[Discussion] Yoshitsune

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How would you rate Yoshitsune?

Life-Altering
11
25%
See it
21
48%
Probably shouldn't miss it
6
14%
Only if you have time
5
11%
STAY AWAY
1
2%
 
Total votes: 44

donna8157
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[Discussion] Yoshitsune

Post by donna8157 » Dec 19th, '04, 13:15

New 2005 NHK Taiga Drama

I'm so excited to see this series! I've read through other forums that a lot of critics praised Takizawa Hideaki's portrayal of Yoshitsune and some say that this is his best acting yet. I've seen some screenshots of him in costume and he looks great!

Image

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Official Site:
ttp://www3.nhk.or.jp/taiga/yoshitsune/index.html

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techie
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Post by techie » Dec 20th, '04, 00:17

oh oh :blink ... Ueto is in it too :D

Miko Sadoriko
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Yoshitsune ^_^ !!!!!

Post by Miko Sadoriko » Jan 11th, '05, 07:59

does ne one know when/where someone will upload Yoshitsune??? its the new taigo drama (with Takizawa Hideaki as Yoshitsune)...i dont care if its a TV-rip...as long as its Yoshitsune...DOMO ARIGATO GOZAIMASU MINNA-SAN!!!! :D

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Post by Miko Sadoriko » Jan 11th, '05, 08:07

HAI...gomen ne...its *taiga* not *taigo* hehehe silly me :lol

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Post by Y_T » Jan 11th, '05, 12:14


donna8157
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Post by donna8157 » Jan 12th, '05, 18:56

I heard that "Yoshitsune" will start airing in socal/nocal in February. With English subtitles of course.

Anyway, there already is a "Yoshitsune" thread.

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Post by xiaryx » Feb 8th, '05, 07:54

hehe I decided it is time to start a discussion thread for this..

So in the drama, they keep mentioning samurai. But to my knowledge they do not come into existance until after the Heian period. Am I missing something or did they translate it incorrectly?

lilpanda01
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hmmm

Post by lilpanda01 » Feb 12th, '05, 10:02

ahh~~~ i can't believe a takki drama is showing on tv!!!!! i <3 ktsf-26 in the bay area for showing it!!!! (IF YOU HAVE THIS CHANNEL, WATCH YOSHITSUNE!!!!! IT'S AT 9:30PM EVERY SATURDAY NIGHT) so far, since it just started showing last week (and they only show 1/2 an episode each time i think) so i've only seen like 5 MIN OF TAKKI (in what i believe is one of yoshitsune's famous battles?)!!!! >_< since the drama covers yoshitsune's childhood for about 3 episodes (not entirely sure)... that means takki won't show up until... uhhhhh... 6 more weeks?! noooo~~~~

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Post by shikirocks » Feb 20th, '05, 15:09

Could you post some extrz details about which channel this is showing in? I am goign to try and see if i can get it. I am in Canada though.

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Post by Yashiro » Feb 20th, '05, 15:38

See it , really good Taiga Dorama , with Ueto Aya :wub: , and Takizawa Hideaki :w00t:

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Post by jsoda » Feb 22nd, '05, 07:29

I've watch it through episode 6; so far it's awesome!!! Great casting, scenary and more! When would episode 7 come out? Thanks for the ones who UL this for us!!!

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Post by goman » Feb 27th, '05, 08:54

When will the subtitled versions come out? I was thinking of going for the unsubbed eps, but would rather wait for the subbed release to be able watch it with friends that don`t speak japanese if those are not too far away! Any clues?
Last edited by goman on Feb 27th, '05, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Carn » Feb 27th, '05, 08:56

By the way, it's showing on KSCI (Channel 18) in SoCal, for those of you who don't already know. I think Episode 2 aired tonight. =0

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Post by PuddingBerry » Mar 15th, '05, 04:16


I've watched it once on TV ... by accident = =" lol

i was surfing through the TV when I saw Tackey's

face on it.. i think Tackey is a very good actor!!!

