Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

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Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

Yes
36
24%
Not decided/Neutral
23
15%
No
92
61%
 
Total votes: 151

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shiny plastic
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Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

Post by shiny plastic » May 6th, '06, 03:23

Since this is very much a multi-cultural forum with people of great divesity. I wanted to ask a topic like this since I'm sure someone here knows someone who has at least immigrated to the states or they themselves have immigrated.

I find it somewhat unfair since my family had to wait for years and loads of paperwork just to be able to earn their right to live in the land of opportunity. I don't see why someone who steps on american soil feel they must have the same rights as legal citizens.

I'd like to hear your opinion on it since it is a very touchy subject.

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bLaCkNbLuE
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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 6th, '06, 03:37

There are immigration laws in place for a reason. They exist to protect the American people. I have no problem with people immigrating and becoming U.S. citizens by following the laws of the land. I do, however, have a problem with essentially pardoning the millions of aliens who are here illegally by granting them automatic citizenship. These are non-taxpaying criminals, in my opinion.

I recently received the following in an email. Take it however you like. :

THIS WAS IN A TAMPA NEWSPAPER

This is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa, FL Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
However...... the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct! " crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women.......on Christian principles.............founded this nation..... and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because.....God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so! But once you are done complaining....... whining..... and griping....... about our flag....... our pledge...... our national motto........or our way of life...I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other Great American Freedom......

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE!

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nalika
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Post by nalika » May 6th, '06, 03:45

I think the author of the article is a little too harsh...what's the point of calling American a multi-culture country when everyone is expect to speak only English...
Last edited by nalika on May 6th, '06, 04:09, edited 1 time in total.
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bLaCkNbLuE
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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 6th, '06, 03:46

Perhaps, but I think he makes a valid point.

koulen
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Re: Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

Post by koulen » May 6th, '06, 03:47

shiny plastic wrote:Since this is very much a multi-cultural forum with people of great divesity. I wanted to ask a topic like this since I'm sure someone here knows someone who has at least immigrated to the states or they themselves have immigrated.

I find it somewhat unfair since my family had to wait for years and loads of paperwork just to be able to earn their right to live in the land of opportunity. I don't see why someone who steps on american soil feel they must have the same rights as legal citizens.

I'd like to hear your opinion on it since it is a very touchy subject.

Don't think too much. Your country does have laws, right? What for?

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luith
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Post by luith » May 6th, '06, 03:54

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!
Speaking of being politically correct... We speak English AND other languages. Not everyone in the US speaks only English. But I do believe America should have one common language of English, and the people who migrate here should understand some form of it. It's really irritating how some of the people who move into my community expect me to be able to speak Spanish to them at work. They get angry when I don't. Haha. Gah.
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shiny plastic
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Re: Should the illegal immigrants of the U.S be legal?

Post by shiny plastic » May 6th, '06, 04:16

koulen wrote:
shiny plastic wrote:Since this is very much a multi-cultural forum with people of great divesity. I wanted to ask a topic like this since I'm sure someone here knows someone who has at least immigrated to the states or they themselves have immigrated.

I find it somewhat unfair since my family had to wait for years and loads of paperwork just to be able to earn their right to live in the land of opportunity. I don't see why someone who steps on american soil feel they must have the same rights as legal citizens.

I'd like to hear your opinion on it since it is a very touchy subject.

Don't think too much. Your country does have laws, right? What for?
Me? I live in the US :blink

We have laws to protect the people. Well, supposed to be anyways.

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enkhee
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Post by enkhee » May 6th, '06, 04:28

what about people who came here years ago following their parents? kids who had no choice? students who couldn't do anything about their legal status?

non-tax paying criminals? i pay tax. lots of us pay tax. actually most of us do. and receive practically nothing in return. we don't complain when we do all the hard work. please don't judge us harshly for wanting at least half the rights people around us take for granted.
AN EYE FOR AN EYE LEAVES THE WHOLE WORLD BLIND

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Buck
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Post by Buck » May 6th, '06, 04:48

Damn I had a comment but I closed the window! Bleh..

I voted yes because I believe illegal immigrants should be made legal. If you think closely about it and how it'll effect our society, it would be a good thing. Legal jobs would be given and at the same time one important issue would be placed onto them, and I'm sure you all have to do it -- taxes. Taxes is the key that drives our American economy where we're able to fix roads, rebuild schools, construct new buildings and etc etc. By giving illegal immigrants their right to membership in the US, they have the responsibility of having to pay their taxes. If so, that's their price for living in the "land of opportunity." While living in the land of opportunity, it does have it prices.

Secondly, illegal immigrants. Why were they made illegal in the first place? They simply escape their country from Cuba, China, Russia, where-ever in the world to come and live on American soil without any proper ID or paperworks. They escaped their country because they saw how great American as become. The morality of the story is that they just want to be free, and if we're asking them to leave our country, we are basically asking them to go back to where they belong to. America has a great deed of good history in the past with helping and liberating countries from communism, restoring peace and justice along with democracy along with all other good things you can think of, so why not let these fellow illegal immigrants grant the status of Legal? Is there really any reason why we should arrest them and make them go back to their country facing trial?

