Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

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Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

Yes
36
24%
Not decided/Neutral
23
15%
No
92
61%
 
Total votes: 151

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shiny plastic
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Post by shiny plastic » May 8th, '06, 22:09

The general ignorance of history displayed by people at D-Addicts is disgusting.
Wait wait wait...I'm ignorant for knowing how it feels like to go through the immigration process? If you saw the long waiting lines of the Phillipinne embassy and see the disrespect these protestors are showing you'd see what I'm talking about.

Sometimes you don't need statistics and numbers to elaborate on your view. Rather through personal experiences.

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Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 22:27

shiny plastic wrote:
The general ignorance of history displayed by people at D-Addicts is disgusting.
Wait wait wait...I'm ignorant for knowing how it feels like to go through the immigration process? If you saw the long waiting lines of the Phillipinne embassy and see the disrespect these protestors are showing you'd see what I'm talking about.

Sometimes you don't need statistics and numbers to elaborate on your view. Rather through personal experiences.
Ah, you should have been in Sacramento when the Phillipine immigrants who drained the Sacramento River delta and converted it to usable farmland were murdered wholesale by a private army raised by the governor of California. You see, a law had been passed saying it was illegal for them to remain in California. They were supposed to flap their arms real fast and fly back to The Phillipines, but they didn't comply. They learned a valuable lesson about respect for the law.

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Post by chiyuffie » May 8th, '06, 22:32

Ughhh...I hate this issue. Basically I think they shouldn't be legal citizens of the US. Because of them, several Americans are unemployed because jobs have been taken away from them. In addition, illegal immigrants aren't all good people. I don't mean to say that I dislike them or anything, but there have been murders and robberies and no one can be identified because these people aren't in the databases. If we legalize them, well we already have a big population to support and more will just cause problems and it would encourage more immigration. I have so many views on this issue but I'm towards the "no legalizing of immigrants" because it's unfair for those who came here legally.

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Post by OvertheRainbow » May 8th, '06, 22:42

chiyuffie wrote:Ughhh...I hate this issue. Basically I think they shouldn't be legal citizens of the US. Because of them, several Americans are unemployed because jobs have been taken away from them.
I'm always curious when people say this, what kind of jobs are you talking about neccessarily? Aren't they illegal aliens? That means they wouldn't be able to get any decent jobs right? I don't really have a stand on this, I don't know enough to be able to put up a good arguement

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Post by scott12199 » May 8th, '06, 22:44

we should send them back and rent their service for even cheaper so we can get better price on apples. just kidding people hahahahaha

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Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 22:58

scott12199 wrote:we should send them back and rent their service for even cheaper so we can get better price on apples. just kidding people hahahahaha
You mean something like the maquiladoras?

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Post by groink » May 8th, '06, 23:01

pokute wrote:Groink, when you were quoting your statistics, were you aware that those numbers only represent people actively receiving unempoyment benefits? The actual number of people out of work is typically a factor of 4 larger. Frame the topic any way you like, I'll say what I want to regardless.
I covered the unemployment situation in my follow-up post when I discussed the unemployment information that is controlled on the State level. As for saying anything you want regardless of what the topic is, that is not proper debating protocol. Just like I said, the topic is:
shiny plastic wrote:Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?
So once again, stay within the lines of the topic at-hand.

--- groink

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Post by scott12199 » May 8th, '06, 23:01

veritati wrote:I believe that everyone has to take a stand on any issue. You should be either for or against something. There should be no middle ground. People should step out of their comfort zone and face the issue instead of being indifferent or apathetic.

I am a refugee from Vietnam, and this is my view:

Illegal aliens (one in every restaurant and deli in NYC) should NOT be granted legal status. Period. If you didn't come here legally, then you shouldn't be here in the first place. I believe it is the illegal aliens who are holding this country back and contributing to the regression of social progress. What do I mean? Well, I am against communism but have somewhat of a socialist mentality - influenced by Marx, Durkheim and Weber. Ideally, we would have a society where everyone contributes to society and lives comfortably (See Japan or Sweden). Poverty should be minimized or eliminated. Illegal aliens' willingness to work for nothing allows those in better positions economically to take advantage of the situation, thus creating an unleveled market economy. Why should I pay someone say $10 an hour when I can hire illegal aliens for $3 an hour? This situation preclude society from enhancing its overall status. Prices and inflation aside (irrelevant), if there are no illegal aliens, society's attitude towards each other would be a lot better. I know I can't live on $3 an hour so I'll pay you the livable rate of $10 an hour. This is only an example, but it illustrates the point that people will have to treat each other fairly and equally when there is a lack of alternatives. So in the end, everyone will be able to earn a competitive wage and the overall economy gets better since when people earn more they spend more. This will promote living by merits and hard work instead of social welfare. If you don't work hard, then it is your fault for your living situation.

In Japan, there are an abundant of jobs that pay rather well - these jobs might be considered excessive by current American attitude, but it is quite efficient. Everyone has opportunities and choices. Instead of having a gap between the rich and poor, poverty is minimized and everyone can earn a comfortable living. Even high school students can have good paying part-time jobs. And people don't look down on people regardless of jobs, unless they are homeless due to their own unwillingness to work. Why is Japan the world's second largest economy?

What I want to convey is that illegal aliens create an alternative or loophole in the overall scheme of society that allows people to take advantage of the situation, thus preventing society from progressing to the point where there is minimal poverty and equal standard of living.

By the way, there is no such thing as illegal immigrants. They are illegal aliens. immigrant entails that they are legal.
Why is Japan the world's second largest economy? because of their porn industry. They have one of the biggest porn industry over there, lolz. They are selling a porn dvd for 30 us dollars. If you do the math that is 30us x 110 yen=3300 yen... that is alot of money over there. lolz

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Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 23:02

OvertheRainbow wrote:
chiyuffie wrote:Ughhh...I hate this issue. Basically I think they shouldn't be legal citizens of the US. Because of them, several Americans are unemployed because jobs have been taken away from them.
I'm always curious when people say this, what kind of jobs are you talking about neccessarily? Aren't they illegal aliens? That means they wouldn't be able to get any decent jobs right? I don't really have a stand on this, I don't know enough to be able to put up a good arguement
Right. They wash dishes, toilets and floors. They dig ditches or harvest agricultural products, they care for peoples children and their elderly dependents, they do sewing piecework, and they do the jobs that are so dangerous that it would be too risky for an employer to have a documented person do it, like spraying insecticide in close quarters, bleaching silver out of photographic film with cyanide, working in commercial metal plating plants and in disposal of hazardous chemical waste.

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Post by OvertheRainbow » May 8th, '06, 23:16

pokute wrote:
OvertheRainbow wrote:
chiyuffie wrote:Ughhh...I hate this issue. Basically I think they shouldn't be legal citizens of the US. Because of them, several Americans are unemployed because jobs have been taken away from them.
I'm always curious when people say this, what kind of jobs are you talking about neccessarily? Aren't they illegal aliens? That means they wouldn't be able to get any decent jobs right? I don't really have a stand on this, I don't know enough to be able to put up a good arguement
Right. They wash dishes, toilets and floors. They dig ditches or harvest agricultural products, they care for peoples children and their elderly dependents, they do sewing piecework, and they do the jobs that are so dangerous that it would be too risky for an employer to have a documented person do it, like spraying insecticide in close quarters, bleaching silver out of photographic film with cyanide, working in commercial metal plating plants and in disposal of hazardous chemical waste.
Yea, I was thinking that so I don't think the unemployment rate is high because illegal aliens are "stealing" the jobs. They are jobs that most Americans don't want to do or think about which is why there are illegal aliens. The reason those people are unemployed is they are picky about jobs which is why employers are opted to chose illegal aliens because they don't care as long as they have a job. If you got a good education then why would you need to fight with the illegal aliens over jobs in the first place? Although, if you drop out or something then I don't know

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 8th, '06, 23:18

Perhaps if they didn't have illegal aliens to fall back on, employers would have to make it more financially lucrative for America's poorer class to scrub a toilet or pick strawberries.

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Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 23:30

I worked in a junkyard and in a warehouse when I was young. There were a lot of illegal aliens working in both those places. The work really sucked. The experience was enough to convince me to go back to school. The people I worked with would get fired if they got injured or sick. Women came to work pregnant and seriously ill (doing lightweight shipping tasks at the warehouse - try to imagine a pregnant woman yellow with jaundice and with open sores all over because work injuries didn't heal, and there was no first aid kit anyway), and one guy got his head caved in when a bucket of metal ingots fell on him... Since he could still walk they told him he was fired and gave him a ride somewhere... Serves him right for not having papers, right? Easy to dismiss him from your thoughts when you know he was an "illegal", right?

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Post by shiny plastic » May 8th, '06, 23:31

pokute wrote:
OvertheRainbow wrote:
chiyuffie wrote:Ughhh...I hate this issue. Basically I think they shouldn't be legal citizens of the US. Because of them, several Americans are unemployed because jobs have been taken away from them.
I'm always curious when people say this, what kind of jobs are you talking about neccessarily? Aren't they illegal aliens? That means they wouldn't be able to get any decent jobs right? I don't really have a stand on this, I don't know enough to be able to put up a good arguement
Right. They wash dishes, toilets and floors. They dig ditches or harvest agricultural products, they care for peoples children and their elderly dependents, they do sewing piecework, and they do the jobs that are so dangerous that it would be too risky for an employer to have a documented person do it, like spraying insecticide in close quarters, bleaching silver out of photographic film with cyanide, working in commercial metal plating plants and in disposal of hazardous chemical waste.
You act as if they're all so "good" and we're the bad guys trying to turn them away. Sorry to be rude but that's what the type of vibe getting off your post.

