if I'll actually continue. I didn't like Michiru in Last Friends either, but the supporting cast was good enough and the storyline compelling enough that I could overcome that dislike. It's looking like that won't be the case for Innocent Love, though.

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Post by silentblvd » Nov 17th, '08, 03:44

Evigsinne,
you have a point about how Kanon's boundaries (or lack of respect to) are strange and uncomfortable to watch, but I do think she's a sympathetic character, or as sympathetic as the writer can manage. I had such issues with Last Friends, but this is not the thread to go into them - but back to Innocent Love, for me, it's all in the title and the set up.
It is a fairy tale about lonely people - the way that Kanon runs from her identity as 'the killer's sister', changes her appearance, takes on different names to start over - that's all textbook fairytale/hero's journey stuff. She might be suffering from a severe case of PTSD, which explains the random flashbacks/false?real memories, and her reactions to people - once people find out that her brother's crime, they immediately shun her. So Kanon protects herself in the small ways she can - changes her name, moves around - but she doesn't completely lose faith in people. So meeting a character like Junya - whose circumstances are similar to hers - his parents are dead too, but he was taken in by the church, and he grew up loved and supported, I think that Kanon projects her ideals on Junya and is in love with what she sees as genuine kindness and acceptance. Because Junya's always smiling, doesn't seem to be so pressed down by life as she is.

But there's something off about him too - the fairytale of lonely people, again - he's not the prince at the piano that Kanon thinks he is. Because why is Kiyoka recovering in his house? Why isn't she in a hospital or a private home? The house is pretty nice, and Mizuki mentioned he used to do work for CMs, so he's talented enough to earn the money to put her in professional care. So why is she locked away in a room of his house? From Subaru's (admittedly biased) admission of Junya and Kiyoka's past, she was Not a Nice Person. So is Junya suffering survivor's guilt? Does he really love Kiyoka or is he just so used to having her in his life, that he'll keep on nursing her, because he's convinced himself that's what he needs to do - while being completely oblivious to Mizuki and Subaru's attraction to him. Junya is remarkably dense - there's lots more going on behind his cheerful childish smile than what we've seen so far. (And didn't Kiyoka get into this situation because she tried to commit suicide? Hellllo, there.)


Subaru - the least shocking secret is that he appears to be in love with Junya, and he's gone so far as to remove Kiyoka's breathing tube (i think attempted murder slightly trumps breaking and entering and touching people's things, honestly.) And since you've not seen episode 4 (and I think you should), I won't go into further about the fall out of *that* action - but suffice to say, there is a WHOLE LOT OF SCREWED UP going on with these four people, but again, the writer of Last Friends. No one should be surprised.


His story is probably the most retreaded from LF (FORBIDDEN LOVEEEEEE. GAAAAAY ANGST.), so I won't go into it in more detail, but damn, Nari's hair. I love it.

Kiyoka and Mizuki - both important females in Junya's life, one he clings to, the other one desperately wanting him to cling to her - if "One day he'll turn to me" and Mizuki's little self-satisfied smirk, and then her late night confession that she wished that Kiyoka would die - there's an emotional minefield we have yet to delve into. Yet for all of Mizuki's perfect stats for soul-mate choice ala fairytale and kdramas -- did I mention that I think Innocent Love is probably the most k-drama Jdrama I've seen in a while? but yes, Mizuki's his childhood best friend, she's been there through thick and thin, and she knows about Kiyoka --- yet Junya is not projecting sparkle-hearts and flowers at her...


well, you know. There is more to everyone's appearance than what we've seen. The pacing lagged really badly in episodes 1&2, but I think it caught up quite splendidly in episode 3, and I can''t wait how to see the melodrama plays out in episode 5. Because there's a very agape (spiritual and intense love not necessarily based in romance or sexual) love/unrequitedness going on between Kanon and Junya, Yoji's ???? feelings toward Kanon, and the utter mess that is going on between Junya, Kiyoka, Mizuki and Subaru.
I do hope you'll try and continue to watch, but I know a lot of people have 3 episode thresholds and if they can't get into a drama by then, they cut it loose.

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Post by chocoasaurus » Nov 17th, '08, 07:04

silentblvd wrote:Evigsinne,
you have a point about how Kanon's boundaries (or lack of respect to) are strange and uncomfortable to watch, but I do think she's a sympathetic character, or as sympathetic as the writer can manage. I had such issues with Last Friends, but this is not the thread to go into them - but back to Innocent Love, for me, it's all in the title and the set up.
It is a fairy tale about lonely people - the way that Kanon runs from her identity as 'the killer's sister', changes her appearance, takes on different names to start over - that's all textbook fairytale/hero's journey stuff. She might be suffering from a severe case of PTSD, which explains the random flashbacks/false?real memories, and her reactions to people - once people find out that her brother's crime, they immediately shun her. So Kanon protects herself in the small ways she can - changes her name, moves around - but she doesn't completely lose faith in people. So meeting a character like Junya - whose circumstances are similar to hers - his parents are dead too, but he was taken in by the church, and he grew up loved and supported, I think that Kanon projects her ideals on Junya and is in love with what she sees as genuine kindness and acceptance. Because Junya's always smiling, doesn't seem to be so pressed down by life as she is.

But there's something off about him too - the fairytale of lonely people, again - he's not the prince at the piano that Kanon thinks he is. Because why is Kiyoka recovering in his house? Why isn't she in a hospital or a private home? The house is pretty nice, and Mizuki mentioned he used to do work for CMs, so he's talented enough to earn the money to put her in professional care. So why is she locked away in a room of his house? From Subaru's (admittedly biased) admission of Junya and Kiyoka's past, she was Not a Nice Person. So is Junya suffering survivor's guilt? Does he really love Kiyoka or is he just so used to having her in his life, that he'll keep on nursing her, because he's convinced himself that's what he needs to do - while being completely oblivious to Mizuki and Subaru's attraction to him. Junya is remarkably dense - there's lots more going on behind his cheerful childish smile than what we've seen so far. (And didn't Kiyoka get into this situation because she tried to commit suicide? Hellllo, there.)


Subaru - the least shocking secret is that he appears to be in love with Junya, and he's gone so far as to remove Kiyoka's breathing tube (i think attempted murder slightly trumps breaking and entering and touching people's things, honestly.) And since you've not seen episode 4 (and I think you should), I won't go into further about the fall out of *that* action - but suffice to say, there is a WHOLE LOT OF SCREWED UP going on with these four people, but again, the writer of Last Friends. No one should be surprised.


His story is probably the most retreaded from LF (FORBIDDEN LOVEEEEEE. GAAAAAY ANGST.), so I won't go into it in more detail, but damn, Nari's hair. I love it.

Kiyoka and Mizuki - both important females in Junya's life, one he clings to, the other one desperately wanting him to cling to her - if "One day he'll turn to me" and Mizuki's little self-satisfied smirk, and then her late night confession that she wished that Kiyoka would die - there's an emotional minefield we have yet to delve into. Yet for all of Mizuki's perfect stats for soul-mate choice ala fairytale and kdramas -- did I mention that I think Innocent Love is probably the most k-drama Jdrama I've seen in a while? but yes, Mizuki's his childhood best friend, she's been there through thick and thin, and she knows about Kiyoka --- yet Junya is not projecting sparkle-hearts and flowers at her...


well, you know. There is more to everyone's appearance than what we've seen. The pacing lagged really badly in episodes 1&2, but I think it caught up quite splendidly in episode 3, and I can''t wait how to see the melodrama plays out in episode 5. Because there's a very agape (spiritual and intense love not necessarily based in romance or sexual) love/unrequitedness going on between Kanon and Junya, Yoji's ???? feelings toward Kanon, and the utter mess that is going on between Junya, Kiyoka, Mizuki and Subaru.
I do hope you'll try and continue to watch, but I know a lot of people have 3 episode thresholds and if they can't get into a drama by then, they cut it loose.
Nice talk :thumleft: . U observe very well. I have nothing to add.
But a question, why people usually compare IL to LF? (knowing that I'm late in Jdrama).
What is (or are) their common point(s)? I dun think this is the fact of "forbiden love", coz there is it in many other drama. Sorry for this stupid question :mrgreen:

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Post by Salz » Nov 17th, '08, 07:14

chocoasaurus wrote:
silentblvd wrote:Evigsinne,
you have a point about how Kanon's boundaries (or lack of respect to) are strange and uncomfortable to watch, but I do think she's a sympathetic character, or as sympathetic as the writer can manage. I had such issues with Last Friends, but this is not the thread to go into them - but back to Innocent Love, for me, it's all in the title and the set up.
It is a fairy tale about lonely people - the way that Kanon runs from her identity as 'the killer's sister', changes her appearance, takes on different names to start over - that's all textbook fairytale/hero's journey stuff. She might be suffering from a severe case of PTSD, which explains the random flashbacks/false?real memories, and her reactions to people - once people find out that her brother's crime, they immediately shun her. So Kanon protects herself in the small ways she can - changes her name, moves around - but she doesn't completely lose faith in people. So meeting a character like Junya - whose circumstances are similar to hers - his parents are dead too, but he was taken in by the church, and he grew up loved and supported, I think that Kanon projects her ideals on Junya and is in love with what she sees as genuine kindness and acceptance. Because Junya's always smiling, doesn't seem to be so pressed down by life as she is.

But there's something off about him too - the fairytale of lonely people, again - he's not the prince at the piano that Kanon thinks he is. Because why is Kiyoka recovering in his house? Why isn't she in a hospital or a private home? The house is pretty nice, and Mizuki mentioned he used to do work for CMs, so he's talented enough to earn the money to put her in professional care. So why is she locked away in a room of his house? From Subaru's (admittedly biased) admission of Junya and Kiyoka's past, she was Not a Nice Person. So is Junya suffering survivor's guilt? Does he really love Kiyoka or is he just so used to having her in his life, that he'll keep on nursing her, because he's convinced himself that's what he needs to do - while being completely oblivious to Mizuki and Subaru's attraction to him. Junya is remarkably dense - there's lots more going on behind his cheerful childish smile than what we've seen so far. (And didn't Kiyoka get into this situation because she tried to commit suicide? Hellllo, there.)


Subaru - the least shocking secret is that he appears to be in love with Junya, and he's gone so far as to remove Kiyoka's breathing tube (i think attempted murder slightly trumps breaking and entering and touching people's things, honestly.) And since you've not seen episode 4 (and I think you should), I won't go into further about the fall out of *that* action - but suffice to say, there is a WHOLE LOT OF SCREWED UP going on with these four people, but again, the writer of Last Friends. No one should be surprised.


His story is probably the most retreaded from LF (FORBIDDEN LOVEEEEEE. GAAAAAY ANGST.), so I won't go into it in more detail, but damn, Nari's hair. I love it.