I speak out of my own opinion, and I'm open for constructive criticism. And I'll gladly add to what other people have to say. Bottomline folks, please don't get offended to what I had to say.
Happiness is not so much in having as sharing. We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give - Norman Macewan

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shiny plastic
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Post by shiny plastic » May 6th, '06, 04:54

Secondly, illegal immigrants. Why were they made illegal in the first place? They simply escape their country from Cuba, China, Russia, where-ever in the world to come and live on American soil without any proper ID or paperworks. They escaped their country because they saw how great American as become. The morality of the story is that they just want to be free, and if we're asking them to leave our country, we are basically asking them to go back to where they belong to. America has a great deed of good history in the past with helping and liberating countries from communism, restoring peace and justice along with democracy along with all other good things you can think of, so why not let these fellow illegal immigrants grant the status of Legal? Is there really any reason why we should arrest them and make them go back to their country facing trial?
I very much respect your opinion as I can see where you're coming from. But you have to take into consideration those immigrants from other countries who have waited years and years to just be able to come here. They had to go through the paperwork, tests, and the interrogation of the U.S Embassy. I know so many people who have waited for 12 years just to get here and believe they earned their right to stay in this country the right way. They were patient, they sought out opportunities to get here.

The question is, why do these people who crossed the pacific ocean, snuck through our country illegally be able to cut in line of those who are still constantly working hard to get here. I'm not saying "shove them back where they came from and never let them come back" sort of deal. What I'm saying is, shove them in the back of the line so those who actually waited will be the ones who righteously earned their spot.

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Crazy Penguin
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Post by Crazy Penguin » May 6th, '06, 04:58

You do need one official language that is used and taught commonly. Considering the fact that the US once used to be a British colony with, mainly, former British citizens it's only logic to assume that they use English as the official language (just like Australia or New Zealand). So, people who want to live there should be able to communicate in that language. In fact, I think it should be a condition of being allowed to live there.

I actually think that's one of the advantages the US has over the EU. The EU has no official language. Everything the EU agrees on has to be translated into every single language of the member states. Frankly, I'm not surprised that nothing ever really works in the EU.

Germany already went that far and made a new law (it was actually on TV yesterday). People, who want to immigrate, are forced to visit a German course and will have a test on the subject. I think it's a good idea. After all, in Germany people speak German. Period. That's the "state language". What's the point of trying to live there if you don't even understand the language of the country? There are other tests attached to it, like stuff on German history, etc, I think that's BS. Frankly, I'm sure that most Germans wouldn't know all answers to those other tests either. They're thinking to do the same in Austria, though and I'm fully for it.

If I was to live in the UK, people there would expect me to speak English. Same if I was to go to France, I'd need to speak French. If I'd go to live in Japan, I have to learn Japanese. I think that's something people need to learn and to understand. I can't expect to speak German if I'd move to Spain. 'Sides, I think it's rather impolite and a lack of respect towards the country that would graciously allow me to live there and that country's population if I'm not capable of speaking that country's language.

As for the illegal immigrants. Well, their definition says it all, doesn't it? They broke the law by entering the country. Why should they be turned into legal citizens when they already broke the law? Laws exist for a reason. It sucks for them that they have to go that far, but laws ARE laws. Austria ships off illigal immigrants to so called "save 3rd countries" (like Italy or Hungary) right away.

I could enter the US illegally, too, even though I'm in Austria and getting to the US legally wouldn't be hard. It's possibly.

Final point. I think the US are still a multi-cultural country. Just take it's history. You can find anything there. Germans, Russians, English, French, Spanish, Italians, Slovaks, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Indians, etc. It's a melting pot of nearly everything. Of course, they all call themselves Americans today, but, ultimately, the country's population is one giant mixture of everything.

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shiny plastic
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Post by shiny plastic » May 6th, '06, 05:05

It’s a fairly complex and dificult issue. Our immigration laws a little antiquated and its quite clear based on the sheer number or illegals that we don’t have control of our borders. We need a tougher law to control it and we should all demand it. I am all for anyone coming to this country legally , but I really have a problem with these groups marching to demand their “rights”. I'm of the impression that if you're not a legal citizen of this country, you really have no rights here. I mean they should receive the basic rights and dignity that we should give to all human beings regardless of status but just because you have set foot within the borders of this country does not make you entitled to every benefit and right the American citezens have.I don't think we should reward those who came here illegally with amnesty and citizenship, regardless of how may years they’ve been here. There are proper channels for legal immigration and since they chosed to bypass that then they do not deserve to be here or work here at all.

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angelemei
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Post by angelemei » May 6th, '06, 05:30

My parents got their citizenship the difficult way; my brother and I were 4 and 5 when we moved here and then they never had any more children, so we had to go through the grueling process of getting the "Green Card" to be considered a permanent alien. My parents came here as graduate students... so it took them a total of 13 years to get the Green Card. I had then waited 5 years later (since I was an adult by then) to apply for a US citizenship. Many people everyday do the same thing. America grants asylum to many immigrants who come here from a hostile country, so they do show some compassion in that aspect. But people who cross the border for a better life? My parents came here for that reason too, but if they can do it legally, then so can these others who come here from across the border.