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Post by HyungKe » May 8th, '06, 23:34

I think it's pretty funny to hear Americans **** about immigrants, I mean the country was founded by immigrants. Hell the whole economy is based on imported labour, if it weren't for the immigrants US wouldn't be were it is today. It's a simple fact.

Why doesn't immigrants have the right to complain about their new home?
If the natives have a right to do so why shouldn't they?

This whole issue is just narrow mindedness and ignorance/borderline racism.
I say open all borders, unite! :salut:

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Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 23:35

bLaCkNbLuE wrote:Perhaps if they didn't have illegal aliens to fall back on, employers would have to make it more financially lucrative for America's poorer class to scrub a toilet or pick strawberries.
Hahahahaha! You've never been to the south!! You just pick on some citizens and make them feel like **** so they will work for peanuts. Take a vacation in rural Louisiana sometime and get to know the "poor white trash" if you want to see what happens when employers are forced to hire fine upstanding citizens!! There's always somebody else to push around.

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 8th, '06, 23:46

pokute wrote:
bLaCkNbLuE wrote:Perhaps if they didn't have illegal aliens to fall back on, employers would have to make it more financially lucrative for America's poorer class to scrub a toilet or pick strawberries.
Hahahahaha! You've never been to the south!! You just pick on some citizens and make them feel like **** so they will work for peanuts. Take a vacation in rural Louisiana sometime and get to know the "poor white trash" if you want to see what happens when employers are forced to hire fine upstanding citizens!! There's always somebody else to push around.
Thank you, for your fine insight, but I am originally from Louisiana, and I have family there that I visit often.

People can be pushed around no matter where they are from. That is not the issue here.

When you remove a workforce of tens of millions of illegal aliens from this country, not all the remaining unemployed or lower class Americans are going to be pushed around for peanuts when employers need to fill open positions.

It is the simple concept of supply and demand. When the demand for employees goes up, so will the salary employers will need to pay to get them.

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Post by Sana » May 8th, '06, 23:57

pokute wrote:I worked in a junkyard and in a warehouse when I was young. There were a lot of illegal aliens working in both those places. The work really sucked. The experience was enough to convince me to go back to school. The people I worked with would get fired if they got injured or sick. Women came to work pregnant and seriously ill (doing lightweight shipping tasks at the warehouse - try to imagine a pregnant woman yellow with jaundice and with open sores all over because work injuries didn't heal, and there was no first aid kit anyway), and one guy got his head caved in when a bucket of metal ingots fell on him... Since he could still walk they told him he was fired and gave him a ride somewhere... Serves him right for not having papers, right? Easy to dismiss him from your thoughts when you know he was an "illegal", right?
You should have called the cops on your boss. Too bad you didn't so the workers continued to get abused. Thumbs up to you.

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Post by pokute » May 9th, '06, 00:01

Unfortunately, market pressure doesn't have much impact where *unskilled* labor is concerned. If you can find a willing workforce in another country, zoom ,off you go.

The issue for those of us who are not employers of unskilled labor is whether you want to see your friends and neighbors treated like humans or like criminals. That is the issue for most people. Framing the issue in economic terms is to immediately dehumanise the people most directly affected. Right now where I live, the biggest threat to the economy is the need of insurance companies to show ever-increasing profits every year. But in California the insurance companies are the biggest contributors to political campaigns, so instead of people calling for the criminalisation of insurance execs, we get to decide the fate of some relatively helpless folks who do the menial tasks around town.

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Post by shiny plastic » May 9th, '06, 00:09

pokute wrote:I worked in a junkyard and in a warehouse when I was young. There were a lot of illegal aliens working in both those places. The work really sucked. The experience was enough to convince me to go back to school. The people I worked with would get fired if they got injured or sick. Women came to work pregnant and seriously ill (doing lightweight shipping tasks at the warehouse - try to imagine a pregnant woman yellow with jaundice and with open sores all over because work injuries didn't heal, and there was no first aid kit anyway), and one guy got his head caved in when a bucket of metal ingots fell on him... Since he could still walk they told him he was fired and gave him a ride somewhere... Serves him right for not having papers, right? Easy to dismiss him from your thoughts when you know he was an "illegal", right?
And who's fault was that that he took the job? us right?

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Post by scott12199 » May 9th, '06, 00:14

bLaCkNbLuE wrote:
pokute wrote:
bLaCkNbLuE wrote:Perhaps if they didn't have illegal aliens to fall back on, employers would have to make it more financially lucrative for America's poorer class to scrub a toilet or pick strawberries.
Hahahahaha! You've never been to the south!! You just pick on some citizens and make them feel like **** so they will work for peanuts. Take a vacation in rural Louisiana sometime and get to know the "poor white trash" if you want to see what happens when employers are forced to hire fine upstanding citizens!! There's always somebody else to push around.
Thank you, for your fine insight, but I am originally from Louisiana, and I have family there that I visit often.

People can be pushed around no matter where they are from. That is not the issue here.

When you remove a workforce of tens of millions of illegal aliens from this country, not all the remaining unemployed or lower class Americans are going to be pushed around for peanuts when employers need to fill open positions.

It is the simple concept of supply and demand. When the demand for employees goes up, so will the salary employers will need to pay to get them.

what you dont understand is that not all fields of work will get a hike in wage. For example, you will not see a mcdonald's employee go from 7 dollars to 10 dollars... what changes you will see will be directly related only to the agricultural business and dirt cheap labor jobs. The changes will be higher wages less workers higher prices for apples etc. lolz. The people you're hurting the most are families that are barely surviving if we legalize them. That is why i say leave the illegal immigrants alone. Why even bother with this issue. Were you complaining about illegal immigrants three months ago?

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 9th, '06, 00:28

scott12199 wrote:Were you complaining about illegal immigrants three months ago?
I've been complaining about illegal aliens for years.

I've lived in Colorado for a long time, which has a large Hispanic community, many (not all) of whom are illegal aliens.

This issue affects the quality of education American children receive in certain parts of my city, because there is such a large community of non-taxpaying, illegal aliens sending their children to our public schools. It puts that much more strain on a system that is flawed enough already. Then to make teachers take the extra time to spend on Spanish speaking children, taking learning time away from the American children of tax-paying citizens, is nothing short of theft. We are robbing our children when we allow this travesty to occur.

Not to mention that when I have to order my Big Mac en Español, it pisses me off!
Last edited by bLaCkNbLuE on May 9th, '06, 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Yukino Miyazawa » May 9th, '06, 00:30

Personally, I am against illegal immigration because it isn't fair to the people who actually became legal to come here. And I'm not saying that I don't see their side as well, but I side with the ones opposing it. I do have friends that have some illegal relatives that were in the marches and everything, but they respect why I'm upset about it.

On TV, there have been a lot of Mexican walk-outs from work or marches and protests, which I find highly unfair. As a side note, if you are protesting to be American wave an AMERICAN flag - not the flag from your country that you came from! And on the news, they're saying to legalize all the Mexican people but if we had to do that, then shouldn't we be fair to all ethnicities and not just them? What about the refugees from countries such as Rwanda or Sudan? Or the Asian and European immigrants who didn't have the convenience of having a country right beside them? It's just highly unfair to people such as my mother who worked hard to get to this country and then magically thousands or possibly a couple million get legalized just by coming in illegally.

Another thing which I am truly upset about is that people are saying that we are so strict with immigration when all I have to say is "hell no." We are not as strict as say like Japan. That is one hard country to get citizenship in.

That's my rant on it.

Oh! :glare: :salut: I have strong feelings about it, obviously because it's directly unfair to my family. But anyway...I saw something that was really funny. It's an Immigration debate with a twist. Check this out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM&search=Immigration%20debate
Image

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Post by scott12199 » May 9th, '06, 01:20

bLaCkNbLuE wrote:
scott12199 wrote:Were you complaining about illegal immigrants three months ago?
I've been complaining about illegal aliens for years.

I've lived in Colorado for a long time, which has a large Hispanic community, many (not all) of whom are illegal aliens.

This issue affects the quality of education American children receive in certain parts of my city, because there is such a large community of non-taxpaying, illegal aliens sending their children to our public schools. It puts that much more strain on a system that is flawed enough already. Then to make teachers take the extra time to spend on Spanish speaking children, taking learning time away from the American children of tax-paying citizens, is nothing short of theft. We are robbing our children when we allow this travesty to occur.

Not to mention that when I have to order my Big Mac en Español, it pisses me off!
Everybody has an equal right to learn and for you say that we shouldn't teach them is totally immoral. Blame the government for the poor educational system not the illegal immigrants. If the government builds more schools or gave your district more money to hire more teachers, wouldnt that fix the problem? There are easy quick solutions to your whining that our government is ignoring. Stop blaming the people and start blaming our system of government. imagine that 5 freaking billion bush used for the war in iran. wouldnt that 5 freaking billion be better served going towards our education?

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 9th, '06, 01:32

scott12199 wrote:Everybody has an equal right to learn and for you say that we shouldn't teach them is totally immoral. Blame the government for the poor educational system not the illegal immigrants. If the government builds more schools or gave your district more money to hire more teachers, wouldnt that fix the problem? There are easy quick solutions to your whining that our government is ignoring. Stop blaming the people and start blaming our system of government. imagine that 5 freaking billion bush used for the war in iran. wouldnt that 5 freaking billion be better served going towards our education?
It is not immoral to say that illegal aliens are stealing from tax-payers when they send their children to the schools we have to pay for our children to attend.

And the war is in Iraq, not Iran.... maybe you should go to school, yourself.