Kiyoka and Mizuki - both important females in Junya's life, one he clings to, the other one desperately wanting him to cling to her - if "One day he'll turn to me" and Mizuki's little self-satisfied smirk, and then her late night confession that she wished that Kiyoka would die - there's an emotional minefield we have yet to delve into. Yet for all of Mizuki's perfect stats for soul-mate choice ala fairytale and kdramas -- did I mention that I think Innocent Love is probably the most k-drama Jdrama I've seen in a while? but yes, Mizuki's his childhood best friend, she's been there through thick and thin, and she knows about Kiyoka --- yet Junya is not projecting sparkle-hearts and flowers at her...


well, you know. There is more to everyone's appearance than what we've seen. The pacing lagged really badly in episodes 1&2, but I think it caught up quite splendidly in episode 3, and I can''t wait how to see the melodrama plays out in episode 5. Because there's a very agape (spiritual and intense love not necessarily based in romance or sexual) love/unrequitedness going on between Kanon and Junya, Yoji's ???? feelings toward Kanon, and the utter mess that is going on between Junya, Kiyoka, Mizuki and Subaru.
I do hope you'll try and continue to watch, but I know a lot of people have 3 episode thresholds and if they can't get into a drama by then, they cut it loose.
Nice talk :thumleft: . U observe very well. I have nothing to add.
But a question, why people usually compare IL to LF? (knowing that I'm late in Jdrama).
What is (or are) their common point(s)? I dun think this is the fact of "forbiden love", coz there is it in many other drama. Sorry for this stupid question :mrgreen:
they always compare LF to IL bcoz the drama come from the same scriptwriter and almost the same theme bout forbidden love...

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Post by chocoasaurus » Nov 17th, '08, 07:16

Salz wrote:
chocoasaurus wrote:
silentblvd wrote:Evigsinne,
you have a point about how Kanon's boundaries (or lack of respect to) are strange and uncomfortable to watch, but I do think she's a sympathetic character, or as sympathetic as the writer can manage. I had such issues with Last Friends, but this is not the thread to go into them - but back to Innocent Love, for me, it's all in the title and the set up.
It is a fairy tale about lonely people - the way that Kanon runs from her identity as 'the killer's sister', changes her appearance, takes on different names to start over - that's all textbook fairytale/hero's journey stuff. She might be suffering from a severe case of PTSD, which explains the random flashbacks/false?real memories, and her reactions to people - once people find out that her brother's crime, they immediately shun her. So Kanon protects herself in the small ways she can - changes her name, moves around - but she doesn't completely lose faith in people. So meeting a character like Junya - whose circumstances are similar to hers - his parents are dead too, but he was taken in by the church, and he grew up loved and supported, I think that Kanon projects her ideals on Junya and is in love with what she sees as genuine kindness and acceptance. Because Junya's always smiling, doesn't seem to be so pressed down by life as she is.

But there's something off about him too - the fairytale of lonely people, again - he's not the prince at the piano that Kanon thinks he is. Because why is Kiyoka recovering in his house? Why isn't she in a hospital or a private home? The house is pretty nice, and Mizuki mentioned he used to do work for CMs, so he's talented enough to earn the money to put her in professional care. So why is she locked away in a room of his house? From Subaru's (admittedly biased) admission of Junya and Kiyoka's past, she was Not a Nice Person. So is Junya suffering survivor's guilt? Does he really love Kiyoka or is he just so used to having her in his life, that he'll keep on nursing her, because he's convinced himself that's what he needs to do - while being completely oblivious to Mizuki and Subaru's attraction to him. Junya is remarkably dense - there's lots more going on behind his cheerful childish smile than what we've seen so far. (And didn't Kiyoka get into this situation because she tried to commit suicide? Hellllo, there.)


Subaru - the least shocking secret is that he appears to be in love with Junya, and he's gone so far as to remove Kiyoka's breathing tube (i think attempted murder slightly trumps breaking and entering and touching people's things, honestly.) And since you've not seen episode 4 (and I think you should), I won't go into further about the fall out of *that* action - but suffice to say, there is a WHOLE LOT OF SCREWED UP going on with these four people, but again, the writer of Last Friends. No one should be surprised.


His story is probably the most retreaded from LF (FORBIDDEN LOVEEEEEE. GAAAAAY ANGST.), so I won't go into it in more detail, but damn, Nari's hair. I love it.

Kiyoka and Mizuki - both important females in Junya's life, one he clings to, the other one desperately wanting him to cling to her - if "One day he'll turn to me" and Mizuki's little self-satisfied smirk, and then her late night confession that she wished that Kiyoka would die - there's an emotional minefield we have yet to delve into. Yet for all of Mizuki's perfect stats for soul-mate choice ala fairytale and kdramas -- did I mention that I think Innocent Love is probably the most k-drama Jdrama I've seen in a while? but yes, Mizuki's his childhood best friend, she's been there through thick and thin, and she knows about Kiyoka --- yet Junya is not projecting sparkle-hearts and flowers at her...


well, you know. There is more to everyone's appearance than what we've seen. The pacing lagged really badly in episodes 1&2, but I think it caught up quite splendidly in episode 3, and I can''t wait how to see the melodrama plays out in episode 5. Because there's a very agape (spiritual and intense love not necessarily based in romance or sexual) love/unrequitedness going on between Kanon and Junya, Yoji's ???? feelings toward Kanon, and the utter mess that is going on between Junya, Kiyoka, Mizuki and Subaru.
I do hope you'll try and continue to watch, but I know a lot of people have 3 episode thresholds and if they can't get into a drama by then, they cut it loose.
Nice talk :thumleft: . U observe very well. I have nothing to add.
But a question, why people usually compare IL to LF? (knowing that I'm late in Jdrama).
What is (or are) their common point(s)? I dun think this is the fact of "forbiden love", coz there is it in many other drama. Sorry for this stupid question :mrgreen:
they always compare LF to IL bcoz the drama come from the same scriptwriter and almost the same theme bout forbidden love...
Thank You. :-)

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Post by Lifo » Nov 17th, '08, 08:14

Watched episode 1 with subs & surprisingly I like it. I don't really care much for ratings because IL received low ratings and it's quite catchy while RnK recieved high ones but I don't know what the whole fuss is about.

So definitely watching this.
Last edited by Lifo on Nov 17th, '08, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by freack » Nov 17th, '08, 10:43

Lifo wrote:Watched episode 1 with subs & surprisingly I like it. I don't really care much for ratings because IL received low ratings and it's quite catchy while RnK recieved high ones & I don't know what the whole fuss is about.

So definitely watching this.
Totally agree with you....Ratings dont mean the show is bad or not!!

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Post by Nomanymore » Nov 17th, '08, 13:55

Eps 5, poor Yoji :cry: is he really going to jail, again?.. I still think there's a story behind, Kanon didn't remember whoever was in her room. She just saw Yoji standing there next to their parents bodies.. argh

I really want to know what happened to Kiyoka :blink
it's interesting how it runs on different direction now...

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Post by evigsinne » Nov 17th, '08, 15:26

silentblvd wrote:Evigsinne,
you have a point about how Kanon's boundaries (or lack of respect to) are strange and uncomfortable to watch, but I do think she's a sympathetic character, or as sympathetic as the writer can manage. I had such issues with Last Friends, but this is not the thread to go into them - but back to Innocent Love, for me, it's all in the title and the set up.
It is a fairy tale about lonely people - the way that Kanon runs from her identity as 'the killer's sister', changes her appearance, takes on different names to start over - that's all textbook fairytale/hero's journey stuff. She might be suffering from a severe case of PTSD, which explains the random flashbacks/false?real memories, and her reactions to people - once people find out that her brother's crime, they immediately shun her. So Kanon protects herself in the small ways she can - changes her name, moves around - but she doesn't completely lose faith in people. So meeting a character like Junya - whose circumstances are similar to hers - his parents are dead too, but he was taken in by the church, and he grew up loved and supported, I think that Kanon projects her ideals on Junya and is in love with what she sees as genuine kindness and acceptance. Because Junya's always smiling, doesn't seem to be so pressed down by life as she is.

But there's something off about him too - the fairytale of lonely people, again - he's not the prince at the piano that Kanon thinks he is. Because why is Kiyoka recovering in his house? Why isn't she in a hospital or a private home? The house is pretty nice, and Mizuki mentioned he used to do work for CMs, so he's talented enough to earn the money to put her in professional care. So why is she locked away in a room of his house? From Subaru's (admittedly biased) admission of Junya and Kiyoka's past, she was Not a Nice Person. So is Junya suffering survivor's guilt? Does he really love Kiyoka or is he just so used to having her in his life, that he'll keep on nursing her, because he's convinced himself that's what he needs to do - while being completely oblivious to Mizuki and Subaru's attraction to him. Junya is remarkably dense - there's lots more going on behind his cheerful childish smile than what we've seen so far. (And didn't Kiyoka get into this situation because she tried to commit suicide? Hellllo, there.)


Subaru - the least shocking secret is that he appears to be in love with Junya, and he's gone so far as to remove Kiyoka's breathing tube (i think attempted murder slightly trumps breaking and entering and touching people's things, honestly.) And since you've not seen episode 4 (and I think you should), I won't go into further about the fall out of *that* action - but suffice to say, there is a WHOLE LOT OF SCREWED UP going on with these four people, but again, the writer of Last Friends. No one should be surprised.


His story is probably the most retreaded from LF (FORBIDDEN LOVEEEEEE. GAAAAAY ANGST.), so I won't go into it in more detail, but damn, Nari's hair. I love it.

Kiyoka and Mizuki - both important females in Junya's life, one he clings to, the other one desperately wanting him to cling to her - if "One day he'll turn to me" and Mizuki's little self-satisfied smirk, and then her late night confession that she wished that Kiyoka would die - there's an emotional minefield we have yet to delve into. Yet for all of Mizuki's perfect stats for soul-mate choice ala fairytale and kdramas -- did I mention that I think Innocent Love is probably the most k-drama Jdrama I've seen in a while? but yes, Mizuki's his childhood best friend, she's been there through thick and thin, and she knows about Kiyoka --- yet Junya is not projecting sparkle-hearts and flowers at her...


well, you know. There is more to everyone's appearance than what we've seen. The pacing lagged really badly in episodes 1&2, but I think it caught up quite splendidly in episode 3, and I can''t wait how to see the melodrama plays out in episode 5. Because there's a very agape (spiritual and intense love not necessarily based in romance or sexual) love/unrequitedness going on between Kanon and Junya, Yoji's ???? feelings toward Kanon, and the utter mess that is going on between Junya, Kiyoka, Mizuki and Subaru.
I do hope you'll try and continue to watch, but I know a lot of people have 3 episode thresholds and if they can't get into a drama by then, they cut it loose.
I feel like your interpretation here is what I was hoping the drama would actually be like, but it falls short in execution. Yes, there are Hidden Depths and there is Facade and Emotional Trauma, but it all just feels really flat to me while watching. I don't know if it's the fault of the script or the actors, but I just can't get into this one. The most interesting characters/relationships for me are Junya/Mizuki/Subaru (and of course Kiyoka in the background), but so far they just aren't quite compelling enough. Honestly, I feel that

Subaru's attempted murder is actually more sympathetic than Kanon's stalking; I understand her longing for happiness and her idealization of Junya, but for me that doesn't forgive her utterly creepy behavior. If she REALIZED how creepy she was being it might soften me towards her, but she doesn't seem to even realize that there might be something weird and wrong about going into other peoples' houses unannounced and molesting their personal belongings and peering into their windows all the time - and what's more, the drama seems to expect the AUDIENCE not to realize this. Kanon is being painted as the tragic, innocent heroine, as if there's nothing at all untoward about being a psychotic stalker (and I do think that if this were real life, Kanon would be recognized as having mental problems, beyond her possibly-abusive childhood traumatic memory loss). I'm not saying that what Subaru did was justified or right, but (my own personal feelings regarding what constitutes death might be coming into play here) Kiyoka has been in a coma for three years, right? Following a suicide attempt, no less. At some point you just have to let go. Subaru was probably acting solely in self-interest, but one could argue that finally losing Kiyoka forever would be the best thing for Junya in the long run.