No immigrants ever settled here without some hardship in the first place, if you look back into the history of this country. The American Indians came from who knows where (possibly Asia in theory) and had to deal with the British takeover of the land. The British people sent their own kind to the colonies as a punishment in their time. These people settled and had to fight the British for the independence of this country. Other immigrants have been looked down upon for generations. Then there are those who were practically forced to live on this soil and toiled to get their civil rights. The Chinese (and other Asians) came here to seek their "gold mountain" and were spit upon and many had to go through difficult and demeaning immigration procedures (at a certain point, the men weren't even allowed rights to bring their families over... they were here as a workforce and that's that). Today, all we ask for is that immigrants (albeit, they must pay quite a sum for all the damn application fees) fill out paperwork, pay taxes for a certain number of years and show that their contributions to the US society is meaningful and that they aren't criminals, take a US citizenship test (i.e., know how many stripes and stars are on the flag, and who's the president, and write a sentence in English etc.) and legally get sworn in as a citizen.

I mean, sure there could definitely be reforms in the whole immigration institution, but it shouldn't be a free pass for everyone to join. I think that laws are necessary, or the U.S. will truly be a free-for-all and take-but hey, don't give back!

It is an honorable thing to obtain a citizenship knowing that you earned your right to be called an American. I think that should be the same for everyone, especially since Americans are constantly fighting for equality of rights. If they're going to start giving out free passes, then they better grant citizenship to legal immigrants as well... and If you think about it, we'd be encouraging illegal immigration to the U.S. from now on if this is the case.
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Schala
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Post by Schala » May 6th, '06, 06:11

Are any of us even really American? I mean, really the only people that were originally here are the Native American Indians. The people who colonized here were from Britain. So really, America is a diverse country of people from other countries.

Wait...I forgot where I was going with that..........


Anyway, the whole language thing never bothered me. I know some people who get really pissed because they see Spanish on almost everything now. (Walk into a Wal-Mart and all the signs include Spanish too. Well, at least where I live they do.) Go to Japan, and a lot of their signs have English on them as well. *shrug* What's the big deal? If you speak English, then don't pay attention to the Spanish. Everyone feels more comfortable speaking in their native language, and since a lot of Spanish speaking people make up the U.S., I think it's a good idea to have Spanish on things as well. Otherwise, it just increases that language barrier.

I work in an environment with so many people of different cultures, including Spanish and Indians (as in, from India). Many of them do not speak English well. You walk into the bathroom, and they're all chatting in their native language. Yet, even so, we all still manage to work together and cooperate. Isn't that what it's supposed to be about?

It's not easy learning a different language, especially English. English is one of the hardest languages to learn, and if you don't start learning when you're really young, it's even harder. (It's been studied that it becomes harder to learn a language the older you get.) So if we make things just a little easier for them, and for us, by including Spanish on signs or wherever, then what's the big deal?

And I don't think it would hurt anyone to know more than one language.


And back to the original topic, I don't know TOO much about everything you have to go through to become an American citizen, but I know that the immigration rules are necessary. There are always people you want to make sure to keep out of the country. You always need limitations. I'm not quite sure if the question is regarding immigration or becoming a citizen, because you can be a resident here without being a citizen. So when you say "immigrant" it doesn't necessarily mean someone who is a citizen. I have a friend who moved from Malaysia I think, and he actually prefers NOT to be a citizen. I dunno the reasons why though.

I probably could form a better opinion if I knew more about everything you have to go through to become a citizen. It's never been an issue for me, so I've never really looked into it, ya know?
Last edited by Schala on May 6th, '06, 06:19, edited 1 time in total.
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hacksign
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Post by hacksign » May 6th, '06, 06:17

The problem is that it's bad for the economy. I don't know how much everyone understand about how the economy works nor am I gonna go into it in detail but the basic problem is that illegal immigrants lower the standard of living for the lower (and some middle) income people. It widen the gap between the rich and the poor so if you ever hear people saying that they're beneficial, take special note of what category they're in cause, believe it or not, the rich actually do benefit from cheaper and more expendable labor force (legal and illegal alike)

Making them all citizens? Of course, solve the people of too many people by adding more people... what a good anti-solution. I'm not saying that allowing people to become citizens is bad, but that in order not to wreak the economy or to widen the rich-poor gap, the influx of people should be controlled.

Anyways, to conclude, I live in California which has one of the highest minimum wage yet housing alone is difficult and maybe impossible to get on minimum wage. When I used to work, I would see people write applications in which their specify their desired wage to be less than minimum wage even (by quite a bit sometimes too). However, don't start getting any bitter feelings yet, because they were coming mainly from LEGAL citizens. Some of them were students who already understand that they are in competition for jobs though I would also believe they are aware that they really can't live on such a small amount in California (unless they intend to be dependent on parents or someone else for the rest of their lives)
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Schala
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Post by Schala » May 6th, '06, 06:24

Yeah, I know how that is. I live in NJ, and NJ is a very expensive state to live in as well. >_< It would take me years to earn enough money to live on my own. I wouldn't be on my own right now if I hadn't run into a friend of a friend who was willing to rent her condo to me for cheap. And even cheap ($600/month for 2 bedroom) I STILL can't afford on my own, so I had to get a roommate. >_< But I also have a lot of medical expenses too, which contribute to the lack of money. x.x I probably spend an extra $75-$100/month on prescriptions, and yes, that's with health insurance coverage. Without it, I'd be spending $300-$350/month. -_-
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Buck
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Post by Buck » May 6th, '06, 14:12