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Post by scott12199 » May 9th, '06, 01:57

bLaCkNbLuE wrote:
scott12199 wrote:Everybody has an equal right to learn and for you say that we shouldn't teach them is totally immoral. Blame the government for the poor educational system not the illegal immigrants. If the government builds more schools or gave your district more money to hire more teachers, wouldnt that fix the problem? There are easy quick solutions to your whining that our government is ignoring. Stop blaming the people and start blaming our system of government. imagine that 5 freaking billion bush used for the war in iran. wouldnt that 5 freaking billion be better served going towards our education?
It is not immoral to say that illegal aliens are stealing from tax-payers when they send their children to the schools we have to pay for our children to attend.

And the war is in Iraq, not Iran.... maybe you should go to school, yourself.
How are they stealing when in the future they will be paying for our grand children's education? Do you actually think that they are getting educated and running back to their home land to work? There are legal immigrants here that are punking the government for housing and welfare, why don't you take it out on them. Oh, wait, because they are legal so it's OK. Oh please.

You need to lay off the illegal immigrants and start focusing on the government.

They shouldn't get a free pass but we need them right now. LEAVE THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ALONE.

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 9th, '06, 02:01

scott12199 wrote:How are they stealing when in the future they will be paying for our grand children's education? Do you actually think that they are getting educated and running back to their home land to work? There are legal immigrants here that are punking the government for housing and welfare, why don't you take it out on them. Oh, wait, because they are legal so it's OK. Oh please.

You need to lay off the illegal immigrants and start focusing on the government.

They shouldn't get a free pass but we need them right now. LEAVE THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ALONE.
Don't get me started on welfare.

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Immigrants...

Post by gilly_187 » May 9th, '06, 02:09

Just letting someone have citizenship for touching the soil of any country is wrong. In the case of America, the main reason it is accepted is due to low costs with work. Many employers get off by paying the illegals low wages (lower than minimum wage; which is an American law). If all of the illegals become ciltizens it will be much harder for them to get jobs because they won't be able to work for less then minimum wage and they would have to pay taxes as well. Therefore it will not work it will just increase unemployment and population.

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Post by groink » May 9th, '06, 02:14

Here's one solution... For you disgruntled US citizens, why don't you give up your US citizenship and obtain citizenship in another country, such as Canada. And then let one of the illegal immigrants take your place? Some of you sound very unhappy about the country you live in, so maybe this is a good way to give your spot to someone who REALLY wants to dwell here. You get to live in a government of your likings, and the immigrant will get whatever the heck he wants out of the US. Win-win, ねえ???

--- groink

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Post by kood » May 9th, '06, 02:16

This is only a hot topic now due to Bush's administration diverting our concerns on the real issue: Bush and his regime.
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Post by Gir » May 9th, '06, 02:17

groink wrote:Here's one solution... For you disgruntled US citizens, why don't you give up your US citizenship and obtain citizenship in another country, such as Canada. And then let one of the illegal immigrants take your place? Some of you sound very unhappy about the country you live in, so maybe this is a good way to give your spot to someone who REALLY wants to dwell here. You get to live in a government of your likings, and the immigrant will get whatever the heck he wants out of the US. Win-win, ねえ???

--- groink
I think here most would pick Japan/Korea/China or such. :lol

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Post by scott12199 » May 9th, '06, 02:26

kood wrote:This is only a hot topic now due to Bush's administration diverting our concerns on the real issue: Bush and his regime.
Yup, his administration is under fire right now, so he's trying to get everybody else to concentrate on illegal aliens and not his administration.

Bush will go down as one of the stupidiest presidents ever elected into office. His dad was smart but what happen to him.

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Post by 2triky » May 9th, '06, 02:28

Gir wrote:
groink wrote:Here's one solution... For you disgruntled US citizens, why don't you give up your US citizenship and obtain citizenship in another country, such as Canada. And then let one of the illegal immigrants take your place? Some of you sound very unhappy about the country you live in, so maybe this is a good way to give your spot to someone who REALLY wants to dwell here. You get to live in a government of your likings, and the immigrant will get whatever the heck he wants out of the US. Win-win, ‚Ë‚¦???

--- groink
I think here most would pick Japan/Korea/China or such. :lol
i doubt it...china isn't known for its civil liberties or its abundant economic opportunities for the underclass...as for japan or korea, unless you can claim to be either in terms of ethnic origin....good luck...cuz you'll be shited on....

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mieko
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Post by mieko » May 9th, '06, 03:32

The problem with the illegal immigrant problem in the US which is mostly due to the hispanics pouring in from Mexico is that it's like pandora's box that's been open for decades and NOW the government wants to do something !?!?

The fact of the matter is that unless you legally immigrate into a country, YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW !!!!
What's the point of borders,laws & governments if i get up one day and say ...umm i'm gonna move to Japan and and live there for the rest of my life, raise a family, not pay taxes& get paid under the table... My ass would be bounced soo quick onto the next flight out it would make my head spin !!!!

Illegals take jobs away from legal residents and put strain on government resources suchas healthcare & education as they do not pay taxes that pay for the infrastructure. FACT PLAIN AND SIMPLE !!!!
The argument of Illegals taking jobs that regular Americans would not take is pure bullshit !!
If i was unemployed and had to put food on the table for my family and could'nt get anything better than picking crops and digging ditches then i'll start digging. If you're desperate fora job...you'll do it. I know i did in my early years... You do what you have to do.
ilegals have been doing jobs any LEGAL UNEMPLOYED AMERICAN can do and have been for decades !!!!

The problem now is that it's been unchecked for decades and there's millions there,
the consept of mass deportation of millions of Illegals is not feasable.

What they should do is the ones that are now in the US should be given say a temporary
work visa (which means they would have to pay taxes as well) for periods of say 6 months-3 years and then they should be made to return to their home country.

Those that do not make their presence known for registration, should be deported immediately without any due process... they're not citizens and should not be given any
leniency whatsoever if they can't even follow the rules.

The US/Mexico border should be toughened up 10 fold... The money spent on prevention
will go a long way to stop feeding the long standing problem.

Now... Back to watch Oishii Propose Ep 2 :)

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shiny plastic
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Post by shiny plastic » May 9th, '06, 03:37

The point with the other side is trying to make with the whole "America doesn't want those jobs. They're lazy" is pretty much prejudice.

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Buck
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Post by Buck » May 9th, '06, 03:54

Yup, his administration is under fire right now, so he's trying to get everybody else to concentrate on illegal aliens and not his administration.

Bush will go down as one of the stupidiest presidents ever elected into office. His dad was smart but what happen to him.
I think the only reason why it's on fire is due to the fact that he nearly screwed up with things in Iraq so he's trying to make it up by making it better in "that way"
Happiness is not so much in having as sharing. We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give - Norman Macewan

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Post by HyungKe » May 9th, '06, 06:16

bLaCkNbLuE wrote:.... maybe you should go to school, yourself.
You should study your own countrys economy.
mieko wrote:Illegals take jobs away from legal residents and put strain on government resources suchas healthcare & education as they do not pay taxes that pay for the infrastructure. FACT PLAIN AND SIMPLE !!!!
Acctually it's not uncommon for illegals to pay taxes, so your argument is pretty void.

Illegal or not, immigrants is the backbone of American economy. Have you guys wondered why your government has left the border controls so loose for years?
Well, the state/economy makes a **** load of money of the immigrants, belive it or not.

This thread scares me, are some Americans really this ignorant?

edited for your pleasure
Last edited by HyungKe on May 9th, '06, 07:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Sana
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Post by Sana » May 9th, '06, 06:22

HyungKe wrote:
bLaCkNbLuE wrote:.... maybe you should go to school, yourself.
You should study your own countrys economy.

Illegal or not, immigrants is the backbone of American economy. Have you guys wondered why your government has left the border controls so loose for years?
Well, the state/economy makes a **** load of money of the immigrants, belive it or not.

This thread scares me, are all Americans really this ignorant?
Maybe you should read what the hell this thread is about before putting in your two cents. Nobody is against immigration. What most of us are against is ILLEGAL immigrants demanding things left and right. Just because people step on some other country's soil doesn't mean you are a citizen and entitled to all the benefits.

Based on your username, I'm guessing you're Korean. Did you know America just accepted some North Korean refugees? Does South Korea look poor to you?
Last edited by Sana on May 9th, '06, 06:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Buck » May 9th, '06, 06:24

For your information, Americans are not ignorant. Just because someone doesn't know how the economy work or knows sufficient information means that they're ignorant. They don't know how it works, so what? Explain it to them, make them understand. We all have our own constructive opinions based on our knowledge. This is why this topic is open for discussion to debate, not for it to turn into war.

So I ask you to keep out what you said, because what you have said may have offended alot of Americans. For starters you offended me, but hey I easily forgive people.
Happiness is not so much in having as sharing. We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give - Norman Macewan

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Post by groink » May 9th, '06, 06:42

HyungKe wrote:Illegal or not, immigrants is the backbone of American economy. Have you guys wondered why your government has left the border controls so loose for years?
Well, the state/economy makes a **** load of money of the immigrants, belive it or not.
C'mon, folks! Do I have to say this every hour? No one is against immigration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The issue is whether or not the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal. Just about every industrialzed country in the world limits the flow immigrants entering its territory. The US does it. South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong... They're NO DIFFERENT! Leaving out jobs, money, etc. out of the scenario, the number-one issue at hand is the tracking of all human beings in a given territory. That is the purpose of immigration. You think the US is so special?????

- In Canada, processing of Stage 1 for permanent residence as a non-Canadian citizen is 7 to 8 months at a MINIMUM.

- In Japan, it takes 90 days for you to obtain permission to enter their country for anything other than just to visit. A working visa allows you to stay in Japan for only a few months, which then you must apply for yet another visa (entertainer Ito Yuna, a friend of mine, must do this.) You must then live there for a total of 5 years before you can even consider permanent residence as a non-Japanese citizen.