I will probably give episode 4 a shot, but it'll be a pretty long shot.

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Post by evigsinne » Nov 17th, '08, 15:28

silentblvd wrote:Evigsinne,
you have a point about how Kanon's boundaries (or lack of respect to) are strange and uncomfortable to watch, but I do think she's a sympathetic character, or as sympathetic as the writer can manage. I had such issues with Last Friends, but this is not the thread to go into them - but back to Innocent Love, for me, it's all in the title and the set up.
It is a fairy tale about lonely people - the way that Kanon runs from her identity as 'the killer's sister', changes her appearance, takes on different names to start over - that's all textbook fairytale/hero's journey stuff. She might be suffering from a severe case of PTSD, which explains the random flashbacks/false?real memories, and her reactions to people - once people find out that her brother's crime, they immediately shun her. So Kanon protects herself in the small ways she can - changes her name, moves around - but she doesn't completely lose faith in people. So meeting a character like Junya - whose circumstances are similar to hers - his parents are dead too, but he was taken in by the church, and he grew up loved and supported, I think that Kanon projects her ideals on Junya and is in love with what she sees as genuine kindness and acceptance. Because Junya's always smiling, doesn't seem to be so pressed down by life as she is.

But there's something off about him too - the fairytale of lonely people, again - he's not the prince at the piano that Kanon thinks he is. Because why is Kiyoka recovering in his house? Why isn't she in a hospital or a private home? The house is pretty nice, and Mizuki mentioned he used to do work for CMs, so he's talented enough to earn the money to put her in professional care. So why is she locked away in a room of his house? From Subaru's (admittedly biased) admission of Junya and Kiyoka's past, she was Not a Nice Person. So is Junya suffering survivor's guilt? Does he really love Kiyoka or is he just so used to having her in his life, that he'll keep on nursing her, because he's convinced himself that's what he needs to do - while being completely oblivious to Mizuki and Subaru's attraction to him. Junya is remarkably dense - there's lots more going on behind his cheerful childish smile than what we've seen so far. (And didn't Kiyoka get into this situation because she tried to commit suicide? Hellllo, there.)


Subaru - the least shocking secret is that he appears to be in love with Junya, and he's gone so far as to remove Kiyoka's breathing tube (i think attempted murder slightly trumps breaking and entering and touching people's things, honestly.) And since you've not seen episode 4 (and I think you should), I won't go into further about the fall out of *that* action - but suffice to say, there is a WHOLE LOT OF SCREWED UP going on with these four people, but again, the writer of Last Friends. No one should be surprised.


His story is probably the most retreaded from LF (FORBIDDEN LOVEEEEEE. GAAAAAY ANGST.), so I won't go into it in more detail, but damn, Nari's hair. I love it.

Kiyoka and Mizuki - both important females in Junya's life, one he clings to, the other one desperately wanting him to cling to her - if "One day he'll turn to me" and Mizuki's little self-satisfied smirk, and then her late night confession that she wished that Kiyoka would die - there's an emotional minefield we have yet to delve into. Yet for all of Mizuki's perfect stats for soul-mate choice ala fairytale and kdramas -- did I mention that I think Innocent Love is probably the most k-drama Jdrama I've seen in a while? but yes, Mizuki's his childhood best friend, she's been there through thick and thin, and she knows about Kiyoka --- yet Junya is not projecting sparkle-hearts and flowers at her...


well, you know. There is more to everyone's appearance than what we've seen. The pacing lagged really badly in episodes 1&2, but I think it caught up quite splendidly in episode 3, and I can''t wait how to see the melodrama plays out in episode 5. Because there's a very agape (spiritual and intense love not necessarily based in romance or sexual) love/unrequitedness going on between Kanon and Junya, Yoji's ???? feelings toward Kanon, and the utter mess that is going on between Junya, Kiyoka, Mizuki and Subaru.
I do hope you'll try and continue to watch, but I know a lot of people have 3 episode thresholds and if they can't get into a drama by then, they cut it loose.
I feel like your interpretation here is what I was hoping the drama would actually be like, but it falls short in execution. Yes, there are Hidden Depths and there is Facade and Emotional Trauma, but it all just feels really flat to me while watching. I don't know if it's the fault of the script or the actors, but I just can't get into this one. The most interesting characters/relationships for me are Junya/Mizuki/Subaru (and of course Kiyoka in the background), but so far they just aren't quite compelling enough. Honestly, I feel that

Subaru's attempted murder is actually more sympathetic than Kanon's stalking; I understand her longing for happiness and her idealization of Junya, but for me that doesn't forgive her utterly creepy behavior. If she REALIZED how creepy she was being it might soften me towards her, but she doesn't seem to even realize that there might be something weird and wrong about going into other peoples' houses unannounced and molesting their personal belongings and peering into their windows all the time - and what's more, the drama seems to expect the AUDIENCE not to realize this. Kanon is being painted as the tragic, innocent heroine, as if there's nothing at all untoward about being a psychotic stalker (and I do think that if this were real life, Kanon would be recognized as having mental problems, beyond her possibly-abusive childhood traumatic memory loss). I'm not saying that what Subaru did was justified or right, but (my own personal feelings regarding what constitutes death might be coming into play here) Kiyoka has been in a coma for three years, right? Following a suicide attempt, no less. At some point you just have to let go. Subaru was probably acting solely in self-interest, but one could argue that finally losing Kiyoka forever would be the best thing for Junya in the long run.

I will probably give episode 4 a shot, but it'll be a pretty long shot.

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Post by evolute8 » Nov 17th, '08, 19:56

Anyone knows the title of the japanese christmas/christian song played in episode 1 ?

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Post by charia-chan » Nov 17th, '08, 20:36

The song Junya sings with the kids?
It came up before in this thread I think.^^

The English title is: What a friend we have in Jesus
Japanese: Itsukushimi Fukaki

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Post by evolute8 » Nov 17th, '08, 20:45

charia-chan wrote:The song Junya sings with the kids?
It came up before in this thread I think.^^

The English title is: What a friend we have in Jesus
Japanese: Itsukushimi Fukaki
thanks alot !

I found the japanese title of it on youtube as well..慈しみ深き

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Post by chocoasaurus » Nov 17th, '08, 20:52

evolute8 wrote:Anyone knows the title of the japanese christmas/christian song played in episode 1 ?
Why dun U go here for more details?
http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_33690_6765.htm
:mrgreen: M.O.A.T.A.M.4 :mrgreen:
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Post by silentblvd » Nov 18th, '08, 02:45

8) evigsinne, as you said, it is just my interpretation of IL - and I'm not a native Japanese speaker, so I can only understand maybe a little phrase here and there - so I'm sure I'm missing things in context, and who knows, when the Querbeet subs arrive, maybe I'll change my mind about Kanon and her motivations.

We can agree to disagree on this though - regarding Subaru's actions in episode 3
See, him removing Kiyoka's breathing tube trumped Kanon's strange social graces in the WTF factor for me because even if Junya was conflicted about his true feelings about Kiyoka, ultimately, he wants to keep her alive, and treats her as if she was still fully connected to the world. Subaru taking away Junya's choice through misguided if well-intentioned actions is pretty presumptuous of him, and if Junya hadn't caught him in the act, who knows what would have happened - Subaru could have pinned it on Kanon, because she has the reputation of a stalker (but one he chose to go after and tell all about his best friend's past), adding false accusation to the attempted mercy killing.

Now on to episode five! yay!

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Post by silentblvd » Nov 18th, '08, 03:37

......


I NEED EPISODE SIX NOW.

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Post by tavon1 » Nov 18th, '08, 03:44

On the official site there is an hidden link to the other side of Innocent Love

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Post by josean06 » Nov 18th, '08, 04:40

Here's my two cents on the first 5 episodes

goodness gracious! You know I was really really hesitant to watch this drama, as the picture promoting it seemed a little.... odd for the title. It seems that all this drama is really revolving around is Junya. It's crazy, a million people love him, and a million people want to kill him (well just the brother of Kanon, Yoji). But this is almost like Last Friends, except the happy and the comforting in between. It's all just crazy drama, and unlike Last Friends, anyone could die. LoL I mean almost anyone. Yoji could kill everyone if he wanted to...

Oh one question:
Why did Yoji get released, I'm not that far in Japanese classes, but that's the only thing I didn't get. Oh and why Kiyoka is in her state (unless it hasn't been mentioned yet)

But I dunno, it seems that someone's going to die. I don't want anyone to die. The only one who deserves to die I think is Yoji, he's scary... LoL in Nodame, not really. But since I can't really translate much, just get the jist of everything. I think it's one of the other forbidden loves (kyodai ai = sibling love) which is kinda weird...... especially since they're blood related...

OH well we'll see the ending in next few weeks, and we'll see that it ends with Yoji dying (just like when Ryo died in Last Friends :-( ), I think that there aren't that many ratings because it's almost just like Last Friends, just with a different story, but the characters are all there, which is weird...(or their personalities) lots of characters are combined, and some are split. It's scary when you've seen Last Friends, it's kinda like nostalgic to see the characters come to life, and you're like, "that's just like Takeru! (lol the kyodai ai with his sister)"

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Post by zhenxi » Nov 18th, '08, 05:32

tavon1 wrote:On the official site there is an hidden link to the other side of Innocent Love
Just click on the black piano (with the wordings "no copy" under it) at the lower left hand side and a piano keyboard will appear. Play the tune of "What a friend we have in Jesus" and "Ta-da", the keyboard will disappear and a new section will come up.

http://wwwz.fujitv.co.jp/innocentlove/index.html
Alternatively, if you don't feel like playing around with the piano, click here and Welcome to The Other Side of "Innocent Love"
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Post by HPriest » Nov 18th, '08, 11:07

Episode 5 has 11.7% just like the 4th.
Forgot to write it last night.
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Post by evigsinne » Nov 18th, '08, 16:33

silentblvd wrote:8) evigsinne, as you said, it is just my interpretation of IL - and I'm not a native Japanese speaker, so I can only understand maybe a little phrase here and there - so I'm sure I'm missing things in context, and who knows, when the Querbeet subs arrive, maybe I'll change my mind about Kanon and her motivations.