Yeah, I know how that is. I live in NJ, and NJ is a very expensive state to live in as well. >_< It would take me years to earn enough money to live on my own. I wouldn't be on my own right now if I hadn't run into a friend of a friend who was willing to rent her condo to me for cheap. And even cheap ($600/month for 2 bedroom) I STILL can't afford on my own, so I had to get a roommate. >_< But I also have a lot of medical expenses too, which contribute to the lack of money. x.x I probably spend an extra $75-$100/month on prescriptions, and yes, that's with health insurance coverage. Without it, I'd be spending $300-$350/month. -_-
Whoa that's a bummer. Now I know how it appears to actually live outside on your own..

About the language, personally I have no grudge or anything but the thing is is that English just happens to be the Basic and International language that could be used anywhere. America was once ruled by Native Americans, Indians if you want. So by saying that if you live in a country and ask you to learn whatever that language is, shouldn't we be learning how to speak whatever language Native American is (history a bit rusty there).

Sure we can say that if we go to another country it would be nice for us to learn about their culture and adapting to their way of living (with learning the language of course) but some of us don't do that. Mainly around the world today, there are immigrants everywhere looking and trying to find a place to live in peace and prosperity. America, just happens to be one of those places. Granted that people who wait in line waiting to be allowed access into the U.S. would be a total waste but what about the illegal immigrants who have been "underground" for the past decade or so. Ask yourself how well have they lived, got proper medical care and things like that. They've been living in the dark and now they have a chance to immerge from it and come out into the real world. Whatever Bush (even though I'm against Bush but I'm not against society) has in mind of this bill, I believe it has it's benefits for both sides.
The problem is that it's bad for the economy. I don't know how much everyone understand about how the economy works nor am I gonna go into it in detail but the basic problem is that illegal immigrants lower the standard of living for the lower (and some middle) income people. It widen the gap between the rich and the poor so if you ever hear people saying that they're beneficial, take special note of what category they're in cause, believe it or not, the rich actually do benefit from cheaper and more expendable labor force (legal and illegal alike)
Illegal immigrants do in fact lower the economy. But take one second to tell yourself this -- they're going to be made legal. What does that basically mean? Boost up in the economy. Even though I might not have a complete understanding of the economy and how it runs, I do have a general knowledge knowing that it depends on its people, its trade, taxes and so on. Like I said before, if they're made legal, they gotta pay taxes (which is the downside of all of this + immigrants who waited in line) and they're gonna be stuck just like the rest of us. What a killer.
Happiness is not so much in having as sharing. We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give - Norman Macewan

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Post by Patxi » May 6th, '06, 14:38

As usual people are able to see only and to blame the weakest link of the chain: there is no such thing as "illegal workers", just illegal employers.

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Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 6th, '06, 16:53

Schala wrote:Are any of us even really American? I mean, really the only people that were originally here are the Native American Indians. The people who colonized here were from Britain. So really, America is a diverse country of people from other countries.
OMG! How many years does the United States of America have to be a nation, before we are allowed to call ourselves American without having to hear this ridiculous argument?

While the United States has been a nation for only 230 years, people from many different nations, not just the British, have been immigrating and colonizing this continent for over 500 years since Columbus landed here.

The conquering and recolonization of land all over the world has been a practice that has occured since the beginning of history, even into modern times. It did not start, nor did it end, with the recolonization of the North American continent.

Consider that just 15 years ago, if the USA had not stepped in to protect Kuwait, we would be dealing with a larger Iraq right now. Consider the Chinese occupation of Tibet in the 1950s. Going back much further, consider the conquering of most of Europe by the Roman Empire.

I call myself American, because I am a lawful citizen of this nation. My best friend's husband legally immigrated to this country from Poland a few years ago and recently received his citizenship by following the laws of our nation. He is an American.

The millions or people who crossed our borders without going through the proper channels are not and do not deserve to be American.

I am proud to call myself an American, and I am happy to welcome those who have lawfully earned their right to be called the same.

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shiny plastic
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Post by shiny plastic » May 6th, '06, 17:10

Buck wrote:
Yeah, I know how that is. I live in NJ, and NJ is a very expensive state to live in as well. >_< It would take me years to earn enough money to live on my own. I wouldn't be on my own right now if I hadn't run into a friend of a friend who was willing to rent her condo to me for cheap. And even cheap ($600/month for 2 bedroom) I STILL can't afford on my own, so I had to get a roommate. >_< But I also have a lot of medical expenses too, which contribute to the lack of money. x.x I probably spend an extra $75-$100/month on prescriptions, and yes, that's with health insurance coverage. Without it, I'd be spending $300-$350/month. -_-
Whoa that's a bummer. Now I know how it appears to actually live outside on your own..

About the language, personally I have no grudge or anything but the thing is is that English just happens to be the Basic and International language that could be used anywhere. America was once ruled by Native Americans, Indians if you want. So by saying that if you live in a country and ask you to learn whatever that language is, shouldn't we be learning how to speak whatever language Native American is (history a bit rusty there).