And he's so handsome~~ :wub:
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Post by vhh » Mar 22nd, '05, 02:44

Pretty good so far. :D Waiting to see Goto Maki, and Toda Naho. :wub:

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Post by Niko » Mar 23rd, '05, 01:52

It must be the destiny, but the only reason I got interested in Yoshitsune is because Gocchin, but thanks to that, now I'm involved in the J-Drama world :) , thanks to Gocchin :wub: ... Yoshitsune looks so fantastic, I still haven't seen all the episodes, I'm still waiting when Maki finally appears.
Regards :)

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Post by Eliza » Apr 13th, '06, 19:32

Oh, I'm sooo suprised that this drama thread is only 2 pages long...
It's is such a good drama! I like it very much- I've seen only 7 eps since now, but I'll definetly watch all 49!

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Post by apples » Apr 15th, '06, 15:57

Eliza wrote:Oh, I'm sooo suprised that this drama thread is only 2 pages long...
It's is such a good drama! I like it very much- I've seen only 7 eps since now, but I'll definetly watch all 49!
same here... over a year old thread and it's too short for a great drama!

i was craving for more romance between yoshitsune and shizuka though. it's just too sad. well, the story was sad. i knew it was gonna end up sad because after episode 3 i started looking up more about yoshitsune and other characters over wikipedia. but still, i was hoping for some happy ending.

indeed it's one long drama, but it sucks you into the heian period. it's really good that i ended up spending three days watching from ep 20 to the end. even after episode 49.. even with a good ending, i still wanted more. actually my disk that contained the last episodes also had some episodes of tokimune hojo in it. i didn't do it on purpose, but it was weird how i jumped into watching a drama three generations after yoshitsune's time.

anyway, i really hated hojo masako. i'm not too sure if what yoritomo did was a success or not. the drama is just tragic, but that's what makes it interesting. i hope more people will watch it.

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Post by Otakups » Apr 15th, '06, 16:06

Even if I understand very little Japanese, this taiga drama is a classic! Aside from being a famous legendary epic, this series has an all star cast with Hideaki Takizawa and those two kawaii onna - Aya Ueto and Satomi Ishihara! They're all here!

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Post by Crazy Penguin » Apr 15th, '06, 16:42

Matsudaira Ken as Benkei was just great. A true warrior monk, scary as hell at times, but then completely funny (like his encounter with a certain woman).

Ishihara as Shizuka was just too cute and too passive for my tastes. Ueto's Utsubo was good, though, a true girl from the streets of old Kyoto, who remained on her course.

Hojo Masako was great, I loved how her first encounter with Yoritomo. In history she received the nickname "nun shogun" after the death of her husband (which, ironically, is linked to Yoshitsune, too; at least in folk tales. It's said that Yoritomo's horse threw him off when it was startled by Yoshitsune's ghost, who was haunting his brother because of the betrayal many years afterwards), when she held together the Kamakura Shogunate.

Yoritomo though, no matter what people may think of him and despite his betrayal (which was common tactics in politics anyway, just take Go-Shirakawa's motives and tactics), was a brilliant statesman who changed Japan and brought it away from the court and really into the hands of the samurai, where it stayed until 1868.

Their daughter, though... Now she was CUTE.

Personally I didn't like how they ended Tomoe Gozen's career. Letting her die on the battlefield, leading a blazing charge of what's left of Yoshinaka's army at the enemy would have been better for her, or maybe go for the second option, that of letting her become a nun, after all, those are two of the three known legends about her end. The third talks about how she threw herself into the see right after fleeing the battlefield with Yoshinaka's head. But having Tomoe settling down and have a child? Oivech! That's not the Tomoe Gozen that appears in the Heike Monogatari.