We can agree to disagree on this though - regarding Subaru's actions in episode 3
See, him removing Kiyoka's breathing tube trumped Kanon's strange social graces in the WTF factor for me because even if Junya was conflicted about his true feelings about Kiyoka, ultimately, he wants to keep her alive, and treats her as if she was still fully connected to the world. Subaru taking away Junya's choice through misguided if well-intentioned actions is pretty presumptuous of him, and if Junya hadn't caught him in the act, who knows what would have happened - Subaru could have pinned it on Kanon, because she has the reputation of a stalker (but one he chose to go after and tell all about his best friend's past), adding false accusation to the attempted mercy killing.
I just have to correct you on one thing here -
When Junya came in after Subaru had thrown Kanon to the floor to stop her from trying to save Kiyoka, he didn't realize that Subaru had done it - he was about to run after Kanon and Subaru could easily have let him and blamed it on her, but he didn't. Subaru actually says to Junya "don't go after her; it was me that did it." I was kind of pissed at him for doing that because I wanted Kanon to finally get some sort of comeuppance for her intrusions (yes, I dislike her to the point that I wanted her to take the fall for attempted "murder"). I initially was disappointed in Subaru for doing something like that, but the fact that he was honest about it and believes he's acting in Junya's best interests (even though there's obviously self-interest factoring in as well) raises him in my opinion.
I can respect your opinion on the matter, but I just wanted to clear up that little detail!

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Post by miznagase » Nov 18th, '08, 17:54

episode 5:
omg! this episode pissed me off! it's good to know that ikeda is still alive and well, but the fact that kanon STILL can't remember what happened that night is soooooo frustrating and getting on my nerves!!! :x
it's obvious that she was sexually molested by someone (either by her brother, yoji, or her dad).
i have a feeling that the doctor knows exactly what happened to her, but he's not willing to tell ikeda for some reason :glare:
yoji "admitted" that he killed their parents, but i don't think he really killed them. i think kanon is the real murderer.
the fact that yoji went back to jail just proves how much he wants to cover up for kanon, which is pissing me off as well :roll
and what's up with kanon's heavy breathing when she's remembering all those things? it's perverted :P
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Post by josean06 » Nov 19th, '08, 05:21

It's almost a fact that Yoji sexually abused Kanon. As we can tell by his extreme jealousy against any man that has any contact with Kanon. Although Yoji does have somewhat of a soft side, stopping himself once he saw Kiyoka's face. He really is a total sadist, it's really scary.

I think the big difference between Last Friends and Innocent Love is that, Innocent Love is different story, not portraying any actual facts or social difficulties of people as Last Friends did. Many of the characters are embedded however in the story. Which goes to show that some recycled personalities are used.

Kanon=Michiru/Takeru - Kanon takes Michiru's personality of gentleness and is almost a saint to whatever happens to her, she never stands up for herself, which could be her downfall. The Takeru side is only the sibling sexual tension between Kanon and Yoji, but it is more of a story in here than Last Friends. It's almost as if Yoji's character is built upon him abusing Kanon as a child. Unfortunately, for Kanon, thinking about the past hurts her. Which shows PTSD, hope that her knowing that Yoji did kill her parents, will keep him in prison.

Yoji=Sousuke - Almost everything checks in with Yoji and Sousuke, with their jealousies. However Sousuke is somewhat gentle at heart, yet he can be easily angered. Yoji is willing to do anything to get Kanon for himself. They are both selfish, and have an killer instinct. It seems that Yoji is trying to hide the fact that he sexually abused Kanon, but she's starting to remember.

Subaru=Ruka - Of course we know this, that their have the same situation. They are in love with their best friends. But Subaru has something different with him. They have totally different personalities, one's more strong willed and will do anything for the people she loves and stands up to what she believes. We don't know much about Subaru yet, but he wants to anything for Junya, even as far as trying to kill Kiyoka.

New Characters, but has the essence of Last Friends

Mizuki=Ryo - Only in the sense that she has a jealous side. But it might go farther, and might endanger Kanon's life.

Junya- I couldn't find any character like him, but he's a gentle character, a person who doesn't deserve any sadness really. But it seems that the story of love revolves around him. He's got a lover, and three people love him, and one wants to kill him.

That's my analysis on Last Friends and Innocent Love
Although we're only in the 5th episode. We learned a lot about the characters. It seems that everything's going to unfold in the following episodes. But this drama is way to squished. I'm glad that it seems that Yoji's turning himself in, I'm just hoping he really does, since it doesn't show him do it. *Episode 6* it seems that we'll learn more about Kiyoka's past, but I dunno, does anyone think that she's going to die? If she does, without her and Yoji, the drama's pretty boring with just a love square. We'll just see what happens. It's amazing how the Japanese fit this much in only 11 45 minute episodes. Tooooo much suspense for me really. But I really want to see how it ends. Last Friends ended fine. Hopefully this one will too.

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Post by emmy21 » Nov 19th, '08, 13:22

my thoughts on episode 5....

I think I have to agree with josean that it's looking like Yoji molested Kanon when young. Kanon seemed to be looking directly at Yoji in the photograph when she had her panic attacks. Yoji could have killed the parents in a sudden rage becos of a quarrel. If the scene with Yoji holding the bloody knife spontaneously flashed back in Kanon's mind when she saw the blood stains on Yoji's t-shirt, I don't think it can be feigned. It sure seems possible given Yoji's rather extreme tendencies (like taking the drill to his colleague's head)

Perhaps we are all trying to be quite open minded abt Yoji. I want to think he's innocent and that his violent streak could be due to the bitterness and tough life in jail. Similar to Last Friends with Sousuke and how I hoped he would come to his senses and stop the violence. In the end, he did sort of redeem himself, but still couldn't help his violent, jealous and possessive nature from hurting Michiru.

For Yoji, perhaps he is also battling with his inner demons. He's trying to redeem himself and be the image of this innocent loving brother that Kanon has while he was in prison. However, he can't help his jealousy and feelings towards his own sister?

Anyway, I can't wait for the next ep! I think those scenes of Kiyoka with Subaru are just flashbacks? Perhaps we'll be able to see more of Kiyoka's supposed cold personality and why she tried to commit suicide. It looked like she flatlined at the end of ep 5, but from the trailer Junya managed to rush her to hospital in time, altho she's still in a coma? But based on Kanon's conversation, seems like Junya is ready to move on and let Kiyoka go?
Would love to hear everyone's comments too! :)

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Post by kawaiimomo » Nov 19th, '08, 20:51

i don't really think Yoji molested Kanon (but then again maybe i'm just biased sine I love Yoji too much) I think it was her dad who molested her. Plus I not completely sure Yoji is even in love Kanon. I think he has a sister complex cause if he was in love with her wouldn't he have been really happy when she said she always wants them to be together and when she held his hand in ep 4? his reaction was more brotherly than some guy who was in love with his sister.
anyways someone softsubbed ep 4 in crunchyroll and according to their translation
Apparently Yoji is a foster child and Kanon's parents are his foster parents? does anyone know if these translations are right? btw does anyone know why Yoji was a stay at home child? was he sick or something?

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Post by vaberella » Nov 20th, '08, 08:13

Well I'm new on this thread and just recently saw ep.1. I plan on being crtical of a lot of things, although I will say this, I am not coming off any wave of Last Friends (as has been discussed a lot on this thread) since I haven't seen it. Plus, I don't plan too any time soon. Secondly, I found this show tolerable.

I notice several things on this thread however, lots of Horikita Maki lovers and people questioning the ratings. I'm actually not surprised by the ratings (in respect of being poor). The show is a bit confusing and boring in the first ep. The only reason I was caught up in it myself is because I love and adore all things Narimiya Hiroki.
The first thing that upsets me about the show. Horikita Maki is truly one of the most awful actresses I've seen. I have seen quite a bit of of her shows, mainly because I'm a fan of the male lead or secondary lead. She's just a bad actress. I realize many here think she's great and whatever...but I'm really surprised by her success. Especially in comparison to some of the new japanese actresses coming up like Aoi Yu or even the great skill of Ishihara Satomi , she's really weak and that in of itself makes the show hard to watch.

Of course it's not just limited to her acting, another thing is of course the acting of Kitagawa Yujin, that is if you call that acting. There is no chemistry between them on screen to even see some type of love and both their lackluster performances are adding to the entire problem of the story.

The story itself doesn't seem bad, since a great drama has tons of twists and turns and fake outs and hidden truths; that's just the norm. However, the initial beginning, added to the really weird personality of Maki's character is not someone other people find endearing. I think a lot of the time, no matter the content of the story, if a watcher can in some way identify with a character they would watch it to the end, at least on some level.

However, as I've seen, and let's look beyond the bad acting (excluding Hiroki); the characters are unrealistic and really annoying or just too strange to get close too. You have Maki's character, a girl who is shunned in life and society and has her brother in prison and could possibly have been abused or killed someone. Added to that she has the nasty little obsessive quirk in her. From her picture taking of people smiling to fulfill some disturbing need, to her freakish and sudden attachment to Yujin's character. It was sudden and abrupt. The first male (possibly person) to really show her some kindness she decides is the man she's interested in...Disturbing on so many levels. There was no development to this, you would think she would be fearful of exposing herself and his ideas on her past, but she sort of thrusts herself headlong into his life.

Then you have Hiroki's character, keep in mind I love this actor and of course his performance if fine, but can't hold up the entire cast. He's disturbing and a bit twisted. One basically can estimate he's in love with his Yujin's character and goes as far as to "kill" sleeping beauty. Pretty disturbing guy.

Yujin's character. No joke this guy is made extra weird only by Yujin's acting. I'm actually not weirded out or disturbed by his fiance/girlfriend in the house under his care. I have read some posts where people wonder about that. It doesn't bug me, for several reasons. There are a lot of people with money who would prefer to have their family at home with them so they could take care of them in the familiarity of what is "home" and many doctors believe that is actually good for patients in advancing recovery. Other reasons is, he has the money and the time and he's devoted to her so he wants to nurse her back to health considering she's a catatonic state where vigilancy in her maintenance doesn't seem warranted. So really it's Yujin's characature of the character that irks the hell out of me. This man is way too extreme, his smiles are way to bright and silly and just not necessary or uncalled for in the scnes. Not to mention he's very stilted in his delivery and it's frustrating to watch. The character doesn't seem very innocent to me, but someone who wants to change his life to something simpler. I get the feeling he enjoyed the fast and high life and quite possibly he could have been responsible for "sleeping beauty's" current state----which would be another reason why he's so devoted to her and wants her at his house...think of it as a personal helll; purgatory to the extreme and seeking repentence.

Seiji's character, actually he's a good actor...he's decent. He's just way way way too mysterious for his own good and things are way too convenient in his situation which makes things always unbelievable and feel OTT.