Sure we can say that if we go to another country it would be nice for us to learn about their culture and adapting to their way of living (with learning the language of course) but some of us don't do that. Mainly around the world today, there are immigrants everywhere looking and trying to find a place to live in peace and prosperity. America, just happens to be one of those places. Granted that people who wait in line waiting to be allowed access into the U.S. would be a total waste but what about the illegal immigrants who have been "underground" for the past decade or so. Ask yourself how well have they lived, got proper medical care and things like that. They've been living in the dark and now they have a chance to immerge from it and come out into the real world. Whatever Bush (even though I'm against Bush but I'm not against society) has in mind of this bill, I believe it has it's benefits for both sides.
The problem is that it's bad for the economy. I don't know how much everyone understand about how the economy works nor am I gonna go into it in detail but the basic problem is that illegal immigrants lower the standard of living for the lower (and some middle) income people. It widen the gap between the rich and the poor so if you ever hear people saying that they're beneficial, take special note of what category they're in cause, believe it or not, the rich actually do benefit from cheaper and more expendable labor force (legal and illegal alike)
Illegal immigrants do in fact lower the economy. But take one second to tell yourself this -- they're going to be made legal. What does that basically mean? Boost up in the economy. Even though I might not have a complete understanding of the economy and how it runs, I do have a general knowledge knowing that it depends on its people, its trade, taxes and so on. Like I said before, if they're made legal, they gotta pay taxes (which is the downside of all of this + immigrants who waited in line) and they're gonna be stuck just like the rest of us. What a killer.
HOw about the large problem with overpopulation? Now, America is very much an industrialized society and has proven that even if the citizens reproduce rapidly, it will not produce an overpopulation because it's an industrial country. The only way it will overpopulate is if the government is way too open about letting immigrants come in as they please. That's why we have a waiting list. They're turning people away for the sake of us. Call me morbid, but I'd rather keep people away rather than facing the same problems china has with their population.

You also have to take in consideration those who were on the waiting list. Now they're being forced to wait even longer because these people felt the need to cut in line and demand rights right away. It's absolutely ridiculous for someone to ahve to wait for another 10 years just because someone took their place by crossing the border illegally. And these people who waited in line are if not, just as poor if not worse than those who came here illegally. I've seen it with my own eyes, squatters waiting at the Phillipinne embassy just to get an opportunity to experience this place. It's like a slap in the face.

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Post by Buck » May 6th, '06, 20:25

Yes.. the waiting list.. well there's nothing you can do about that because whenever a law or a bill goes through there will always be consequences. Like look at Arnold whatshisface (Governor of Cali.), look at the outcome -- the laughing stock in our debate team.

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Post by 8thSin » May 6th, '06, 20:37

As the name 'illegal immigrants' says, they are illegal. Just because they are 'benefiting the economy' doesn't make it legal, and may be taking jobs away from US residents and immigrants with legit visa. Those protests are such a nonsense. They are lucky they weren't arrested and deported immediately.

Although, maybe they should make it easier for Mexican immigrants to get work visas in the US.

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Post by kenderkin88 » May 6th, '06, 20:46

Schala wrote:Anyway, the whole language thing never bothered me. I know some people who get really pissed because they see Spanish on almost everything now. (Walk into a Wal-Mart and all the signs include Spanish too. Well, at least where I live they do.) Go to Japan, and a lot of their signs have English on them as well. *shrug*
According to my father [who lived in Japan for years], that's left over from the American occupation after WWII. Japan is also plays a huge role in international business and such, so they need to be able to communicate with people from around the world. English is the international language of diplomacy, so it's only natural that they'd leave things that way. As far as I know, Spanish is not as widespread as English.



I personally don't think that the current immigrants should be liegalised. My ancestors worked very hard to be able to get into this country. Half of my friends are the children of immigrants, and every one of them will agree--if you want to get into the States, FILL OUT THE PAPERWORK. Prove that you deserve to be there. Prove that you are willing to learn the language of a mostly monolingual country.

It just irritates me to walk down the hallway of my school and be LOOKED DOWN ON by all the Hispanics because I don't speak Spanish. Uh, I'm sorry? Since when was the language of the majority SPANISH? Since when were the Star Bangled Banner, the pledge, the national anthem, in SPANISH? [We're ignoring the recent 'translation' that was done. It changed too many of the words to be considered a 'translation.'] I don't like going to the grocery store and finding myself unable to communicate with the cashier because his English isn't up to par. I don't like getting accosted by illegal Mexican construction workers who seem to think that since I'm female and blonde, I'm fair game. I'm sorry, boys, this is MY country. At least LEARN English.

I may have issues against my country and have my heart set on leaving it for good, but that doesn't mean that I support allowing people who have completely DISREGARDED its laws and entered it illegally. Why bother coming to a country if you're not going to pay any attention to its rules?