Yoshitsune... I wasn't too impressed with him the way it was played, sorry to say that. Well, he was good looking, but... that's about it. And naive, so horribly naive, I can't imagine that the real Yoshitsune was really THAT naive. I was always thinking how Fujiwara Tatsuya would have played him, or even Oguri Shun.
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Post by debstuh » Apr 17th, '06, 02:47

--
Last edited by debstuh on Mar 9th, '10, 08:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by groink » Apr 17th, '06, 03:22

Interesting enough, Yoshitsune was actually a flop according to the ratings. It started out above 20 points in the beginning - just like every other taiga drama starting with Ryukyu no Kaze in 1993. However, at around week 24 it started to tank, several weeks reaching as low as 13.5 points which is major disaster in the taiga drama realm. Reading various articles, the idea of using idol power in this taiga drama did three things:

1. It attracted the trendy drama fans to the taiga drama early on.

2. It turned off the traditional taiga drama fans from the beginning.

3. After awhile, the trendy drama idol fans tuned away as well.
- Too long
- Storyline is crap
- Their favorite idols didn't get the coverage they were hoping for

With Komyo ga Tsuji, NHK went back to focusing on the story itself and using traditional methods of recruiting artists, rather than trying to use the taiga drama to attract the younger viewers into watching these long period dramas by appealing to what they like. IMHO, they tried the idol thing as an experiment, but overall it didn't work out as well as they had anticipated. Lesson learned - You can use idol power to attract the idol-followers to watching any show in the beginning. But, in the long run, the story is EVERYTHING. Idol power works in 12-week seasons because of the short-attention span of the idol fans - NOT 1-year dramas like these taiga dramas. I doubt NHK will make this same mistake again for quite awhile.

To be quite honest, I can't comprehend the reason why NHK is so wrapped up about the ratings being low. I mean, there are no CMs and other marketing on NHK (it's basically a publicly-run TV network.) And the residents there are required to pay the TV tax, so NHK is receiving revenue whether they're doing well or not. With this in mind, I'd say "screw the idol fans!!!!" and stick with what they've been doing these past 40 years. Even if the taiga dramas draw single-digit percentages, I'm still watching them because it is ME that I'm only concerned about.

For the record... I stopped watching Yoshitsune after episode 12. I just couldn't stand it.

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Post by sunmoon » Oct 7th, '06, 05:22

Gah is there any clubbox where i can dl this from? But i dont understand japanese anyway T.T lol but the scenes are so beautiful..it reminds me of "glass mask" so i really want to watch it XD
I dont think takky is good enough to portray such a character though....i hope johnny would stop pushin all their fav boys into dramas >.> it seems like theres no chance for other actors to get a leadin role ==> sucks...

edit: oh wait there is eng sub for the ones on daddicts XD hope there still r seeds

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Post by ushiushi » Oct 31st, '06, 09:52

I finally finished Yoshitsune, my first taiga drama, and I was surprised at how incredible it turned out to be even though I'm not much of a fan of pre-modern stuff. It did get boring early for a dozen episodes or so, but around the mid-20s when the war began and things were going to hell, it got really exciting and engaging for the rest of the series. I was also amazed how beautiful many of the scenes were, even though it was a VHS capture. My only regret is that Studio Oto didn't continue their HDTV fansubs because SO's Ep 1 looked so gorgeous compared to the SARS' 2+ VHS rips. ^_^

BTW, does anyone know if all these characters are based on real people? I tried to look up Ueto Aya's "Utsubo" and found nothing . . was Yoshitsune really involved in some kinda love triangle or was that just romance fluff injected in for the sake of romance fluff? =/

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Post by AJBryant » Nov 10th, '06, 00:10

Yes, they're based on real people. There are usually a couple of fictive elements thrown into the Taiga dramas (for example, the whole bit about the peasant girl being in love with Yoshitsune), but the major characters were predominantly real. There is some question as to how historical Benkei was, but he is referred to in the early records, the three principle literary tracks of the Heike (Heike Monogatari, Genpei Josuiki, and the Genpei Tojoroku) and the Gikeiki.


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Post by Tadanga » Aug 22nd, '08, 19:54

I have always stayed away from Taiga doramas because I always thought they were nothing more than low budget play-like costume parties until Groinke's passion convinced me to give Atsuhime a try.
And now I am hooked.
Yoshitsune is my second Taiga and I was really happy to fall once again under the spell of Inamori Izumi ( playing Tokiwa, Yoshitsune's Mum and Takiyama in Atsuhime).
She owns those types of roles like no other japanese actress.

Thank you Groink !

This is also a fun way to learn about japanese history and geography.