Yu's character, surprisingly I find this woman's face amazingly beautiful. If I was an artist she would be my inspiration. But on to her character. Nothing really substantial on her, but still not someone you get attached too. From the first ep you see her in the same ilk almost as Subaru. That being said, she's yet again an unidentifiable character.
The characters have absolutely ZERO realism to them. Even if one would call this fantasy, I find it utterly draining as a fantasy because no one would sit there and think of this story as a fantasy. It's too boring and disturbing on so many levels. I can honestly say the ratings the show is currently getting is surprising because I find them even too high. We're surrounded by filler, weak, disturbed, or disturbing characters, weird plot twists and turns, and two leads who can't act their way out of a paper bag and finally no chemistry between the leads . I dunno, I'm surprised people thought it would be higher.

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zhenxi
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Post by zhenxi » Nov 20th, '08, 08:59

vaberella wrote:Well I'm new on this thread and just recently saw ep.1. I plan on being crtical of a lot of things, although I will say this, I am not coming off any wave of Last Friends (as has been discussed a lot on this thread) since I haven't seen it. Plus, I don't plan too any time soon. Secondly, I found this show tolerable.

I notice several things on this thread however, lots of Horikita Maki lovers and people questioning the ratings. I'm actually not surprised by the ratings (in respect of being poor). The show is a bit confusing and boring in the first ep. The only reason I was caught up in it myself is because I love and adore all things Narimiya Hiroki.
The first thing that upsets me about the show. Horikita Maki is truly one of the most awful actresses I've seen. I have seen quite a bit of of her shows, mainly because I'm a fan of the male lead or secondary lead. She's just a bad actress. I realize many here think she's great and whatever...but I'm really surprised by her success. Especially in comparison to some of the new japanese actresses coming up like Aoi Yu or even the great skill of Ishihara Satomi , she's really weak and that in of itself makes the show hard to watch.

Of course it's not just limited to her acting, another thing is of course the acting of Kitagawa Yujin, that is if you call that acting. There is no chemistry between them on screen to even see some type of love and both their lackluster performances are adding to the entire problem of the story.

The story itself doesn't seem bad, since a great drama has tons of twists and turns and fake outs and hidden truths; that's just the norm. However, the initial beginning, added to the really weird personality of Maki's character is not someone other people find endearing. I think a lot of the time, no matter the content of the story, if a watcher can in some way identify with a character they would watch it to the end, at least on some level.

However, as I've seen, and let's look beyond the bad acting (excluding Hiroki); the characters are unrealistic and really annoying or just too strange to get close too. You have Maki's character, a girl who is shunned in life and society and has her brother in prison and could possibly have been abused or killed someone. Added to that she has the nasty little obsessive quirk in her. From her picture taking of people smiling to fulfill some disturbing need, to her freakish and sudden attachment to Yujin's character. It was sudden and abrupt. The first male (possibly person) to really show her some kindness she decides is the man she's interested in...Disturbing on so many levels. There was no development to this, you would think she would be fearful of exposing herself and his ideas on her past, but she sort of thrusts herself headlong into his life.

Then you have Hiroki's character, keep in mind I love this actor and of course his performance if fine, but can't hold up the entire cast. He's disturbing and a bit twisted. One basically can estimate he's in love with his Yujin's character and goes as far as to "kill" sleeping beauty. Pretty disturbing guy.

Yujin's character. No joke this guy is made extra weird only by Yujin's acting. I'm actually not weirded out or disturbed by his fiance/girlfriend in the house under his care. I have read some posts where people wonder about that. It doesn't bug me, for several reasons. There are a lot of people with money who would prefer to have their family at home with them so they could take care of them in the familiarity of what is "home" and many doctors believe that is actually good for patients in advancing recovery. Other reasons is, he has the money and the time and he's devoted to her so he wants to nurse her back to health considering she's a catatonic state where vigilancy in her maintenance doesn't seem warranted. So really it's Yujin's characature of the character that irks the hell out of me. This man is way too extreme, his smiles are way to bright and silly and just not necessary or uncalled for in the scnes. Not to mention he's very stilted in his delivery and it's frustrating to watch. The character doesn't seem very innocent to me, but someone who wants to change his life to something simpler. I get the feeling he enjoyed the fast and high life and quite possibly he could have been responsible for "sleeping beauty's" current state----which would be another reason why he's so devoted to her and wants her at his house...think of it as a personal helll; purgatory to the extreme and seeking repentence.

Seiji's character, actually he's a good actor...he's decent. He's just way way way too mysterious for his own good and things are way too convenient in his situation which makes things always unbelievable and feel OTT.

Yu's character, surprisingly I find this woman's face amazingly beautiful. If I was an artist she would be my inspiration. But on to her character. Nothing really substantial on her, but still not someone you get attached too. From the first ep you see her in the same ilk almost as Subaru. That being said, she's yet again an unidentifiable character.
The characters have absolutely ZERO realism to them. Even if one would call this fantasy, I find it utterly draining as a fantasy because no one would sit there and think of this story as a fantasy. It's too boring and disturbing on so many levels. I can honestly say the ratings the show is currently getting is surprising because I find them even too high. We're surrounded by filler, weak, disturbed, or disturbing characters, weird plot twists and turns, and two leads who can't act their way out of a paper bag and finally no chemistry between the leads . I dunno, I'm surprised people thought it would be higher.
The only reason I was caught up in it myself is because I love and adore all things Narimiya Hiroki.
The same reason why I caught up is because I love and adore Horikita Maki.
The first thing that upsets me about the show. Horikita Maki is truly one of the most awful actresses I've seen. I have seen quite a bit of of her shows, mainly because I'm a fan of the male lead or secondary lead. She's just a bad actress. I realize many here think she's great and whatever...but I'm really surprised by her success. Especially in comparison to some of the new japanese actresses coming up like Aoi Yu or even the great skill of Ishihara Satomi , she's really weak and that in of itself makes the show hard to watch.
You seems to be in agony, why not you stop watching this drama? Since Horikita Maki is the most aweful actresses you've seen and she is the main lead and of course you will expect to see her most of the time.

And I didn't know that a bad actress can achieve this.
Recognitions
54th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Actress for Hanazakari no Kimitachi e
49th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Supporting Actress for Kurosagi
29th Japan Academy Awards: Best Newcomer for Always -Sunset on Third Street
47th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Supporting Actress for Nobuta wo Produce.

Hmm..

Trust me, stop watching this show and save 45 mins every week of your time.

But I will keep watching.
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charia-chan
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Post by charia-chan » Nov 20th, '08, 09:22

@kawaiimomo:

I translated ep 4 as well and don't know anything about that, don't think anything like this was indicated.
(maybe my translation is wrong, but I worked hard on it....)

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Post by Goodnessgracious » Nov 20th, '08, 09:27

zhenxi wrote: Hmm..

Trust me, stop watching this show and save 45 mins every week of your time.

But I will keep watching.
That's rude, varebella was just sharing her opinion about the drama. And I ( and probably many others) actually found her post very interesting. Telling someone to stop watching the drama just because you can't handle any criticism towards your favourite actress is a very immature.thing to do :glare:

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Post by atskv9 » Nov 20th, '08, 09:58

Gonna have to agree with Goodnessgracious :whistling:
If people don't know by now, they should... the Television Drama Academy Awards are a joke and should be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes they are totally on and sometimes you ask yourself what the heck they were thinking. Sorry to get off topic with that but trying to back up Maki's acting with those achievements isn't enough. Obviously it's up to the viewer to decide how well each actor does in a variety of dramas/movies.

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Post by Rori » Nov 20th, '08, 12:19

Have to say I'm agreeing with vaberella too. I'm not saying anything on Maki, I've never liked her so anything I say will most likely be my own bias. But the story is utterly unrealistic, it's silly. I have to admit the twists and all are good to watch but it's too confusing, and yes, it's too boring a lot of the time. Now, Nari was the reason I started watching this drama (well one of them) but he's not the reason I'm continuing to watch it, I just want to see how it all ends. (I watched about 10 minutes of episode 5 and that's because I skipped through the other half an hour)

As for the acting of the others, the lead male is a newbie, and while he does have some cringe-worthy scenes, he's alright. Yuu, who was TERRIBLE in Yukan Club is actually doing a decent job here. Nari has always been a great actor for me. I honestly don't pay attention to any other characters much.
ava: juneylovely/genieforyou-lj

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Post by Lakay » Nov 20th, '08, 12:34

Some observations:
My take on what happened:

When Ikeda and Kanon just came from the doctor, Ikeda correctly surmised that the happy Christmas Eve Kanon keeps remembering actually happened a year earlier than the night her parents were killed:
Ikeda: 12歳っていうと 事件の 1年前だよな。
Roughly, "If you were 12 as you said, then that's 1 year before the incident."

Ikeda further asked Kanon
何で 事件の年じゃなく その前の年のこと 思い出すんだ?
something like, "Why do you remember (what happened) the year before ('s Christmas
Eve) but not what happened that year ('s Christmas Eve)?"
そのころは まだ 幸せだったってことか?
"Coud it be because you were still happy until that time?"

My translations are not very good but I am quite sure regarding that "1 year early" :)

So it can be assumed that Kanon have been molested for 1 year beginning from that Christmas. The sweater her father was wearing that night was light brown, the same color of the one who entered Kanon's room. So I think the molester was the father

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2 Most compelling scenes in Episode 5 for me...

Post by Lakay » Nov 20th, '08, 13:37

there were no words actually spoken in both instances and both involved Yoji...
First scene is right after Yoji confessed that he was the one who killed their parents.

The eye contact (with Maki) and facial expression of Fukushi expressed a lot of feelings.
It's as if Yoji's eyes were saying to Kanon, "I only did what I did to shield you from harm, do you realize that my dear little sister?" Seeing in her eyes that she doesn't have any clue, his expression changed and he ran away.


The second scene is right before Yoji went to the police station.

He had second thoughts surrendering. But when he looked at the rosary, he realized he had to make a sacrifice in order not to cause further harm to his sister - and that is to prevent her from remembering the molestation. I am predicting Yoji will have a talk with Ikeda to stop his "investigation" and/or not to cause Kanon to remember any further.

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Post by vaberella » Nov 20th, '08, 13:41

zhenxi wrote:
vaberella wrote:Well I'm new on this thread and just recently saw ep.1. I plan on being crtical of a lot of things, although I will say this, I am not coming off any wave of Last Friends (as has been discussed a lot on this thread) since I haven't seen it. Plus, I don't plan too any time soon. Secondly, I found this show tolerable.

I notice several things on this thread however, lots of Horikita Maki lovers and people questioning the ratings. I'm actually not surprised by the ratings (in respect of being poor). The show is a bit confusing and boring in the first ep. The only reason I was caught up in it myself is because I love and adore all things Narimiya Hiroki.
The first thing that upsets me about the show. Horikita Maki is truly one of the most awful actresses I've seen. I have seen quite a bit of of her shows, mainly because I'm a fan of the male lead or secondary lead. She's just a bad actress. I realize many here think she's great and whatever...but I'm really surprised by her success. Especially in comparison to some of the new japanese actresses coming up like Aoi Yu or even the great skill of Ishihara Satomi , she's really weak and that in of itself makes the show hard to watch.