- In South Korea, you as a tourist are allowed to enter the country and stay for up to 30 days. When staying for longer than 30 days, or your status changes from tourist to something more long-term, you must apply for an alien registration card. Immigrants staying longer than the period authorized without an alien registration card are subject to fines.

I can provide dozens more immigration requirements for countries around the world. Again, the key to a legalized immigration system is so that every human being in a given country can be tracked. If you think tracking people is a bad thing, then that's a totally different argument that would require a different thread. Having people walking about in your country without any form of accountability is basicaly a security risk.

--- groink

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Post by HyungKe » May 9th, '06, 06:55

@Sana: In this context, by immigrants I meant the illegal ones. I thought that would be clear, then again english isn't my native language (obviously). And no, I'm not korean, nor asian at all acctually. It's just an internet handle resembling my nickname.

@groink: See above. Also, of course immigrations needs to be limited and controlled. What makes the situation in USA special is the fact that the government has had loose border controls and in effect allowing more illegals to enter the country. These people has since been used as an under payed work force, some even pay taxes even though they're not citizens. So complaining about it now is a bit late, it should have been done before they became as many as they are today (I think we all can agree that it's quite alot). Also, if they we're such a nuisance to the system don't you think the government would have responded with actions instead of being so passive?

@Buck: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. But perhaps my choice of words was a bit offensive.
However judging from a number of post in this thread I think the question is quite valid. Illegal immigration is probably one the least important questions for USA as it is today.

Still people are complaining about it instead of more important issues. The arguments are:
They are taking our jobs - To this day I've never seen any studies supporting this claim, only the contrary.

They are straining the system - This might be true, in individual cases. But as a whole immigration (yes, the illegal kind as well as legal) generates money for the system. Hell, some illegals even pay taxes since the IRS is forbidden to share information with immigration officials.

It's illegal - The only valid point I've seen so far. However one could argue that this is a circular argument. (It's illegal, therefor wrong. And since it's wrong it's illegal)

But again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. That wasn't my intention.

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Post by Flounder » May 9th, '06, 07:26

for those who said illegal aliens benefit our country, please read the article below:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm

also, illegal aliens and their supporter tend to emphasize that these people pay tax to our country. how much tax can they contribute to our government when their income level is either at the poverty level or below it?

regarding the new proposal to this immigration law (i.e, legalizing illegal aliens), follow the logic here:

if you can prove that you have broken our current law for 2-6 years, you are eligible to apply for citizenship if not permanent residency.

it's only in America where the illegals demand for their rights. In Mexico, illegals are being treated subhumanely and yet they by that I mean the Mexican government and their people criticized that our immigration law is harsh. Correct me if I'm wrong but illegal aliens are considered criminals if they are caught.

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Post by rockon23 » May 9th, '06, 07:35

Sorry, but I don't buy a loss of jobs which have gone overseas as a valid counter-argument against illegal immigration. Jobs in the IT sector & other white-collar jobs that pay extremely well continue to be outsourced to India at such at an alarming rate, yet it seems Americans only seem to cry about jobs that they have little interest for. This phenomenon will continue, iIllegal immigrants or not... I think it's a good reminder that Americans need to be better prepared as developing countries start making their mark on the international economy. But that's a whole other issue entirely.

Okay, returning to ILLEGAL immigration, I think the issue is one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things. In other words, the government can try as hard as they want to keep out other people from coming in, but how can they possibly manage to find all the people who have already settled here? On the other hand, if they were to grant amnesty, there will unmistakenly be a new flood of immigrants wanting in on the action. I don't see a compromise happening anytime soon either.

Sidenote: Do the "country super star" minutemen piss anyone off besides me? I just hate it when people act like they're above the law... If they're so keen on protecting their country, why don't they just join the army and get shipped off to Iraq to fight!
for this country's oil, that is! Sorry, I couldn't help myself...

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Post by veritati » May 9th, '06, 09:07

HyungKe wrote:@Sana: In this context, by immigrants I meant the illegal ones. I thought that would be clear, then again english isn't my native language (obviously). And no, I'm not korean, nor asian at all acctually. It's just an internet handle resembling my nickname.

@groink: See above. Also, of course immigrations needs to be limited and controlled. What makes the situation in USA special is the fact that the government has had loose border controls and in effect allowing more illegals to enter the country. These people has since been used as an under payed work force, some even pay taxes even though they're not citizens. So complaining about it now is a bit late, it should have been done before they became as many as they are today (I think we all can agree that it's quite alot). Also, if they we're such a nuisance to the system don't you think the government would have responded with actions instead of being so passive?

@Buck: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. But perhaps my choice of words was a bit offensive.
However judging from a number of post in this thread I think the question is quite valid. Illegal immigration is probably one the least important questions for USA as it is today.

Still people are complaining about it instead of more important issues. The arguments are:
They are taking our jobs - To this day I've never seen any studies supporting this claim, only the contrary.

They are straining the system - This might be true, in individual cases. But as a whole immigration (yes, the illegal kind as well as legal) generates money for the system. Hell, some illegals even pay taxes since the IRS is forbidden to share information with immigration officials.

It's illegal - The only valid point I've seen so far. However one could argue that this is a circular argument. (It's illegal, therefor wrong. And since it's wrong it's illegal)

But again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. That wasn't my intention.
This post is ignorant and ill-informed on many levels. I want to say that if you don't live in the US, you shouldn't even respond to the question. But I believe in free speech so I won't say anything about that.

1. When you say illegal aliens pay taxes, which taxes do you mean? If you want to say sales tax, then I agree since there is no way around that. But the important income tax and other taxes they do not pay. For one, you need to have a SS# to pay those taxes and illegal aliens do not have it. And since they are illegals, they will not "surface" themselves for fear of detection and deportation so it's ridiculous to say that they willingly pay taxes. Also, employers are required to pay taxes as well, but if they hire illegal aliens they can avoid that. So on two fronts, illegal aliens are not contributing to the economy/society. In other words, they are not paying their share but can use all the resources and infrustructures.

2. Do you realize how big and long America's border is? America is not letting them enter. It's just that it's nearly imposible to guard thousands of miles of open borders. And this is land and sea. So think about it. I am sure you can't even patrol the border around your own house 24/7 without someone able to get into your house. So because America can't guard its border, does that give anyone a legal right to sneak in?

3. You say that illegal immigration is not an important issue, but it is very important. The economy is not doing so well and one of the reasons affecting it is illegal aliens. They take money out of the economy and not contributing to it. We can go deeper into this but that'd be a long discussion.

a. They ARE taking jobs no matter how you justify it. It's a fact, and please see my previous post on page 6 for an explanation.

b. They ARE taking from the system. When you use resources and infrustructures without paying for it, it's taking or stealing. Legal immigration is good, but illegal immigration only takes away; they do NOT generate anything for the overall economy. One thing you fail to realize is that most illegals make money and then send back to their countries to support their families. That's taking money out of the US economy.

c. They are illegal. What circular argument? It's straight and to the point in any language. This is a legal and not a moral dicussion. There is no circular logic here. You should look up what "illegal" means.

My first post on page 6 was a direct response to the question by the OP without reading anyone else's views. But I did go back and read each and every post and have written down some thoughts which I will share in a later post. I will go further in details then.
Live life to the fullest.

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Post by HyungKe » May 9th, '06, 10:40

veritati wrote:1. When you say illegal aliens pay taxes, which taxes do you mean? If you want to say sales tax, then I agree since there is no way around that. But the important income tax and other taxes they do not pay. For one, you need to have a SS# to pay those taxes and illegal aliens do not have it. And since they are illegals, they will not "surface" themselves for fear of detection and deportation so it's ridiculous to say that they willingly pay taxes. Also, employers are required to pay taxes as well, but if they hire illegal aliens they can avoid that. So on two fronts, illegal aliens are not contributing to the economy/society. In other words, they are not paying their share but can use all the resources and infrustructures.
If you want to pay tax and don't have a SS# you can get a tax number from the the IRS. But this is quite old, perhaps they have removed this?
About 366,000 returns were filed using individual taxpayer identification numbers in 2001, according to IRS data from that year, the most recent information available. People with the tax numbers reported wages of almost $7 billion and paid almost $305 million in taxes, according to the IRS.
veritati wrote:2. Do you realize how big and long America's border is? America is not letting them enter. It's just that it's nearly imposible to guard thousands of miles of open borders. And this is land and sea. So think about it. I am sure you can't even patrol the border around your own house 24/7 without someone able to get into your house. So because America can't guard its border, does that give anyone a legal right to sneak in?
Of course I'm not saying USA should guard every inch of the borders, which would be impossible. My point was that the government has really done anything activly to control the illegal immigrants. They are around 9 million or so probably more, if the government really cared and saw it as a big problem they wouldn't have let that group get so big. Of course illegal immigrants will always exists but with a more effective policy/police/whatever their numbers wouldn't be so large.
veritati wrote:3. You say that illegal immigration is not an important issue, but it is very important. The economy is not doing so well and one of the reasons affecting it is illegal aliens. They take money out of the economy and not contributing to it. We can go deeper into this but that'd be a long discussion.
There are other far more important causes for the decline in economy China, Iraq etc. Illegal aliens is just a drop in an ocean of trends. And yea, this is a long discussion by it self, so let's just leave at that.
veritati wrote:a. They ARE taking jobs no matter how you justify it. It's a fact, and please see my previous post on page 6 for an explanation.
Well, you are ignoring the fact that we, especially in USA, are living in a class society. Even if you would remove the illegal aliens and give their jobs to the poorer classes that doesn't mean that the payment for those jobs would rise. Removing a group of people doesn't erradicate the class society, the poor would still be poor.
veritati wrote:b. They ARE taking from the system. When you use resources and infrustructures without paying for it, it's taking or stealing. Legal immigration is good, but illegal immigration only takes away; they do NOT generate anything for the overall economy. One thing you fail to realize is that most illegals make money and then send back to their countries to support their families. That's taking money out of the US economy.
Simply working contributes to society, and some of them do pay tax. But I agree a lot of people send their money over seas but I hardly belive that that sum has a significant effect on the massive economy of America.
veritati wrote:c. They are illegal. What circular argument? It's straight and to the point in any language. This is a legal and not a moral dicussion. There is no circular logic here. You should look up what "illegal" means.
Yup that's why I said it was the only valid point I've seen so far.
However I did point out as a side note that a law cannot justify itself, ie laws are not always right that's why they get changed, removed or added. But this is more of a philosophical discussion.
veritati wrote:My first post on page 6 was a direct response to the question by the OP without reading anyone else's views. But I did go back and read each and every post and have written down some thoughts which I will share in a later post. I will go further in details then.
I'll make sure to read it. :)

And as a note, because I feel this got a little side tracked. What I was arguing for is amnesty for the illegals (with restrictions, not criminals etc..) simply because the way (rather lack of) USA has handled the issue over the past decade.