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Post by SuiginChou » Mar 11th, '09, 23:05

To hear someone say of Yoshitsune "the story was crap" completely blows my mind. O_O

First of all, the Heike Monogatari is one of the most well-loved historic chronicles in Japan, perhaps in the entire world. It is a perfectly-woven tapestry of legend and historic event, much like the tale of Robin Hood or of King Arthur (to relate it to English-speaking audiences) only this one is much more detailed and much more exciting! It is also (imo) the closest thing Japan has to the Romance of the Three Kingdoms: an historic legend or tale which is largely grounded in historic fact but with fun and fanciful embellishments here or there to enchant readers of all ages.

Second of all, I l-o-v-e-d this drama! Was it my first exposure to the tale? No: I read selections from the book (around one-third or so) for one of my college literature courses, and I discussed the historic events in both my Japanese history as well as my East Asian history courses in college. Was it my first NHK taiga drama? Yes. Was it my first Japanese drama? Lol, absolutely not, more like my 20th or 30th. And this was, hands down, the best drama I have seen of them all. Better than Densha Otoko, better than Galileo, better than Nodame Cantabile, better than Hero, I could keep going but there's an easier way to put it: the only other Japanese drama I've ever enjoyed as much as I enjoyed Yoshitsune is Karei Naru Ichizoku.

groinks explanation about why Yoshitsune's ratings tanked is probably spot on: but that doesn't mean that the writing or the acting sucked!

First the acting: most of the supporting characters did a good job. Perhaps not an A, but maybe a B or a B+. And sure, maybe the main actor himself only gets a B or a B+ from me too, but his character was so noble/naive that it didn't provide the youth many opportunities to flex his acting muscle and show us what he's got. It would hardly be fair to judge Takizawa Hideaki's acting abilities on this one performance alone. And even having said that, I still think he did above average (a B), not average or below (C, D, F).

But then there were amazing performances put on by Matsudaira Ken (Benkei), Zaizen Naomi (Hojo Masako), Hira Mikijiro (Go-Shirakawa), and Matsuzaka Keiko (Tokiko). I mean, they performed s-p-e-c-t-a-c-u-l-a-r-l-y! One of my college professors spent a great amount of time talking about Go-Shirakawa's personality and tactics (or what we know of him from the records available today); and Mikijiroさん's performance was uncannily realistic!! And then Zaizen Naomi! I mean, oh my god! I had disliked Hojo Masako in school, but I grew to despise her watching Yoshitsune! :) Fantastic acting.

Second the writing: the story was largely true to the book. They changed the exact year or the exact season an event occurred in by ever-so-much to make it easier for them to tell the story they wanted to tell, and that's fine. They toned down the gore in certain parts of the novel (e.g. Tomoe Gozen didn't get to decapitate anybody; she just sort of stabbed the guy and made him fall off of his horse :\). But if that's what this is all about -- complaining that the show wasn't 100% identical to the book -- then I'd suggest trying to write 49 scripts, each of them less than one hour long, and try to get every single character and every single moment from the Heike Monogatari into the program.

Am I saying the show wasn't a little campy at times? Of course not. I agree with groink that the NHK was definitely attempting to target the younger audience for obvious reasons. Characters like Kisanta (Ito Atsushi) and Tango, Go-Shirakawa's co-conspirator (Natsuki Mari) were definitely characters who embarrassed me or annoyed me more than they amused me. And seeing half of the cast of Hero, Morning Musume's Goto Maki, and Oguri Shun playing the supporting roles that they did all but proves groink's point: the NHK was 100% trying to grab people through star power.

But in closing, I'd like to repeat that bad motives do not a bad series make! :) And Yoshitsune was anything but a bad series. Despite its technical flaws, for me personally it's one of my very few 10/10's.

Thanks to the NHK for producing this taiga drama. Thanks to D-Addicts for pointing me in the right direction when I went looking for it. And thanks to you for taking the time to read this long reply.

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Post by garnet07 » Mar 11th, '09, 23:40

Yoshitsune was my first Taiga drama and it's what got me addicted to Taiga dramas. Tried it because of Takizawa Hideaki, but after watching the entire story, I also fell in love with the rest of the characters. Though the quality wasn't the greatest (probably because the video was vhs quality) the acting and set was very convincing. The beginning to the 2/3 of the story, it was intense. Though the story dragged a little at the end with the brother storyline, it was still a good Taiga drama overall.