Schala wrote:It's not easy learning a different language, especially English. English is one of the hardest languages to learn, and if you don't start learning when you're really young, it's even harder. (It's been studied that it becomes harder to learn a language the older you get.) So if we make things just a little easier for them, and for us, by including Spanish on signs or wherever, then what's the big deal?
I always heard that English was among the EASIEST languages to learn, ignoring slang, and the CJK languages were the hardest. :blink



..yay ranting. :lol
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Post by 8thSin » May 6th, '06, 20:52

^CJK is really easy for CJK people to learn, and English pretty hard... Maybe you were talking to Asians? :lol

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Post by Patxi » May 6th, '06, 20:56

    kenderkin88 wrote:I always heard that English was among the EASIEST languages to learn, ignoring slang, and the CJK languages were the hardest. :blink
    Learning the basics of English is indeed easy, but mastering it is quite a different story. As a whole, it is one of the most difficult languages in the world.

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      Post by kenderkin88 » May 6th, '06, 20:59

      Well, one of my really good friends' father is Chinese, and he said that English was really easy, even though he started learning it in his 20s. My father's coworker is Taiwanese, as is his wife, and neither had any issues learning English.

      Then again, Japanese people speaking English is HYSTERICAL, so perhaps it all has to do with a person's innate ability..
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      Post by BrockLeeBeef » May 6th, '06, 21:14

      Yes, please learn English if you’re going to be in America (no hable espanol). Legalizing millions of illegal immigrants would only further the gap because then there would be no more need to learn English. At the very least, the people who became citizens the correct albeit time consuming way, have learned some basic English and American history by having to take a test.

      As kenderkin88 said, prove that you want to be here and that you deserve to be in America. Those that work hard may not get rewarded, but those that are rewarded have surely worked hard. Many people are more deserving to be an American citizen but can’t and why those that shouldn’t are going to be? I am in no way a model person, but I can see that this just isn’t right.

      Whoever brought up this whole situation is a complete idiot. Grant illegal immigrants instant
      citizenship will do a disservice to the millions going about it the correct way; i.e. waiting for years, standing in long lines, etc. Believe me. I have seen the lines at the immigrant building long before there was a ticket machine to claim your place. The lines would extend for blocks and start as early as 7:00 am. You can’t tell me that these people wouldn’t be upset.

      As far as taxes are concerned, having them boosting the economy by paying taxes is really a false positive. In order to stimulate the economy, you have to spend, spend, spend; not pay taxes. People pays taxes every year and yet we still have recessions. The underlying theory is that if the income taxes are lowered, people will have more disposable income, and would spend that disposable income. Stores and companies will have profited and in turn be spending their increased income, thereby stimulating the economy.

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      Post by groink » May 6th, '06, 21:46

      All I can say is that I'm DAMN GLAD I live in Hawaii!!!!!!

      It is virtually impossible for illegal immigrants to sneak onto the Aloha State. Especially because of 9-11, everything from cargo shipping boxes on ships to airplanes are checked. Maybe one or two will sneak into Hawaii at any given time, but it is by far nowhere near the thousands that flood the mainland US each month. AND, English is still much the standard. I do not see any signs of Latino languages used anywhere here - or any other languages for that matter. Maybe in Waikiki you see Japanese and Korean because of tourism, but that's basically it!

      My personal view over legalizing these lawbreakers... It's just an attempt for the left-wing extremists to bring in more votes. There's proof everywhere that Latinos favor the Democratic party by a HUGE margin. Basically, the Democrats help bring Latino families to the US, and in exchange they receive votes from the registered Latino voters.

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      Post by Littleangel91356 » May 6th, '06, 22:04

      ......
      Last edited by Littleangel91356 on Oct 7th, '13, 09:18, edited 1 time in total.

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      Post by phoinos » May 6th, '06, 22:16

      bLaCkNbLuE wrote:OMG! How many years does the United States of America have to be a nation, before we are allowed to call ourselves American without having to hear this ridiculous argument?

      While the United States has been a nation for only 230 years, people from many different nations, not just the British, have been immigrating and colonizing this continent for over 500 years since Columbus landed here.

      The conquering and recolonization of land all over the world has been a practice that has occured since the beginning of history, even into modern times. It did not start, nor did it end, with the recolonization of the North American continent.

      Consider that just 15 years ago, if the USA had not stepped in to protect Kuwait, we would be dealing with a larger Iraq right now. Consider the Chinese occupation of Tibet in the 1950s. Going back much further, consider the conquering of most of Europe by the Roman Empire.
      You rock!

      This is a feeling I've had for a long time. It's been hundreds of years since the US formed. It is America, we are Americans, and I can't stand our guilt culture, in which we have to constantly be politically correct and feel sorry for what our ancestors have done.
      The millions or people who crossed our borders without going through the proper channels are not and do not deserve to be American.

      I am proud to call myself an American, and I am happy to welcome those who have lawfully earned their right to be called the same.
      Again, you rock.

      There's not really much more I can add to the discussion, besides agreeing with all the people who've said the same.

      To grant them their citizenship just because they've shown up here would be a horribly unfair way to treat the immigrants who've gone through the proper steps to become citizens. It's encouragement to anyone else who wants to come here illegally.

      Frankly, we can't be friends with everyone. We can't appease everyone in this situation. At some point, we've just got to stand up and enforce the laws that are in place, regardless of if that will offend the illegal immigrants or not. Illegal immigrants should not be welcomed with open arms. They should be given opportunities to go through the proper steps, but not given their citizenship so easily.