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Post by fbi888 » May 9th, '06, 11:08

this issue boils down to money, the cha ching - how much are you willing to pay. it is quite sad that the US spends billions of $ to overthrow foreign governments all for the sake of security and yet can not spare a dime to support and improve on the system to facilitate efficient immigration. lets not forget why we have terrorism - because of the US disregards of other's culture all for the pursuit of money disguise in the form of democracy. so please, don't even try to make this a philisophical, moral, or ethical debate (which makes me want to vomit) when it's all about money - disgusting.

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Post by Prof Plum » May 9th, '06, 13:37

It is about money or more precisely the interaction between two economies and the problem that causes.

I must admit to not knowing too much detail about the USA's problem or its plans but as I see it this is the issue. Lots of illegal immigrants living in the US:
Essentially they are economic migrants - they are not asylum seekers - they just want a better life than they had at home. Because they are classed as criminals they are disenfranchised from normal society and the state; they are not able to contribute through taxes, they are not allowed to vote nor are they afforded the protection of the state.
And though many of them are honest, law abiding non-citizens in every other way they presence cause problems for the citizens.
Chiefly their illegal status leaves them open to exploitation - from employers who underpay them, from landlords who badly house them and from people smugglers to whom they pay their passage and so on. I would guess that large proportion of this involves organised crime. So a black economy exists not only involving them but with citizens who illegally support them.
This subculture interacts and influence normal society in many ways not all of them negative.
While this underground society is small it doesn't pose much of a problem. But at some point it must reach a size where it does become a problem. Not only through loss of taxes but from the increasing social problems - (I would imagine this is not an affluent society, at least, not for many.) Also there are likely to be wars erupting between the organised crime gangs.
So what are the options for the government:

Do nothing. But the citizens are complaining about all these illegal immigrants and the social problems they bring - low wages, unemployment, criminal activities. The government might lose the next election - they have to be seen to do something.

Make better borders. That will help with new immigrants crossing the border but the ones that are here keep "doing the sex" and "making the baby." It's slowing down the increasing population but not solving the problems long term.

Put them in prison? We'll they still aren't paying taxes and now the state is paying for their keep. Then what do you do with them when you let them out? Back to square one.

Round them up and ship them home? That might be OK for the ones who have just come across the border but what about those who have been here years and have no home to return to? What about those who have married and had children with legal citizens? It will be expensive to carry out, it will be difficult to administer and judge and it will enrage the until now passive members of the immigrant community. There will be blood on the streets.

Give them an amnesty and make them citizens. That cures the taxation and helps with the social problems and gets rid of the illegality and so takes them out of the realm of the criminal elements but a lot of people might not like it. The legal immigrants, especially the ones that didn't get here, they won't like that. We'll that's OK they don't get a vote until they get here (if they get here) but the new legalised, and no doubt highly grateful, citizens do.

Cynicism aside, there seems to be only one good solution in that case - the amnesty.
One other problem I would think is gaining the support of "normal" US citizens. (Particularly the ones who see America as white country that allows a few foreigners to live in it. After all they wouldn't like to see the current indigenous population become overrun by the foreign invaders like the previous indigenous population was. But that is a different subject completely..)

Many "normal" US citizens would see it as getting rid of the criminality by getting rid of the crime. But its not quite the same as making robbery legal and emptying the prisons then saying,- "hey everybody we've reduced crime!" The citizens will still lose their property to criminals.
Laws exists to protect society. They do this, in one way, by making rules which control immigration; so that foreigners can't exploit the wealth of the society or become a citizen of the society without permission of the state.
But if things are as I describe maintaining a division between an immovable and growing immigrant subculture and normal society the law is failing to protect society. By changing the law and removing that division it is protecting it. Which would not be the case if, for example, robbery was legalised.


So, if my understanding is correct, the answer should be yes - to better protect society.
(I suppose the government just has to communicate this better if it needs the peoples support. I'd guess many citizens who live in the US which do not have first hand experience of the problems simply see it as foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs and our women (or men.) Simple xenophobia.)
I do go on!

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Post by shiny plastic » May 9th, '06, 18:50

I love the fact the educated are coming together in a group debate. Whether or not you're in favor of this issue, I have a new found respect for a lot of the people on this forum.

God bles the 1st ammendment.

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Post by groink » May 9th, '06, 20:12

HyungKe wrote:@groink: See above. Also, of course immigrations needs to be limited and controlled. What makes the situation in USA special is the fact that the government has had loose border controls and in effect allowing more illegals to enter the country. These people has since been used as an under payed work force, some even pay taxes even though they're not citizens. So complaining about it now is a bit late, it should have been done before they became as many as they are today (I think we all can agree that it's quite alot). Also, if they we're such a nuisance to the system don't you think the government would have responded with actions instead of being so passive?
Where are you from exactly? And why did you generate the idea that the US is "weak" on immigration and loose on its borders? A bunch of chicanos sneaking through a secret tunnel from Mexico to Arizona is NOT a sign of the US lacking on border security. You even mentioned earlier that it is impossible to seal off every inch of the border (Calfornia, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, and several states separating the US from Canada) The foundation of your arguments are based on the "weak on border" theory. Just mentioning this out of thin air and then riding with it is not good debating practice. You must provide for us information on how you came to this conclusion, otherwise we'll all take it as something you came up with on your own. Build your "weak on border" theory up with concrete data, and THEN you can start spawning your PPOV (personal point of view) based on the foundation you developed.

The only "fool-proof" border system I can see right now is what they have at the DMZ, separating South Korea from North Korea. I don't think you'll ever see THAT in the US. That's borderline Berlin Wall material. So I don't buy the idea that because millions of illegal immigrants snuck into the US because of some "flaw" in the US system they should receive amnesty or legal status. Your PPOV of providing these illegals amnesty is a reactive solution. I look at it totally different - the chicanos should've KNOWN that entering the US without proper processing is an illegal offense in US law. Starving families, no money, wanting a new life, etc. provides no sympathy from me. That's my proactive view - they should not have crossed the border illegal IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Let's test your weak security/amnesty theory. Let's say the last employee leaving a bank leaves the front door and safe door open. Burglars check the door to find that it is unlocked. So they sneak in and steal money out of safe. A few days later, they get caught. Based on your theory, we should let these criminals go because it was the fault of the employee and the bank for allowing them to enter in the first place. The sympathy level is the same here - the criminals have starving families. They have no jobs. They can't even get a job at a 7-Eleven. Are you going to give these criminals amnesty, too? If so, then you might as well give all hackers amnesty for breaking into Microsoft-based servers because Windows is weak on security.

--- groink

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Post by Genmai_cha » May 9th, '06, 20:41

I'm all in for immigrant rights.
There are so many crappy jobs that I would never fill in and if they want them, let them have 'em. 8)

[url=http://portland.craigslist.org/etc/152298182.html]Would you ever be an Adult Sanitation engineer?[/url] :pale:

I think not. Let them live the American Dream. :cheers:
:argue:

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Post by HyungKe » May 9th, '06, 23:18

How is my origin relevant to this discussion?

Well I think the numbers speak for themselves you have around 9 million illegals, in 2004 the INM deported 188,000 people, according to wikipedia. By current estimates, between 4,000 and 10,000 illegal immigrants arrive to USA everyday (according to usbc, personally I belive this might be a bit exaggerated). Sure you have a large border and an enormous pressure on it, still the illegal immigrant population isn't contained at all. Example, let's say you deport 250,000 illegals every year, each day 500 illegals arrive and you have a current population of ca 9,000,000 illegals. Let's do some simple math, y is number of illegals, x is number of years.
y = (365*500-250000)*x+9000000
That would leave you with 7650000 illegals after 20 years. Of course this is a severe simplification and most likely quite incorrect but perhaps now you understand a little more of my point of view.

As for you bank robbery theory, it's to me completely out of context. You're applying logic for a large group onto a individual example. Also you missing my point. I could perhaps agree with it if this was also true;
The country where the bank is has a law against robbery, however it is also known that 9 million other bank robberers has not been convicted over the past decade. Nor have the been activly chased by the police. Would it then be just to apprehend the new robberers? Perhaps, that's a moral dilemma. Would it solve the problem? Certainly not.

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Post by groink » May 9th, '06, 23:52

HyungKe wrote:As for you bank robbery theory, it's to me completely out of context.
The reason why the bank robbery analogy fits is because the following is the same in both situations:

1. The person committing the crime KNEW that what he was doing is illegal. You cannot convince me that the aliens had NO idea that crossing the border without proper processing is illegal in the US. The alien more likely paid money to get him and his family into the US. Even those folks who hopped the fence in New Mexico knew they were breaking the law. Absolutely 100-percent they know they're breaking the law. The US law has no sympathy or passion for lawbreakers. Their personal situation means nothing.