Without Yoshitsune, I wouldn't be trying out Atsuhime, Shinsengumi or Tenchijin with the # of episodes they have. But you know, if you don't watch these shows, you'll be missing out on awesome stories that you cannot get from the 11-13 episode series. It's worth a try!! :-)
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Post by SuiginChou » Mar 15th, '09, 03:48

This reply is in response to a reply written in another thread which you can read: here (click me!). However, because my reply is almost entirely about Yoshitsune, and because this in large part responds to comments made by groink in this thread as well as in the other thread, I feel that it is most appropriate to post it here and not in the Tenchijin thread. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused the readers or the moderation team.

Total misread? LOL You are being much too melodramatic about this! :) First of all, I only misread one word. How is that a total misread? I know how: if and only if that one misread had been such a serious error that it would have had a significant impact on the interpretation of your post. But second of all, it didn't. That sort of knowledge may change my personal opinion of you, but it has no bearing on my impersonal reply to your criticisms, valid or invalid, of Yoshitsune.

Why do you keep asserting that the lower ratings Yoshitsune received (compared with other taiga dramas in recent years) somehow proves your point that it was a poor-quality production? And how do you even reach that conclusion!? (See end of this reply for mathematical proof that Yoshitsune competes with the very best of the last decade's taiga dramas.)

First of all, not all timeless classics start off as timeless classics. There have been many books or films in history which were lampooned and ridiculed initially only to go on to become well-loved the world over.

Second of all, while extremely good ratings and extremely weak ratings (like 95% approval or 5% approval) can indeed be quite useful in predicting a show's superiority or inferiority to another series', generally speaking we don't see such extreme differences in scores for J-dramas and definitely not for taiga dramas!! Indeed, even the all-time lowest-scoring taiga drama was still ranked admirably above many other dramas that year. It scored poorly for a taiga, but did well overall.

Indeed, when we start calling "24%" extremely good and "16%" embarrassingly poor, that's when we know we're starting to make stuff up as we get caught in the little details. Why? Because like any rating, viewership ratings are determined by statistical polls with percent errors. These errors are usually in the 1 to 5% range. For example, 30%(±5%) of Kantou viewers may have watched Show A, while 26%(±5%) may have watched Show B. Does this prove that Show A is better than Show B? No. And even if they'd scored 30 and 25, or 30 and 20, it still wouldn't prove anything. A 30 could be 5 points inflated and a 20 could be 5 points too shallow. Both shows could be equal. Both shows could be genuine 25's. (Same argument but adjusted for ±1% would give us a Show A which achieved 26% viewership and a Show B which achieved 24% viewership being potentially identical to one another at 25%.)

Instead of me making numbers up, let's play with our cards on the table, shall we? I'll go ahead and provide the ratings from the DramaWiki for the last 10 taiga dramas (as well part of the current one):

Genryoku Ryoran: Episode 1 = 25.0, Average = 20.2, High = 28.5
Aoi Tokogawa Sendai: Episode 1 = 22.6, Average = 18.5, High = 22.6
Hojo Tokimune: Episode 1 = 19.6, Average = 18.5, High = 21.2
Toshiie to Matsu: Episode 1 = 26.1, Average = 22.1, High = 27.6
Musashi: Average = 16.7
Shinsengumi: Episode 1 = 26.3, Average = 17.4, High = 26.3
Yoshitsune: Episode 1 =24.2, Average = 19.4, High = 26.9
Komyo ga Tsuji: Episode 1 = 19.9, Average = 20.9, High = 24.4
Fuurin Kazan: Episode 1 = 21.0, Average = 18.7, High = 22.9
Atsu-hime: Episode 1 = 20.3, Average = 24.5, High = 29.2
Tenchijin: (still airing!) Episode 1 = 24.7, Low = 20.3, High = 26.0

What does this information tell us? If we assume ±1% for the ratings' accuracy (which I think is a very fair assumption as the real percent error is likely higher, perhaps 2 to 3%), then we find that Yoshitsune's average score is about equal to the following dramas': Genryoku Ryoran (20.2), Aoi Tokogawa Sendai (18.5), Hojo Tokimune (18.5), and Fuurin Kazan (18.7) within the first degree (±1 to just Yoshi); and Shinsengumi (17.4) and Komyo ga Tsuji (20.9) within the second degree (±1 to Yoshi and ±1 to them).