Of course it's not just limited to her acting, another thing is of course the acting of Kitagawa Yujin, that is if you call that acting. There is no chemistry between them on screen to even see some type of love and both their lackluster performances are adding to the entire problem of the story.

The story itself doesn't seem bad, since a great drama has tons of twists and turns and fake outs and hidden truths; that's just the norm. However, the initial beginning, added to the really weird personality of Maki's character is not someone other people find endearing. I think a lot of the time, no matter the content of the story, if a watcher can in some way identify with a character they would watch it to the end, at least on some level.

However, as I've seen, and let's look beyond the bad acting (excluding Hiroki); the characters are unrealistic and really annoying or just too strange to get close too. You have Maki's character, a girl who is shunned in life and society and has her brother in prison and could possibly have been abused or killed someone. Added to that she has the nasty little obsessive quirk in her. From her picture taking of people smiling to fulfill some disturbing need, to her freakish and sudden attachment to Yujin's character. It was sudden and abrupt. The first male (possibly person) to really show her some kindness she decides is the man she's interested in...Disturbing on so many levels. There was no development to this, you would think she would be fearful of exposing herself and his ideas on her past, but she sort of thrusts herself headlong into his life.

Then you have Hiroki's character, keep in mind I love this actor and of course his performance if fine, but can't hold up the entire cast. He's disturbing and a bit twisted. One basically can estimate he's in love with his Yujin's character and goes as far as to "kill" sleeping beauty. Pretty disturbing guy.

Yujin's character. No joke this guy is made extra weird only by Yujin's acting. I'm actually not weirded out or disturbed by his fiance/girlfriend in the house under his care. I have read some posts where people wonder about that. It doesn't bug me, for several reasons. There are a lot of people with money who would prefer to have their family at home with them so they could take care of them in the familiarity of what is "home" and many doctors believe that is actually good for patients in advancing recovery. Other reasons is, he has the money and the time and he's devoted to her so he wants to nurse her back to health considering she's a catatonic state where vigilancy in her maintenance doesn't seem warranted. So really it's Yujin's characature of the character that irks the hell out of me. This man is way too extreme, his smiles are way to bright and silly and just not necessary or uncalled for in the scnes. Not to mention he's very stilted in his delivery and it's frustrating to watch. The character doesn't seem very innocent to me, but someone who wants to change his life to something simpler. I get the feeling he enjoyed the fast and high life and quite possibly he could have been responsible for "sleeping beauty's" current state----which would be another reason why he's so devoted to her and wants her at his house...think of it as a personal helll; purgatory to the extreme and seeking repentence.

Seiji's character, actually he's a good actor...he's decent. He's just way way way too mysterious for his own good and things are way too convenient in his situation which makes things always unbelievable and feel OTT.

Yu's character, surprisingly I find this woman's face amazingly beautiful. If I was an artist she would be my inspiration. But on to her character. Nothing really substantial on her, but still not someone you get attached too. From the first ep you see her in the same ilk almost as Subaru. That being said, she's yet again an unidentifiable character.
The characters have absolutely ZERO realism to them. Even if one would call this fantasy, I find it utterly draining as a fantasy because no one would sit there and think of this story as a fantasy. It's too boring and disturbing on so many levels. I can honestly say the ratings the show is currently getting is surprising because I find them even too high. We're surrounded by filler, weak, disturbed, or disturbing characters, weird plot twists and turns, and two leads who can't act their way out of a paper bag and finally no chemistry between the leads . I dunno, I'm surprised people thought it would be higher.
The only reason I was caught up in it myself is because I love and adore all things Narimiya Hiroki.
The same reason why I caught up is because I love and adore Horikita Maki.
The first thing that upsets me about the show. Horikita Maki is truly one of the most awful actresses I've seen. I have seen quite a bit of of her shows, mainly because I'm a fan of the male lead or secondary lead. She's just a bad actress. I realize many here think she's great and whatever...but I'm really surprised by her success. Especially in comparison to some of the new japanese actresses coming up like Aoi Yu or even the great skill of Ishihara Satomi , she's really weak and that in of itself makes the show hard to watch.
You seems to be in agony, why not you stop watching this drama? Since Horikita Maki is the most aweful actresses you've seen and she is the main lead and of course you will expect to see her most of the time.

And I didn't know that a bad actress can achieve this.
Recognitions
54th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Actress for Hanazakari no Kimitachi e
49th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Supporting Actress for Kurosagi
29th Japan Academy Awards: Best Newcomer for Always -Sunset on Third Street
47th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Supporting Actress for Nobuta wo Produce.

Hmm..

Trust me, stop watching this show and save 45 mins every week of your time.

But I will keep watching.
Why ask me why? You already quoted and responded to my why. You presume to know a lot about me because I'm critical on a show. I didn't figure that I would have such an emotional and physical reaction to a show for me to be in agony. I did say however there are elements of frustration...no doubt. Further more in regards to the male lead, no one seems up in arm to be upset over his performance. However, I get more critiques by you more so because I find Horikita Maki not up to par. I think she has a very long way to go in selling me a character.

Did I say she was the most awful? I do think she is consistently one of the least impressive. Very disappointing. And again, you quoted ONE reason made by me on why I liked it, which makes me wonder why you keep asking me. I did make mention of several other reasons why I'm here, besides Narimiya Hiroki. As a matter of fact, I figured a lot of people did love the actress as that this thread seems to be dominated by this fact. But that has nothing to do with my critique, of the actress....it's solely on her performance and I feel I have the right to express it despite it not being a popular opinion. I mean there are have been one post that I'm aware of where the individual did not like the show...I don't see how love and adoration are needed for a thread especially in a story that I had some hopes for since I sat through the entire first episode...which is not the norm if I really hate the show.

It just left something lacking. Which some have said they felt as well. As for awards...I know of many many bad actresses that have recieved many of an award, not because of skill but mainly due to popularity, this goes doubly for males; or just by fluke on how many of those actresses who came out the same time were "new". CV does nothing for me if the character is not sold. Maki on the other hasn't delivered in the performance, just as her lead has not.

I'll give an example. When watching a show I love being so engrossed in the topic that I forget that I'm watching a show. I can name several Jdorama's in which that was the case. Yet, within this show I'm fully aware of anything. She has no chemistry with the lead and for me to even say that means that this is something TWO way. Chemistry is never one way. There needs to be bond there and I have not been sold on it and for even Maki's character to be so "madly" affected by this male lead poses an inherent problem with the character.

Again I think more problems as a whole that causes a fairly large disconnect between the character (acted by her) and the audience. And I noticed my, or what I thought was fairly indepth critique beyond skill would lay a foundation as to some of the failure of the show....which is what I was primarily responding too in my post anyway. But again her "madness" (since I don't see much sanity in it) towards this guy is not even sort of romantically inspiring. The vibe is more so brotherly, even if that. Since the performance of the male is worse than hers.

These are some of the fundamental issues affecting the show, despite the minute reasons I decided to stay. Further more I am into the story (which I believe I clearly stated) despite the fact the delivery is weak. There's something there I think would have made this show a great drama. I just don't think I'm getting from the actors' performances.

As for your final statement. You have a bit of nerve to tell me what to do. I'm a bit surprised since I didn't tell anyone what to do in the story nor on this thread. You're really something to go to that extreme because I have a different opinion from you. I have in the past critized the acting of actresses and actors I adore watching, which I find to be healthy. It's times like this I have to wonder why this thread can be deemed a "discussion" thread, since obviously some opinions are far from welcome.

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Post by vaberella » Nov 20th, '08, 14:08

Rori wrote:Have to say I'm agreeing with vaberella too. I'm not saying anything on Maki, I've never liked her so anything I say will most likely be my own bias. But the story is utterly unrealistic, it's silly. I have to admit the twists and all are good to watch but it's too confusing, and yes, it's too boring a lot of the time. Now, Nari was the reason I started watching this drama (well one of them) but he's not the reason I'm continuing to watch it, I just want to see how it all ends. (I watched about 10 minutes of episode 5 and that's because I skipped through the other half an hour)

As for the acting of the others, the lead male is a newbie, and while he does have some cringe-worthy scenes, he's alright. Yuu, who was TERRIBLE in Yukan Club is actually doing a decent job here. Nari has always been a great actor for me. I honestly don't pay attention to any other characters much.
Agreed. There's something, or something enough here that gets me. It can get confusing and that's definitely something a writer doesn't want. I found the premise to actually be good and I get the feeling the writer or creator was after a bit of sensationalism in their hopes. Paticularly by the response to the scenes that were dropped.

I'm not sure how many people are picking up on this vibe, but I get the feeling he wanted to push some boundaries; considering the speculated storylines or the direct the story line will be taking. Very rarely done in dramas, predominantly only found in jdoramas (this aspect of Jdoramas is what keeps me coming back). In any event, the built up is good on one hand and then it gets laden by rather "filler-ish" scenes that give this disconnected feel and ultimately leads some viewers to boredom I find.

At this point the writers laid the ground work for netizen reaction. And that's exactly one of the reasons keeping me here...what the hell is going on and what the hell is happening here? Because of the unrealism aspect added to a lot of this, I think I'm also seeking a realistic finality. Something that ends up tieing the entire story together so there can be an "Ah-Ha" moment. I realize that it may be reaching, but the hope is there because as I said I sort of like the story. Currently I find each episode independent of the other since, for the last 5 eps, there has not been one thing answered, or leading us to think there is an answer. I mean in connection to the many questions that have been asked, and paticularly those asked on this thread: Which I have found to be viable questions.

~sigh~ If I had control of the story what I would have done. I think the first thing was to choose two actors who can make the love story come alive. So even if the initial scene is unrequited (slight) obsession, there's somethign else from the other actor that we can get the growing depth. I think this is one of my primary problems. The lack of chemistry between the leads. Sorry for the side track but my mind keeps reverting to their scenes.

Wait...huh...something just hit me. I think that's what I'm supposed to get in the story. I keep looking for romantic love. I should focus on the title of the story. Innocent love...maybe I'm supposed to get that brotherly/sisterly vibe (of course this would be shot to hell if they kiss). I'll run with the thought, but I'd like the readers of my post to understand it's speculation.

Maybe her obsession is through her looking at him (because he was so nice and response to her) as a brother, not realizing it though. He ends up fulfilling the place her brother filled before the death of their parents. He makes her smile and makes her feel lighthearted. Someone she could share with in a really closed off world, or one closed off to her. So her response is supposed to be sisterly but confused for romance initially. If that's the case then I can understand him more...but right now I'm basically playing devil's advocate. So meh. I'm sure in at least the next 2 or 3 eps I might be proved really wrong.

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Sacrifice

Post by Lakay » Nov 20th, '08, 14:38

It just hit me (as I reread my last post above (yes I do that for some spelling mistakes) about sacrifice. Something was "bothering" me. So I re-watched (for the nth time) the first episode, and presto, I found it.