2. The sympathy point... Most activists who believe these illegal aliens should be allowed amnesty are playing the sympathy card. The alien isn't well off for X reason, so let's give him a break and let him stay in the US. f*** HIM and f*** everyone he dragged in. Send his ass and his family back to Mexico because, once again, HE BROKE THE LAW. You commit any crime in the Unites States and you either serve time in prison or you get deported.

3. The idea about putting blame on the system for lack of security, which is what you are doing with the "weak on border" security point. The number of people involved has absolutely no point in this. And yes, if there were 9.0 million burglaries, you bet your ass our law enforcement agencies will hunt down EVERY SINGLE ONE of those lawbreakers and bring them to justice. It is written IN LAW that entering the United States without proper processing by US Immigration or the border patrol is a FEDERAL OFFENSE, and you will be prosecuted if you do such a thing. Same thing with breaking into banks... And even raping women when they're drunk - dropping the guard gives lawbreakers ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE to break the law. Your "Well, millions of people are doing it" is the exact same stupid argument that the anti-RIAA and anti-MPAA people are making. Everyone breaks the law to the point where the government has absolutely no choice but to legalize it. FORGET IT! Every single offense is considerd ONE OFFENSE. Using your numbers, there have been 9.0 million offenses of illegal entry into the United States.

Overall, the difference between you and I is that you're letting your emotions get involved with your decision making on this. I'm just look at the letter of the law and, like the court system in the US, I'm sticking to it. Sympathy for these people - by interpretation of federal law I'm not allowed to use sympathy when making a decision like this.

--- groink

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Post by Prof Plum » May 10th, '06, 00:36

groink wrote:
HyungKe wrote:As for you bank robbery theory, it's to me completely out of context.
The reason why the bank robbery analogy fits is because the following is the same in both situations:

1. The person committing the crime KNEW that what he was doing is illegal. You cannot convince me that the aliens had NO idea that crossing the border without proper processing is illegal in the US. The alien more likely paid money to get him and his family into the US. Even those folks who hopped the fence in New Mexico knew they were breaking the law. Absolutely 100-percent they know they're breaking the law. The US law has no sympathy or passion for lawbreakers. Their personal situation means nothing.

2. The sympathy point... Most activists who believe these illegal aliens should be allowed amnesty are playing the sympathy card. The alien isn't well off for X reason, so let's give him a break and let him stay in the US. f*** HIM and f*** everyone he dragged in. Send his ass and his family back to Mexico because, once again, HE BROKE THE LAW. You commit any crime in the Unites States and you either serve time in prison or you get deported.

3. The idea about putting blame on the system for lack of security, which is what you are doing with the "weak on border" security point. The number of people involved has absolutely no point in this. And yes, if there were 9.0 million burglaries, you bet your ass our law enforcement agencies will hunt down EVERY SINGLE ONE of those lawbreakers and bring them to justice. It is written IN LAW that entering the United States without proper processing by US Immigration or the border patrol is a FEDERAL OFFENSE, and you will be prosecuted if you do such a thing. Same thing with breaking into banks... And even raping women when they're drunk - dropping the guard gives lawbreakers ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE to break the law.

Overall, the difference between you and I is that you're letting your emotions get involved with your decision making on this. I'm just look at the letter of the law and, like the court system in the US, I'm sticking to it. Sympathy for these people - by interpretation of federal law I'm not allowed to use sympathy when making a decision like this.

--- groink
I cant argue with the illegality of it. The state says its agains the law so its against the law. But I think that amnesty is being considered is that it is just too expensive to solve the problem through a judicial process. Large scale internment and processing to deport all the illegal immigrants is too expensive compared with the cost of letting them stay. It may be cheaper to let them stay and concentrate on securing the borders to stop the problem getting worse. But ultimately US citizens have the choice. If in the next election a presidential candidate comes forward and promises to send them all home he will be asked how he intends to pay for it. Demobilise the airforce or put 5c on taxes? Maybe not election winning ideas.
(Obviously, gas chambers and extermination camps would be a much cheaper option - but we can assume the new right is not that far right.)

The US has already done it once so they may do it again. The Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986 gave 2700000 illegal immigrants a right to stay and the possibility of citizenship. The problem is 4 times as many have arrived since.

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Post by HyungKe » May 10th, '06, 01:02

@goink

1. Yes I never said otherwise, I fail to see how this is relevant. Especially by your logic an offense is and offense no matter the circumstances, right?

2. I don't have much sympathy for illegal aliens in USA because frankly it doesn't really concern me. But was annoys is the inconsistency by your official institutions. If you have immigration laws follow them, at least try full hearted. This has not been done for the past decade and look where it has gotten you. Realizing the problem now is a wee bit to late. Grant the illegals citizenship and start over fresh with a policy that acctually works.

As a side note, laws are not written in stone. One should question authority, including laws, in a free state. But nevermind, let's not get dragged in to a diffrent debate.

3. Yes exactly, consistency! However not even a fraction the 9 million illegals who have lived and worked in your country for years will probably ever be prosecuted.

The fact that millions are doing it doesn't jutify it, I agree and have never said otherwise. What it shows is that the current policy doesn't work.

My emotions have little to do with my views on this matter, what bothers me is that people are trying to cling to system that clearly doesn't work. It's not going to solve the problem. You on the other hand seem to get quite agitated by this issue judging from your latest post.

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Post by tdkyo » May 10th, '06, 01:23

Genmai_cha wrote:I'm all in for immigrant rights.
There are so many crappy jobs that I would never fill in and if they want them, let them have 'em. 8)

[url=http://portland.craigslist.org/etc/152298182.html]Would you ever be an Adult Sanitation engineer?[/url] :pale:

I think not. Let them live the American Dream. :cheers:
I would like to counter your view by stating the fact that most Americans are taking two or more part time jobs to get by daily. Most of the "secure" employment corporations (especially in the manufacturing industry) have been cutting off work force. Many recently educated graudate students are finding themselves without work. Although many illegal immigrants have been touting the idea that there are certain American jobs that Americans would not take because of the "degrading nature", we must realize that if the pay of those jobs are back to a reasonable standard, Americans will do it for the money. Remember that it was the hiring of illegal immigrants that alllowed many employers to lower wages on many job industries.

I am all for charging all business with a crime equivent of a felony and strong national border in the south. I am still pondering what we should do with the current illegal immigrants we have in this nation, but I am opposed to giving them any type of amnesty status in the future.

Any comments? :-)

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Post by groink » May 10th, '06, 01:37

It's cool. I think we've settled down on our foundations. I do actually agree that the system that is currently in place does not work. However, I still believe every one of them are fugitives of the law. And once they are found, they will be sent back to wherever they came from.

I also agree on someone else's post about the cost of sending these people back. Because they are not US citizens, they don't have to be processed by the court system. Simply, all you need to do is throw them on a bus or ship and send them back.

As for immigration being an issue in the next Presidential race... Yes, it will be a major issue. But it was also a big issue in 2004, as well as 2000. And although Pres. Bush didn't have a great solution to the immigration problem, neither did Senator Kerry. Kerry's idea was to provide amnesty for every illegal immigrant that can prove to the government exactly how much time he spent in the US, and how much time he spent working. That to me is impossible to prove because 1) there is no documentation, and 2) the worker's employers wouldn't exactly come forward and say, "Yes! Cheech did work for me, even though I didn't claim him in my income taxes and paid him $1.00 per hour and placed him in the worst of working conditions." So you'd have to provide amnesty for the US companies, too. And for you Bush bashers - these border problems existed during Clinton's eight years in office. Indeed Bush didn't improve anything, but the problems already existed before he ever set foot in the White House in 2001.

So that's why I don't believe in providing amnesty for these people. Like the 1986 Act, you have to put your foot down and say *BAM* this is the month/day/year we're going to mark as Amnesty Day. But how are you going to determine what day that will be? Like the problem of pulling out of Iraq on MM/DD/YY, you can't just openly say that on a such-and-such date any illegal aliens who are already on US soil will receive amnesty. Even the slightest give-away of the amnesty date will cause even a larger surge of aliens to flood into the US so that they can make that date. Anytime you set a date on an event like this, the problem increases ten-fold.

The government screwed up, so they have to bite the bullet and spend the billions of dollars finding these people and sending them back. And at the same time, provide even stronger enforcements on the borders - including the use of the National Guard and other State-run defense agencies.

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 10th, '06, 13:50

groink wrote:It's cool. I think we've settled down on our foundations. I do actually agree that the system that is currently in place does not work. However, I still believe every one of them are fugitives of the law. And once they are found, they will be sent back to wherever they came from.

I also agree on someone else's post about the cost of sending these people back. Because they are not US citizens, they don't have to be processed by the court system. Simply, all you need to do is throw them on a bus or ship and send them back.

As for immigration being an issue in the next Presidential race... Yes, it will be a major issue. But it was also a big issue in 2004, as well as 2000. And although Pres. Bush didn't have a great solution to the immigration problem, neither did Senator Kerry. Kerry's idea was to provide amnesty for every illegal immigrant that can prove to the government exactly how much time he spent in the US, and how much time he spent working. That to me is impossible to prove because 1) there is no documentation, and 2) the worker's employers wouldn't exactly come forward and say, "Yes! Cheech did work for me, even though I didn't claim him in my income taxes and paid him $1.00 per hour and placed him in the worst of working conditions." So you'd have to provide amnesty for the US companies, too. And for you Bush bashers - these border problems existed during Clinton's eight years in office. Indeed Bush didn't improve anything, but the problems already existed before he ever set foot in the White House in 2001.