If we allow for no such assumptions and say that "the numbers are what they are, down to the very last decimal," then Yoshitsune is strictly rated superior to: Aoi Tokogawa Sendai, Hojo Tokimune, Musashi, Shinsengumi, and Fuurin Kazan: 5 of the 10 most recently-completed J-dramas! That means that Yoshitsune is, strictly speaking, in the upper 50% bracket!! It is ranked better than half of the taiga dramas of the last 10 years!! And yet you continue to debase it, all the while invoking these vague statistics.

If nothing else, I hope that this has proven to you and to everyone else on D-Addicts that you really shouldn't put too much faith in ratings when they are closer to each other than 5%. Ratings fall apart after that point, generally speaking. They're much more reliable when comparing grossly disparate entities. For God's sake, Yoshitsune is only 0.8% points behind Genryoku Ryoran whereas it's a full 2.0% ahead of Shinsengumi, and yet you seem to insist that it has more in common with Shinsengumi than with GenRyo. And I've no idea why! I don't care that you disliked Yoshitsune, because I understand that everyone has different tastes. But I do care that you keep replying to me with posts that deceive the forum into thinking that Yoshitsune was one of the biggest NHK ratings busts of all time when it clearly wasn't. Maybe it was one of the bigger financial failures? I don't know. All I know is, the numbers speak for themselves: Yoshitsune is strictly better than half and generally-speaking is only outclassed (i.e. >2% difference between their average viewership scores) by very few of the taiga dramas of the last decade.

And ratings be damned, I enjoyed it immensely. All I ask is that you try to be respectful of this difference in taste rather than constantly posting negative replies about Yoshitsune as a show, as a commercial venture for the NHK, etc.

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Post by groink » Mar 15th, '09, 21:52

The only thing I read in all of this is:

SuiginChou is a fandork and a zealot.

You should've stopped at your 2nd post, because a person on the Internet constantly defending a show or artist - especially in the level of detail and 3+ posts (including the Tenchijin article) - is a fandork. I can't argue with these kinds of people. I posted my ONE opinion (not including my 2009 very brief two-paragraph repeat,) and I don't expect to defend it. Matter of fact, it stood the test of time - almost three years of no responses before it pissed off a fandork newbie. Come to think of it, this is the Internet, therefore I AM able to be disrespectful of others' taste.

Please don't post a 4th post. That'll REALLY put up you there in fandorkism. And it would even embarrass me to see you do that to yourself (but unfortunately you will. It always does. You can't control yourself.)

--- groink
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Post by SuiginChou » Mar 16th, '09, 15:28

Please don't post a 4th post. That'll REALLY put up you there in fandorkism. And it would even embarrass me to see you do that to yourself (but unfortunately you will. It always does. You can't control yourself.)
This is one of the oldest tricks in the book. "If you don't reply, I get away with my bad behavior. If you do reply, I'll be able to gloat about being right."

Well by all means, groink, go ahead and gloat: because i'd like to draw the open-minded members' attention to the real reason why you've yet to reply to any of my counterpoints. It's because you don't have solid footing for your own poor arguments. I have made valid points with which I have disarmed your criticisms (particularly your criticisms of Yoshitsune's ratings). These are points for which you have not been able to think of any appropriate counter-argument; and so, embarrassed by this outcome, the best that you can do is to ask the community to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Sorry, groink, but I've just pulled away the curtain.

sinui
Posts: 7
Joined: Mar 19th, '09, 21:20

Post by sinui » Mar 19th, '09, 21:42

=) used to watch it then it started taking too much space on my HD.. hehe I need a external one. Love that actor tho and love historic dramas ;) changes a bit from the highschoo lovey dovey ones. anyway voted as "to see" not a must but if you got time, do watch it!

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