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      Post by Prince of Moles » May 6th, '06, 22:59

      This debate on immigration is a rehash of old debates. When the Irish, Italians, Jews, Poles, Chinese, Japanese, etc came in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, there was all this racist talk of America for Americans and that immigrants should get out.

      Immigration is fine. In fact even illegal immigration doesn't bother me. If there are people who are energetic enough to break the laws and battle the tremendous odds to get here and work, then those are the people that we should in fact want.

      The immigrants' children will learn English. We actually know through statistical surveys that second and third generation hispanics all speak English and lose their ability to speak Spanish.

      Talk about America being crowded is nonsense. There are 300 million people living in the 3rd largest country in the world. Japan has 127 million people living in a country the size of California. And Japan only feels crowded because people want to live in the cities. You go to the Japanese countryside and there's tons of space.


      Of course it would be better if people came legally. But legal immigration is not limited by the number of illegal immigration, these are two seperate issues.

      Legal immigration is screwy. People who can come here legally are either, people who have relatives in the US already, or people who are highly educated and skilled.

      Clearly this legal group is not enough to satisfy the demand for more immigrants. Illegal immigration is an economic response to the demand for low skilled labor in this country.


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      Post by Sana » May 6th, '06, 23:29

      The New Colossus is not on the Statue of Liberty itself.

      America (aka Poor Countries' Unemployment Office) is closed. Thanks for the memories.

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      Post by shiny plastic » May 6th, '06, 23:56

      Talk about America being crowded is nonsense. There are 300 million people living in the 3rd largest country in the world. Japan has 127 million people living in a country the size of California. And Japan only feels crowded because people want to live in the cities. You go to the Japanese countryside and there's tons of space.
      So what you're saying is we should just let this country keep filling up with immigrants until we have an overpopulation? Whatever happened to planning for our future?

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      Post by hacksign » May 6th, '06, 23:56

      Prince of Moles wrote:Talk about America being crowded is nonsense. There are 300 million people living in the 3rd largest country in the world. Japan has 127 million people living in a country the size of California. And Japan only feels crowded because people want to live in the cities. You go to the Japanese countryside and there's tons of space.
      So, you'll ask, why does Japan's economy still booming under those circumstances? If you either go to Japan or study a little about how the economy works over there, you'll see a big difference with how things work in America. Sorry to say this, but Japan is more technologically advance then America. They have better schooling and better internship program then you'll ever see here because most companies spend a lot of money educating people for permanent jobs.

      Here in America, if you can't afford to go to school or drop out for whatever reason, you have little options about what to do for the rest of your lives. I don't know where you live, but it is really evident here in California. If you look around, how much food joints/small shops do you see? How much factories/industrial jobs? Face it, you have to search for those.

      If you lived in Japan, you have the option of taking an internship to basically any type of place you like and the company itself will sponsor you and educate you for the specific skills. It's like school all over again, but you have hands on experience and you're paid. These are good jobs too, and this type of system works for them. They are able to allocate decent jobs to people despite having a large population. In turns, you'll see more white-collar work.

      In contrast, American companies do not feel obligated to provide any support for people. They'll complain about hiring underquality people, but they don't invest money for educating people, even for permanent jobs, cause they feel that it's the school's responsibility. Thus, you'll see less and less of those types of job and more and more blue-collar worker ones, and there is the problem. We're getting more and more people, and they aren't making money equivalent to the Japanese counterpart. As a result, widen gap between the rich and the poor... THAT is what is meant by overpopulation. More people with less meaningful jobs. I'm sure you can take it for there...

      (wow, I said I wasn't intending to go too much into it, but I ended up doing it anyways. that's what people get for demanding so much basic studies classes in school. again, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just explaining how our economy works and why just legalizing people won't work--though in too much detail, i guess)
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      Post by tlina069 » May 7th, '06, 00:06

      Sana wrote:The New Colossus is not on the Statue of Liberty itself.

      America (aka Poor Countries' Unemployment Office) is closed. Thanks for the memories.
      HAHAHAHAHA!!!! :lol That is one of the best lines I've read in years!!!
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      My vote will be "no"

      Post by booniez » May 7th, '06, 00:39

      Rather than read the article at the start of this thread, I decided to answer just the subject itself since I already know my answer: NO.

      [Why is it that saying "no" to legalizing illegal immigraton is bad or otherwise "racist?" I don't get that thinking.]

      As someone who has lived overseas (Japan), I know that I had to obey the laws while I was there - including entering legally. Is it too much to ask the same from others coming to the US? You may come, but come legally (we have so many legal ways to get in). Every other country in the world has stricter immigration laws and I know I'd be in heap-big trouble if just decided to slip into another country -- including Mexico(!).

      For those non-Americans reading this, don't you want me to respect your laws when I come to your country?


      ...Silly me, I even took the trouble to speak Japanese before I went there so I could talk to peolpe and be understood. If only the immigrants would do the same here...