So that's why I don't believe in providing amnesty for these people. Like the 1986 Act, you have to put your foot down and say *BAM* this is the month/day/year we're going to mark as Amnesty Day. But how are you going to determine what day that will be? Like the problem of pulling out of Iraq on MM/DD/YY, you can't just openly say that on a such-and-such date any illegal aliens who are already on US soil will receive amnesty. Even the slightest give-away of the amnesty date will cause even a larger surge of aliens to flood into the US so that they can make that date. Anytime you set a date on an event like this, the problem increases ten-fold.

The government screwed up, so they have to bite the bullet and spend the billions of dollars finding these people and sending them back. And at the same time, provide even stronger enforcements on the borders - including the use of the National Guard and other State-run defense agencies.
I agree with groink, here. Our government does need to just pony up the dough and send the illegal aliens back to where they came from.

I am a fervent Bush supporter, and I don't blame him for the problem being as big as it is; but the fact that nothing has been done to improve this situation is a disappointment that I have with his administration.

And to those who say that the U.S./Mexico border cannot be properly secured, we have been helping the Koreans secure the 38th parallel for 50 years. It can be done, its just that no one wants to spend the money to do it.

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Post by Eyahnah » May 10th, '06, 14:25

One message that really bothered me was the whole "In God we Trust" bit of that guy's letter. As an atheist, am I not a true citizen of this country? As immigrants, coming with their own beliefs, are they not true citizens? This country may have been founded (excluding the native americans of course) on Christian values but that is only because it was the popular majority. If our ancestors came here to escape religious persecution, we should make sure those who are coming here can find the same escape.

Also, we can say, "oh our ancestors came here and were immigrants," but they did it legally. Perhaps what we should do is make it a bit easier for those who desire to come into THIS country, not OUR country, to do so. By encouraging others to become tax paying citizens, we can improve our economy and society.

Most importantly, we have to remember that everyone is simply human, unalienable rights...not just for those in this country legally.

Don't forget that I'm just speaking out of my Tush, but..let's try to be nice to people OK?

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Post by Flounder » May 10th, '06, 14:47

For those who insistently asserted that illegals are taking jobs that American people don't want. If you were them would you take a job that cannot support yourself let alone supporting your family. If those job were offered at a minimun pay level, I think people will at least want to give a try.

Let say an engineering position which I assume is one of the most desire job position in America is being paid by corporate America for a measle $1/ hour, would you then accept the job offer? If you don't and the illegals do because clearly you can't make a living out of $1/hour, then would your assertion apply here, illegals are taking jobs that American ppl don't want?

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Post by Genmai_cha » May 10th, '06, 15:28

tdkyo wrote:
Genmai_cha wrote:I'm all in for immigrant rights.
There are so many crappy jobs that I would never fill in and if they want them, let them have 'em. 8)

[url=http://portland.craigslist.org/etc/152298182.html]Would you ever be an Adult Sanitation engineer?[/url] :pale:

I think not. Let them live the American Dream. :cheers:
I would like to counter your view by stating the fact that most Americans are taking two or more part time jobs to get by daily. Most of the "secure" employment corporations (especially in the manufacturing industry) have been cutting off work force. Many recently educated graudate students are finding themselves without work. Although many illegal immigrants have been touting the idea that there are certain American jobs that Americans would not take because of the "degrading nature", we must realize that if the pay of those jobs are back to a reasonable standard, Americans will do it for the money. Remember that it was the hiring of illegal immigrants that alllowed many employers to lower wages on many job industries.

I am all for charging all business with a crime equivent of a felony and strong national border in the south. I am still pondering what we should do with the current illegal immigrants we have in this nation, but I am opposed to giving them any type of amnesty status in the future.

Any comments? :-)
[/spoiler]

I don't think those type of jobs would ever raise their pay to standard and even if the dirty job pay you something decent I still wouldn't do it. If you want to get closer look to reality then you should apply for that job and see what the pay is. Should we have a wage guess here? :lol

BTW- [url=http://www.alternet.org/rights/24927/]Check out some of the top 10 worst jobs in US[/url]

I agree with you on graduate students having a hard time finding a job but I have to disagree with you that the cause of that problem relate anyway to the illegal immigrants. I mean come on now... go to your local fast food restaurant and see if you find any collage grads there. If everybody got a flipping hamburger degree do you think you can still get a burger for $3 or less? I don't think so.

I'm not too concern about the immigrants taking over degrading jobs. What concerns me the most is that a lot of big corporation are packing up their bags and move eastward. If they can hire someone with the same education like a master degree for a cheaper price then I don't see a reason for not doing so.
:argue:

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Post by Flounder » May 10th, '06, 16:24

Genmai Cha,

If there werent any illegal aliens around to do those jobs, then it forces the corporation to raise the pay that will atrract the citizens to do the job. they need those position to be filled as much as the skillful position. there are a lot of unskilled people in this country who are not illegal and will try those jobs if the pay was in accordance with the state minimum pay law. since there are illegal who are willing to work at any salary, why would the coporation not exploit them because of their immigration status and why would they hire the legal ppl in this country? therefore by supporting the illegal immigrations, you are supporting their exploitation.

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Post by Prof Plum » May 10th, '06, 16:56

groink wrote: I also agree on someone else's post about the cost of sending these people back. Because they are not US citizens, they don't have to be processed by the court system. Simply, all you need to do is throw them on a bus or ship and send them back.
Of course I was forgetting, Non-us have no human rights ! Guantanamo 2?

So how will it work do you think?

Goon squad: Hablo espanol?
Man: Si
Goon squad: Get on the bus Jose!
(Man: Que?
Goon squad: Get on the bus Jose! (but in Spanish this time))

Judgment without trial harks back to the Japanese American Imprisonment during World War II.

But seriously, though there wouldn't have to be a full trial by jury you would first have to find them, lock them up, have a judicial review before you transport them. This all costs a great deal of money. A Washington think tank put it at 41 billion per year over 5 years - greater than the Department of Homeland Security's current budget.
If US citizens think its worth it fine - it is their money.
Though they are *illegal* immigrants they are not quite as immoral as you make out. They move because the borders are lax and people are offering them work. The employers know their status and know that they can exploit it. Largely, the immigrants come simply to work and get a better life not to rape, steal and kill.
It might be simpler and more cost effective to tighten up the borders, debrief the now legal citizens then prosecute the traffickers and organisers and tackle the employers and potential employers through fines and legislation.

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Post by nikochanr3 » May 10th, '06, 17:38

I think anyone who is in this county illegally at this point should be made legal if they can prove they have no / limited criminal record and have been working and contributing. It's the practical thing to do, and its the nice thing to do. These "Days without immigrants" miss the point. We could very easily do without all the illegals. An unskilled worker costs more money to the govt. then he contributes. That's not why we should do it. We should do it because it's the right thing to do, to support people in our country working hard and who want to work. :salut: If you want to be a contributing member of the US, and are actually contributing already, then lets make it official. Welcome aboard! :cheers:

BUT, for that to work we need to make things right going forward. Just anyone can't come in going forward. That makes the issue of making the current illegals legal moot. Why have any laws at all if that's the case? And this is turning into a very race oriented thing. The US is not mexico. It can't become Mexico, even in areas, to placate illegals. That's just silly, but that's almost the tone of the rallies. Let's sing the national anthem in spanish! Return the homeland to Mexico signs. Good luck drumming up support for actual reform. :whistling:

Like most issues lately, this has become so messy and politicized that most people just talk bullshit, no one addresses any real problems with practical solutions.

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Post by shiny plastic » May 10th, '06, 18:27

In a sense, we shouldn't even be arguing about this if we didn't have such sympathy for these people. The law is the law. No one can just bypass and feel they can get the same rights as every legal american citizen. It's not right. You're just condoning others to do the same thing.
Image

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Post by mieko » May 10th, '06, 19:40

[quote="HyungKe"]If you want to pay tax and don't have a SS# you can get a tax number from the the IRS. But this is quite old, perhaps they have removed this?
[quote]

What planet are you from !? I'm a Canadian, and i live in Canada but i'm a translator
and most of my work comes from the US. And for me to get work & paid i needed
to get a TIN (Tax Identification Number) from the IRS. So i'm fully legal to get contracts
outside of the US... I did work in L.A. in the early 90's..and guess what ? I had to
get a Green Card... Why ? TO LEGALLY WORK & PAY TAXES IN THE US !!!!????

I'm sure the loads of chicanos i would see hawking Oranges on the roadside did'nt
have no Greed Card or TIN ... I mean the IRS are real sticklers for getting their tax revenue but they're not going to give tax numbers to illegals...They would bounce their asses to the INS for deportation.

HyungKe... I don't think you're even on this continent or do i think have any direct
experience with living & or working in the US.

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Post by mieko » May 10th, '06, 20:18

groink wrote:
As for immigration being an issue in the next Presidential race... Yes, it will be a major issue. But it was also a big issue in 2004, as well as 2000. And although Pres. Bush didn't have a great solution to the immigration problem, neither did Senator Kerry. Kerry's idea was to provide amnesty for every illegal immigrant that can prove to the government exactly how much time he spent in the US, and how much time he spent working. That to me is impossible to prove because 1) there is no documentation, and 2) the worker's employers wouldn't exactly come forward and say, "Yes! Cheech did work for me, even though I didn't claim him in my income taxes and paid him $1.00 per hour and placed him in the worst of working conditions." So you'd have to provide amnesty for the US companies, too. And for you Bush bashers - these border problems existed during Clinton's eight years in office. Indeed Bush didn't improve anything, but the problems already existed before he ever set foot in the White House in 2001.
Remember in 04', Bush courted the "Legal" Hispanic vote with the promises legalizing
illegals..and it worked for him.. Many hispanics pulled their traditional support for the Dems and gave it to the Republicans. Past admistrations, both Democrat & Republican
have done little to correct the problem. It's unfortunate that Bush is using another
volitile domestic issue like Illegals to detract from the quagmire that is known as Iraq.