In the first episode's opening credits where Junya was seen running as Kanon was waiting at a Church entrance, a word was flashed for each character shown. For instance, "Destiny" for Kanon, "Memory" for Junya, "Betrayal" for Kiyoka, etc. The word flashed for Yoji was "Sacrifice". That scene in the 5th episode where Yoji looked at the rosary (which as we know represents the ultimate sacrifice - at least for Christians) before turning himself to the police, was very nicely done in my opinion - aside from the very good facial expressions by Fukushi, it showed great representation as it jibed with the keyword for the character.

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Post by emmy21 » Nov 20th, '08, 15:44

Lakay wrote:Some observations:
So it can be assumed that Kanon have been molested for 1 year beginning from that Christmas. The sweater her father was wearing that night was light brown, the same color of the one who entered Kanon's room. So I think the molester was the father
That's interesting...
It didn't occur to me that the x'mas party memories that kanon had were from one year before the incident. I kept thinking they were from x'mas eve night of the fire. But I went back to ep 1 to relook and it makes sense cos of the family photograph. they couldn't have taken it if it was the day itself.

I hadn't noticed that Kanon's father was wearing the same colour sweater and pants as the person who went up the stairs. Think I'm really not very observant to the clues. But if it was her father, and the molestation only started from that night, why did Kanon look so terrified when she turned and saw who it was?

Hmm....

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Post by Nomanymore » Nov 20th, '08, 16:11

wow, long posts... ^^;

ok it's normal everyone has their own opinions& I also think it's normal too for the fans to react when their idol is criticized, well it depends on people, some are more sensitive so shouldn't take their words to heart& feels offensive. you have right to say what you think, I have right to say no, I don't agree with that too :p but that stops there, as for certain subject as "Maki is a good actress?" or not is simply a worthless discussion, there'll be no end, no answer, since everyone will stand for their opinions; and I don't think anyone would get anything from it. well, I'm trying to find words here, since it's obvious I'm a huge Maki fan lol and I admit I'm biased or whatever people call me lol All right, I've seen many of her works (or most)& there're many roles that I can't think anyone but her can portray it (which i refer to Nobuta, ok it was the drama that made me into her and no i didn't know anything about johnny, for that matter ^^) I think many will agree with me about her versatility, serious, humor, horror.. her roles are quiet never the same & everytime you can see she puts lot efforts in it, like in"Always" where she had to speak in a different dialect; If you say she's the worst, to me actresses who get the same roles over& over again (Kyoko Fukada) or those are only known by their cutely image watever are types I won't support.
well, ok, I can go on& on but I'll stop here. & as this is my opinion, hopefully I won't get any kick back. As i said, this is a pointless subject, let not drag on it.

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Post by miznagase » Nov 20th, '08, 16:42

zhenxi wrote:You seems to be in agony, why not you stop watching this drama? Since Horikita Maki is the most aweful actresses you've seen and she is the main lead and of course you will expect to see her most of the time.

And I didn't know that a bad actress can achieve this.
Recognitions
54th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Actress for Hanazakari no Kimitachi e
49th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Supporting Actress for Kurosagi
29th Japan Academy Awards: Best Newcomer for Always -Sunset on Third Street
47th Television Drama Academy Awards: Best Supporting Actress for Nobuta wo Produce.

Hmm..

Trust me, stop watching this show and save 45 mins every week of your time.

But I will keep watching.
umm...do you really believe that the television drama academy awards and the japan academy awards are based on acting skills?
they're more of a popularity contest.
just because maki won all those awards doesn't mean she's a great actress.
it's almost shocking to see the kind of people who get these awards :roll
i'm not saying that maki is a horrible actress, but she's not great and award-deserving either :glare:
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Post by vaberella » Nov 21st, '08, 06:44

Nomanymore wrote:wow, long posts... ^^;

ok it's normal everyone has their own opinions& I also think it's normal too for the fans to react when their idol is criticized, well it depends on people, some are more sensitive so shouldn't take their words to heart& feels offensive. you have right to say what you think, I have right to say no, I don't agree with that too :p but that stops there, as for certain subject as "Maki is a good actress?" or not is simply a worthless discussion, there'll be no end, no answer, since everyone will stand for their opinions; and I don't think anyone would get anything from it. well, I'm trying to find words here, since it's obvious I'm a huge Maki fan lol and I admit I'm biased or whatever people call me lol All right, I've seen many of her works (or most)& there're many roles that I can't think anyone but her can portray it (which i refer to Nobuta, ok it was the drama that made me into her and no i didn't know anything about johnny, for that matter ^^) I think many will agree with me about her versatility, serious, humor, horror.. her roles are quiet never the same & everytime you can see she puts lot efforts in it, like in"Always" where she had to speak in a different dialect; If you say she's the worst, to me actresses who get the same roles over& over again (Kyoko Fukada) or those are only known by their cutely image watever are types I won't support.
well, ok, I can go on& on but I'll stop here. & as this is my opinion, hopefully I won't get any kick back. As i said, this is a pointless subject, let not drag on it.
`
I think the question on whether she's good or not is not "worthless" as you put it. For instance, and I will give an example of an actress that continously disappoints me but has potential. Keep in mind I'm not sure you know her but she's Rainie Yang. This actress actually from what I can see has potential. There are times there's something there. However, I can honestly say that in every single role she has taken to date I have found her acting horribly. I think she's better than the roles she takes and I feel she limits herself a great deal and does herself an injustice. Because of this, her acting just seems below measure for me.

That being said, and I said this in an earlier post, I have criticized actresses I love watching. I'm not someone who's attached emotionally to an actress or actor. For the main reason that I'm not in love with them and will probably never know them personally. However, there have been many who definitely have good taste in drama and some who test their limit and come out shining. I have also been very surprised by some actors who I thought were horrible who have just wow'd me.

Now, unfortunately to date Horikita Maki does nothing for me and yes it is an opinion but it does nothing for me. And I expressed an opinion attached to my review and ideas mainly because they are interrelated. My assesment is my understanding of the characters as they are portrayed and expressed by the actors/actresses that play them.

So in affect it was NEVER get into an argument over her skill. As a fan, and as I've seen most people react to actors/actresses they're fans of---they are emotionally invested into the actor/actresses and get up tight over criticism of said person. However, when critiquing the entire story as a whole I had to critique the performance because in many ways it limits the magnitude of the story.

Say for instance you whip the story around a bit and add a more seasoned and older cast for instance. Kimura Takuya as the lead guy and Takeuchi Yuko as lead female and I can tell you there is no doubt you'd get an entirely DIFFERENT vibe in the way the roles are portrayed. That's just really the reason I brought it up.
_______________________________________________________________________
In any event I figure this story may not actually turn romantic for the two leads. I think the whole thing is a brotherly/sister relationship and I think her "brother" is only upset over the fact that he couldn't be the male to protect her....ie her have her depend solely on him and now she's moved on to someone else for that male role. Hence the whole thing of "Innocent Love" I could be wrong but the lack of romantic chemistry does scream love to me.

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Post by shiningstarss » Nov 21st, '08, 07:52

Rori wrote:Have to say I'm agreeing with vaberella too. I'm not saying anything on Maki, I've never liked her so anything I say will most likely be my own bias. But the story is utterly unrealistic, it's silly. I have to admit the twists and all are good to watch but it's too confusing, and yes, it's too boring a lot of the time. Now, Nari was the reason I started watching this drama (well one of them) but he's not the reason I'm continuing to watch it, I just want to see how it all ends. (I watched about 10 minutes of episode 5 and that's because I skipped through the other half an hour)

As for the acting of the others, the lead male is a newbie, and while he does have some cringe-worthy scenes, he's alright. Yuu, who was TERRIBLE in Yukan Club is actually doing a decent job here. Nari has always been a great actor for me. I honestly don't pay attention to any other characters much.
its my first post! but i must to say it- the story isnt utterly unrealistic"", it happens in real life! to me anyway. Not all the parts of course.. and i'm watching this show because the contents are interesting. Drama is drama!

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Post by tavon1 » Nov 21st, '08, 15:02

Why are all of you arguing over a never ending topic. I mean I am a Maki fan. But everyone has their own views on actor and actress. Some people might like one thing and other might like another. So please stop arguing over that. We are here to discuss about Innocent Love.

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Post by drama-queen » Nov 21st, '08, 15:30

tavon1 wrote:Why are all of you arguing over a never ending topic. I mean I am a Maki fan. But everyone has their own views on actor and actress. Some people might like one thing and other might like another. So please stop arguing over that. We are here to discuss about Innocent Love.
Amen to that.

I like Maki, but I've not watched this drama yet, the story did not appeal to me at first.

It's now 5 episodes in... Should I start to watch or give it a miss? Any contructive advice welcome!
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Post by shiningstarss » Nov 21st, '08, 15:55

watch it if u don't mind issues that are quite touchy..

i.e.
1. loving someone that is inanimate
2. witnessing gay relationships
3. a girl who would kill over a man
4. a brother who kill over his sister
[/spoiler]

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Post by Modvind » Nov 22nd, '08, 17:36

drama-queen wrote:
tavon1 wrote:Why are all of you arguing over a never ending topic. I mean I am a Maki fan. But everyone has their own views on actor and actress. Some people might like one thing and other might like another. So please stop arguing over that. We are here to discuss about Innocent Love.
Amen to that.

I like Maki, but I've not watched this drama yet, the story did not appeal to me at first.

It's now 5 episodes in... Should I start to watch or give it a miss? Any contructive advice welcome!
Watch the first episode, if Kitagawa made you want to strangle him more than thrice, I'd drop the idea... :roll

I find the story very unrealistic, not more than usual for a jdorama, but does raise interesting issues, although hardly revolutionary. I think Maki does quite well as Kanon, she's not much different from earlier roles (Tokyo Boy comes to mind, when she's not a boy of course...), she's very cute and pure, being what the role requires. Personally, the Christian theme and Kanon letting people walk all over her annoy me greatly. But I really think that the poor ratings are caused by Kitagawa's poor acting, if a more experienced actor played Junya, I'd probably watch it to the end, but at the moment I'm wavering.

I don't know if that helps you decide, just my two cent. :-)

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Post by Nomanymore » Nov 22nd, '08, 18:30

drama-queen wrote:
tavon1 wrote:Why are all of you arguing over a never ending topic. I mean I am a Maki fan. But everyone has their own views on actor and actress. Some people might like one thing and other might like another. So please stop arguing over that. We are here to discuss about Innocent Love.
Amen to that.

I like Maki, but I've not watched this drama yet, the story did not appeal to me at first.

It's now 5 episodes in... Should I start to watch or give it a miss? Any contructive advice welcome!
I think better you wait for sub, I'm timing it so I know it really makes different when you understand the dialogues :) eps 2 must be out.. soon, well i'm not the one who hardsub so can't say ^^;

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Post by tavon1 » Nov 22nd, '08, 22:50

It is subs on crunchyroll

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Post by ZoddGuts » Nov 22nd, '08, 23:37

Modvind wrote:
drama-queen wrote:
tavon1 wrote:Why are all of you arguing over a never ending topic. I mean I am a Maki fan. But everyone has their own views on actor and actress. Some people might like one thing and other might like another. So please stop arguing over that. We are here to discuss about Innocent Love.
Amen to that.