I think it's more of a distraction than anything else... The fact is that millions of illegals
have come into and still do into the State for decades and the government unfortunately
has done little about it. Bush isn't responsible for the Illegal problem.. but he's responsible
for his adminstrations policies that have severely weakened the Economic powerhouse
that the US was once was...and now he's trying to take an issue like Illegals as a ploy
to show that "he's doing something" about severe domestic problems now that his
socal security/tax reforms are pretty much dead in the house.

But it all goes back to the original point... If you want to legally immigrate and have skills
to offer the country you're moving to...great ! welcome aboard.
But if you break the law and illegally enter the country to "make a better life" you
are a criminal... pure and simple
Unfortunately, nothing much will really be done about it...

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Post by scott12199 » May 10th, '06, 21:12

Genmai_cha wrote:
tdkyo wrote:
Genmai_cha wrote:I'm all in for immigrant rights.
There are so many crappy jobs that I would never fill in and if they want them, let them have 'em. 8)

[url=http://portland.craigslist.org/etc/152298182.html]Would you ever be an Adult Sanitation engineer?[/url] :pale:

I think not. Let them live the American Dream. :cheers:
I would like to counter your view by stating the fact that most Americans are taking two or more part time jobs to get by daily. Most of the "secure" employment corporations (especially in the manufacturing industry) have been cutting off work force. Many recently educated graudate students are finding themselves without work. Although many illegal immigrants have been touting the idea that there are certain American jobs that Americans would not take because of the "degrading nature", we must realize that if the pay of those jobs are back to a reasonable standard, Americans will do it for the money. Remember that it was the hiring of illegal immigrants that alllowed many employers to lower wages on many job industries.

I am all for charging all business with a crime equivent of a felony and strong national border in the south. I am still pondering what we should do with the current illegal immigrants we have in this nation, but I am opposed to giving them any type of amnesty status in the future.

Any comments? :-)
[/spoiler]

I don't think those type of jobs would ever raise their pay to standard and even if the dirty job pay you something decent I still wouldn't do it. If you want to get closer look to reality then you should apply for that job and see what the pay is. Should we have a wage guess here? :lol

BTW- [url=http://www.alternet.org/rights/24927/]Check out some of the top 10 worst jobs in US[/url]

I agree with you on graduate students having a hard time finding a job but I have to disagree with you that the cause of that problem relate anyway to the illegal immigrants. I mean come on now... go to your local fast food restaurant and see if you find any collage grads there. If everybody got a flipping hamburger degree do you think you can still get a burger for $3 or less? I don't think so.

I'm not too concern about the immigrants taking over degrading jobs. What concerns me the most is that a lot of big corporation are packing up their bags and move eastward. If they can hire someone with the same education like a master degree for a cheaper price then I don't see a reason for not doing so.
I agree with everything you said.

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Post by scott12199 » May 10th, '06, 21:19

HyungKe wrote:
bLaCkNbLuE wrote:.... maybe you should go to school, yourself.
You should study your own countrys economy.
mieko wrote:Illegals take jobs away from legal residents and put strain on government resources suchas healthcare & education as they do not pay taxes that pay for the infrastructure. FACT PLAIN AND SIMPLE !!!!
Acctually it's not uncommon for illegals to pay taxes, so your argument is pretty void.

Illegal or not, immigrants is the backbone of American economy. Have you guys wondered why your government has left the border controls so loose for years?
Well, the state/economy makes a **** load of money of the immigrants, belive it or not.

This thread scares me, are some Americans really this ignorant?

edited for your pleasure
Not all of us but majority of us are, lolz

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Post by nikochanr3 » May 10th, '06, 21:40

The argument that the illegal immigrants are beneficial to our country financially is not valid . Lower income people are a drain - they take more than they give. Infrastructure, benefits, etc. We shouldn't be doing this becuase its financially beneficial. We should do it because its RIGHT. There are people living in this country as contributing individuals who have been doing so for a long time, and not only would getting rid of them all would be near impossible, it would be mean spirited. Let's take care of these people, make them more in the mainstream, and let them have a better change, which would in turn give us more of a chance of them being higher income, and paying more than they receive. (Note: There's a higher theshold that you think of a person being a + to the economy. Our govt' spends a shitload of money per person. )

Note: I think we need to tighten our borders more going forward. I think (going forward) we need to be really clear about what penalties are and punish people as we say. But punishing people who have been living here for a long time is just cruel.

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Post by Prince of Moles » May 10th, '06, 22:00

For those of you that use the illegal immigrants are breaking the law argument:

While I am sympathetic to this line of argument, I also don't buy it completely. We ought to consider the possibility that the law itself might be wrong. Remember that there were no passports or laws about entering the U.S. until the late 19th century.

In fact in the case of US-Canada there were no border controls until the 1920s.
In the case of Ellis Island, the Europeans who came to America in boats did not have passports or visas. They just arrived, were inspected, quarantined if they were ill, and then let in.
Chinese, Japanese, and Filipinos who came to America from the Pacific in the nineteenth and early twentieth century also came with no passports or visas. No central processing center like Ellis Island. They just got off the boats at various ports.

It is only recently (basically after WW2) that countries started to issue passports and require everyone who traveled to have them.

I'm not saying that the current passport and visa system is total crap. But just because it's the law doesn't mean that it's always morally correct or that it is functioning well.

Just think of the morally wrong laws that were on the books until recently: Laws against interracial marriages, laws against sodomy (actually this is still here in some states, if you commit oral or anal sex in Alabama you can be sent to jail for 1 year or fined $2,000).

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Post by pokute » May 10th, '06, 22:07

@Prince of Moles - Remember who your audience is here... Nobody here ever breaks any laws... Not ever, because they are all upstanding citizens who believe in swift punishment for ALL acts of lawbreaking (by other people not members of their own circle of acquaintance). Why, they can see the finger of GOD pointing out the evildoers even as they contemplate the act. Read the posts in this thread and tell me I'm wrong.

scott12199
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Post by scott12199 » May 10th, '06, 23:07

free the illegal immigrants... let them spread their wings and fly back to their own country. free the illegals!!!!!

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Erliana2
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Post by Erliana2 » May 10th, '06, 23:56

mieko wrote:
HyungKe wrote:If you want to pay tax and don't have a SS# you can get a tax number from the the IRS. But this is quite old, perhaps they have removed this?

What planet are you from !? I'm a Canadian, and i live in Canada but i'm a translator
and most of my work comes from the US. And for me to get work & paid i needed
to get a TIN (Tax Identification Number) from the IRS. So i'm fully legal to get contracts
outside of the US... I did work in L.A. in the early 90's..and guess what ? I had to
get a Green Card... Why ? TO LEGALLY WORK & PAY TAXES IN THE US !!!!????

I'm sure the loads of chicanos i would see hawking Oranges on the roadside did'nt
have no Greed Card or TIN ... I mean the IRS are real sticklers for getting their tax revenue but they're not going to give tax numbers to illegals...They would bounce their asses to the INS for deportation.

HyungKe... I don't think you're even on this continent or do i think have any direct
experience with living & or working in the US.
Actually illegals can apply for a temporary tin, butusually it's the illegals who have kids that need to go to school (otherwise why would they apply?). I guess that's another benefit of illegals, these people are keeping the social security system alive by contributing to it despite the fact that they won't get anything out of it.

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Mythrel
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Post by Mythrel » May 11th, '06, 00:00

I think there are some great points however I don't agree with the "Since its against the law" arguement. Just because something is a law doesn't mean it is correct. You would have to put way to much trust into the legal system to believe that the goverment should make your choices. I am not saying some laws should not be laws, but if the law is impractical then it only makes the problem bigger not smaller. The law obviously isn't being implemented properly. I don't agree with just automatically granting amesty persay but I also don't agree with just cramming them on a bus and shipping them out because that doesn't solve anything either.I just hope someone in office figures something out because this just won't go away. :salut:
Im making you aware. That if you dont like me well I dont care. Ill be exactly who I am and if you got a problem with it. Well thats your problem, man.

koulen
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Re: Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

Post by koulen » May 11th, '06, 00:04

shiny plastic wrote:
koulen wrote:
shiny plastic wrote:Since this is very much a multi-cultural forum with people of great divesity. I wanted to ask a topic like this since I'm sure someone here knows someone who has at least immigrated to the states or they themselves have immigrated.

I find it somewhat unfair since my family had to wait for years and loads of paperwork just to be able to earn their right to live in the land of opportunity. I don't see why someone who steps on american soil feel they must have the same rights as legal citizens.

I'd like to hear your opinion on it since it is a very touchy subject.

Don't think too much. Your country does have laws, right? What for?
Me? I live in the US :blink

We have laws to protect the people. Well, supposed to be anyways.

Laws are protected legal citizen. NOT ILLEGAL!!!

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Sana
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Post by Sana » May 11th, '06, 00:17

Erliana2 wrote:
Actually illegals can apply for a temporary tin, butusually it's the illegals who have kids that need to go to school (otherwise why would they apply?).
Do illegals have enough money to buy property which gets taxed to fund the schools? I dunno but those guys loitering around the neighborhood don't look rich enough for that. Is Eau de Urine the new craze?
I guess that's another benefit of illegals, these people are keeping the social security system alive by contributing to it despite the fact that they won't get anything out of it.
Welcome to the under 40 club.

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