I like Maki, but I've not watched this drama yet, the story did not appeal to me at first.

It's now 5 episodes in... Should I start to watch or give it a miss? Any contructive advice welcome!
Watch the first episode, if Kitagawa made you want to strangle him more than thrice, I'd drop the idea... :roll

I find the story very unrealistic, not more than usual for a jdorama, but does raise interesting issues, although hardly revolutionary. I think Maki does quite well as Kanon, she's not much different from earlier roles (Tokyo Boy comes to mind, when she's not a boy of course...), she's very cute and pure, being what the role requires. Personally, the Christian theme and Kanon letting people walk all over her annoy me greatly. But I really think that the poor ratings are caused by Kitagawa's poor acting, if a more experienced actor played Junya, I'd probably watch it to the end, but at the moment I'm wavering.

I don't know if that helps you decide, just my two cent. :-)
Same opinion here, I mean unless the it's an asian culture thing where someone else look down on or be scared of just because of something else a family member did. The whole "I wouldn't have hired you if I've known your brother was a killer" scene had me rolling my eyes, same goes with the lady in the beggining of the episode after she gets to here from the guy that her brother is a killer "oh nose I better get rid of her" scene had me. :roll

I don't have a problem with Christian theme's as long their long overdone which they kinda are here, would have prefered if they had kept the Christian theme subtle. Then there's the male lead acting Kitagawa who just can't act at all. Both verbally and physically he can't act. He's facial expressions look akward looks forced, same goes vocablly sounds like he's reading a script being shown to him for the first time with no practice beforehand during all he's scenes. I don't see him improving much they really should have gotten an experience actor here.

But hey I've only watched the first episode but reading other people's post I don't expect this series to get any better. Pretty dissapointing considering the hype this series had that it didn't turn out to be good.

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Post by drama-queen » Nov 23rd, '08, 02:14

Great, thanks for the objective reviews, that's exactly what I was looking for :salut:. I'll watch the first episode and see if I want to kick the TV screen

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Post by charia-chan » Nov 23rd, '08, 02:44

Although....
To my mind the first episode was not that good.
But now I am so happy I kept on watching because i feel that this dorama has a very slow start but gets better with every episode and more fascinating.
My favorite until now was episode 4....
I always believe it is hard to judge a dorama from watching just one episode.
But I am happy that you will at least give it a chance^^

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Post by Toritorisan » Nov 23rd, '08, 03:00

charia-chan wrote:Although....
To my mind the first episode was not that good.
But now I am so happy I kept on watching because i feel that this dorama has a very slow start but gets better with every episode and more fascinating.
My favorite until now was episode 4....
I always believe it is hard to judge a dorama from watching just one episode.
But I am happy that you will at least give it a chance^^
I watched the first episode of this drama, and I thought it was a bit slow too, so I stopped watching it. But my friend in Japan emailed saying that she loves this drama and looks forward to watching it each week because it is suspenseful. So I think I will give it another chance and maybe watch it after all the episodes come out as she said it gets much more interesting as the story progresses.

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Post by tavon1 » Nov 23rd, '08, 03:01

I liked episode 4 too. It had a little twist in the whole episode too.

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Post by ch3nny » Nov 23rd, '08, 15:26

i dont really watch J dramas, but i abolutely love this drama! i just watch the first ep and its got me hooked!

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Post by NatsumiSatsuki » Nov 23rd, '08, 16:00

Yay!!

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Post by nix_renji » Nov 24th, '08, 00:44

As many has commented, beauty (or acting skills in this case) is in the eye of the beholder. I admit I'm no film critic, just a fan. Throw in an doable plot and a couple of my favourite casts, you got me hooked :clap:

About episode 5...
Kiyoka really gets dead, huh? Can you actually do that? I mean get dead when you feel like it. But it was kind of melancholy how Kanon was the one to wish Kiyoka her last "Good night".
And don't get me started on Youji. Why of why do you have to surrender yourself. Everybody knows you're not the murderer... I hope :fight:
Anyway,I'm totally psyched about tonight's episode 6. Does anybody know how many episodes confirmed for Innocent Love? Usually it's 10, no?
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Post by Lakay » Nov 24th, '08, 03:16

nix_renji wrote: About episode 5...
Kiyoka really gets dead, huh? Can you actually do that? I mean get dead when you feel like it. But it was kind of melancholy how Kanon was the one to wish Kiyoka her last "Good night".
And don't get me started on Youji. Why of why do you have to surrender yourself. Everybody knows you're not the murderer... I hope :fight:
Anyway,I'm totally psyched about tonight's episode 6. Does anybody know how many episodes confirmed for Innocent Love? Usually it's 10, no?
The trailer for Episode 6 seems to indicate Kiyoka is still alive (at least for the early part of Episode 6).

If my understanding (of Japanese) is correct, Yoji is not giving himself up for the murder. He is giving himself up for the attack on Ikeda - as Ikeda and his superior was talking in the hospital, the superior mentioned that Yoji already served 6 years for the homicide-arson and asked Ikeda so why is he still investigating?

My take is that Yoji wants to be in jail for 2 reasons - one is to assure his sister that he is safe so Kanon won't have to worry about his whereabouts; and two, he wants to talk with Ikeda (of course, he could have done this through other means without going to jail, but this is just a secondary reason to the first). I am predicting Ikeda will pay Yoji a visit in tonight's episode and they will have a talk.
According to drama wiki, IL will have 11 episodes:

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Innocent_Love

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Post by westlake » Nov 25th, '08, 06:12

Episode 6...
Lol...Junya, the walking zombie...I think he acts better as a happy character...haha. Aww...it is so sweet that Kanon stayed by Kiyoka's side when she was in the hospital.

Argh... I can't understand what Yoji said to Kanon when she visited him and that is one of the important part of this episode...so frustrating >.< And the last part of this episode, where Kiyoka suddenly sitting up on the bed really scared me especially when she turned her head...lol :lol Anyway, I'm glad that next episode we'll get to see some acting from Kiyoka. Although I guess that also means more bullying...hahaha
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Post by HPriest » Nov 25th, '08, 12:31

12.6% .. the first increase in ratings.
It could have been higher, but hopefully it's a good sign for the last episodes to come.
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Post by avieamber » Nov 25th, '08, 13:57

subs....i need subs.... :lol

that's good to hear, the increase rating. :cheers:

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Post by Lakay » Nov 25th, '08, 15:10

westlake wrote:Episode 6...
Lol...Junya, the walking zombie...I think he acts better as a happy character...haha. Aww...it is so sweet that Kanon stayed by Kiyoka's side when she was in the hospital.

Argh... I can't understand what Yoji said to Kanon when she visited him and that is one of the important part of this episode...so frustrating >.< And the last part of this episode, where Kiyoka suddenly sitting up on the bed really scared me especially when she turned her head...lol :lol Anyway, I'm glad that next episode we'll get to see some acting from Kiyoka. Although I guess that also means more bullying...hahaha
I will try to help. Just take my poor translation with a grain of salt :)
The dialogue between Kanon and Yoji went something like this:

Yoji: Thanks for coming.
Kanon: Big brother, please tell me the truth.
Y: Don't you remember all?
K: I remember you standing, holding the knife...But I don't understand coz I can't remember what happened before that. Did you really do it?
Y: It was really me.
K: But why?
Y: Don't you remember? Father was always angry at me coz I stopped going to school and I shut myself up. I got fed up (with his nagging? - I am not so sure about this).
K: How about mother?
Y: She was protecting father...Kanon, I am really sorry. I am not a good brother contrary to what you think. Please forget that you have a brother. Just think that I don't exist.
K: Big brother...
Y: That person is really nice, isn't he?
K: Junya-san?
Y: Yes.
K: But he already has a girlfriend named Kiyoka.
Y: Ah, the bed-ridden GF.
K: How did you know that?
Y: Kanon. My only wish now is for you to be happy... But be careful about that Reporter Ikeda. Don't get near him, he's a bad person. He will just use you.

<<End>>

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Post by Nomanymore » Nov 25th, '08, 15:24

Something must have happened to Kanon, that Youji's afraid she might remember :( I guess their father really did it, that's why Youji killed him..

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Post by ch3nny » Nov 25th, '08, 15:32

im dying to watch the rest of the series =~( but i dont understand without subz =/

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Post by westlake » Nov 25th, '08, 18:18

Lakay wrote:
westlake wrote:Episode 6...
Lol...Junya, the walking zombie...I think he acts better as a happy character...haha. Aww...it is so sweet that Kanon stayed by Kiyoka's side when she was in the hospital.

Argh... I can't understand what Yoji said to Kanon when she visited him and that is one of the important part of this episode...so frustrating >.< And the last part of this episode, where Kiyoka suddenly sitting up on the bed really scared me especially when she turned her head...lol :lol Anyway, I'm glad that next episode we'll get to see some acting from Kiyoka. Although I guess that also means more bullying...hahaha
I will try to help. Just take my poor translation with a grain of salt :)
The dialogue between Kanon and Yoji went something like this:

Yoji: Thanks for coming.
Kanon: Big brother, please tell me the truth.
Y: Don't you remember all?
K: I remember you standing, holding the knife...But I don't understand coz I can't remember what happened before that. Did you really do it?
Y: It was really me.
K: But why?
Y: Don't you remember? Father was always angry at me coz I stopped going to school and I shut myself up. I got fed up (with his nagging? - I am not so sure about this).
K: How about mother?
Y: She was protecting father...Kanon, I am really sorry. I am not a good brother contrary to what you think. Please forget that you have a brother. Just think that I don't exist.
K: Big brother...
Y: That person is really nice, isn't he?
K: Junya-san?
Y: Yes.
K: But he already has a girlfriend named Kiyoka.
Y: Ah, the bed-ridden GF.
K: How did you know that?
Y: Kanon. My only wish now is for you to be happy... But be careful about that Reporter Ikeda. Don't get near him, he's a bad person. He will just use you.

<<End>>
Wow...thanks Lakay. I appreciate it. :-) That's good enough...at least I got an idea of what they were talking. Based on your translation, I feel like Yoji is still not completely honest with Kanon...it kinda feels like he hiding something..lol. Anyway, I'm glad the ratings went up too. Hopefully the ratings will increase gradually from here on....at least to an acceptable level...lol :thumright:
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Post by Lakay » Nov 25th, '08, 18:45

westlake wrote:
Wow...thanks Lakay. I appreciate it. :-) That's good enough...at least I got an idea of what they were talking. Based on your translation, I feel like Yoji is still not completely honest with Kanon...it kinda feels like he hiding something..lol. Anyway, I'm glad the ratings went up too. Hopefully the ratings will increase gradually from here on....at least to an acceptable level...lol :thumright:
No problem. Just don't take it hard on me when my translations will be proven off-based :)

Yes, Yoji is definitely hiding something. In their dialogue, he kept on changing/shifting the discussion. When I watched it at first, I was confused because I cannot see continuity in what they were talking and cannot make sense. But when I read the closed-caption, it made perfect sense - Yoji was intentionally beating around the bush (so to speak).

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