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      Post by greenlogic » May 7th, '06, 00:46

      Yea, Illegal immigrants should not be granted citizenship when it is clear that they have come her illegally. It is a mockery of the law to exempt an illegal immigrant and allow them to become legal immigrants. My parents are immigrants and they came here seeking a better life. I know these people are doing the same, but what they must realize is that there are millions of people that wish the same for thier families and they are trying to get in legally. These illegal immigrants are being granted a way around the bureacracy system that many others have to endure, It is unfair.

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      Post by Buck » May 7th, '06, 06:01

      Perhaps they want get around things. Well if we don't grant them legal status, they'll basically be sent back to their country and have to face trial and things like that. I have a friend's mom who's an illegal immigrant, she has done nothing but working her ass off trying to get a decent wage to help support her family. If you look at it in the perspective of a mother and their children, it's really dreadful that they have to do all that. They should be able to kick back and enjoy what America has to offer.. but they don't.

      Speaking of Japan..

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      life in America = cheap yet had its effects
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      Post by albertoavena » May 7th, '06, 08:01

      life in Japan = expensive
      life in America = cheap yet had its effects
      life in my tub = priceless.
      This made me laugh.. :lol Good stuff...

      Anyway, back on topic, I voted Not decided/Neutral. In a way, yes they're breaking the law by coming here, but in a different point of view, they're just here to work. I mean, does anyone know how hard it use to apply for citizenship in Mexico? It's rather difficult because of the corruption. A friend of mind had permission to work here and wanted to stay longer so he hired someone from his country to help eith the paperwork. The guy conned him and stole over 20,000 dollars. Does that seem really fair? Just getting permission to come over here and work is a pain so most just cross the border hoping to make a better life. If they just want to work, I really see now harm in that.

      But as I said, they are still breaking the law..I don't know what to say to that..
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      Post by mallorn » May 7th, '06, 14:44

      My own personal answer is NO. Half of my family has migrated to the States already, and I won't deny that some of them got there illegally, but most went through the legal process- lining up, interviews, etc. There have been many fine arguments in this thread so I'll just cut mine short- legalizing illegal immigrants in the US right now is just a slap in the face to all those who scrape together the money and wait patiently to go through the legal process, as another poster mentioned. It's like writing off the legalities entirely and saying that it's ok to migrate to the US via the backdoor.
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      Post by Schala » May 7th, '06, 17:51

      bLaCkNbLuE wrote:
      OMG! How many years does the United States of America have to be a nation, before we are allowed to call ourselves American without having to hear this ridiculous argument?

      I am proud to call myself an American, and I am happy to welcome those who have lawfully earned their right to be called the same.
      Just so I'm clear on this, I was only speaking on a technicality. Otherwise, I agree with you. I call myself American too. And anyone else who is a legal immigrant I consider to be American too.
      kenderkin88 wrote: It just irritates me to walk down the hallway of my school and be LOOKED DOWN ON by all the Hispanics because I don't speak Spanish. Uh, I'm sorry? Since when was the language of the majority SPANISH?
      Actually, Spanish is the 2nd most spoken language in the U.S., with English being first of course. With such a diverse country as the U.S., there's always going to be language barriers. They are now teaching Spanish in many elementary schools because there are so many Spanish speaking people living in the U.S. I see no harm in learning the language of the people who make up one of the largest groups of people in the U.S. As long as they attempt to learn some English to help them get by, I see no problem. But comparing an ENTIRE group only by what you see in your school is a bad thing. That's how stereotypes begin. I work in a place with a lot of Spanish speaking people, they speak Spanish amongst themselves, but when they speak to me, they'll try to speak some English. My locker is right next to a Spanish woman's and she always says "Hello, lady, how are you?" in her strong Spanish accent. It's kind of cute, I think. ^^

      My work place is almost like a mini America. Lol. So many different cultures and languages spoken there, but we all coexist and tolerate each other and manage to work together pretty well. Sometimes there are language barries when you need to talk to someone who's native language is Spanish, but we have a few people who speak fluent Spanish (actually one guy is French, so he speaks French, Spanish, and English) to help break that barrier. *shrug* That makes things run a lot more smoothly, no?
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      Post by shiny plastic » May 7th, '06, 18:07

      They are now teaching Spanish in many elementary schools because there are so many Spanish speaking people living in the U.S. I see no harm in learning the language of the people who make up one of the largest groups of people
      I believe Spanish should be optional. You should choose to learn a second language because you're facinated by the culture not because we have to accomdate some immigrants.

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      Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 7th, '06, 18:39

      shiny plastic wrote:
      They are now teaching Spanish in many elementary schools because there are so many Spanish speaking people living in the U.S. I see no harm in learning the language of the people who make up one of the largest groups of people
      I believe Spanish should be optional. You should choose to learn a second language because you're facinated by the culture not because we have to accomdate some immigrants.
      Can I hear an "Amen"?

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      Post by shiny plastic » May 7th, '06, 19:34

      Amen *praises won bin*

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      Post by Schala » May 7th, '06, 19:58

      shiny plastic wrote: I believe Spanish should be optional. You should choose to learn a second language because you're facinated by the culture not because we have to accomdate some immigrants.
      Well, that's your opinion, but only knowing ONE language really limits your communication skills, imo. I dunno how it is in your high school, but in mine it was a REQUIREMENT you take a language class for at least 1 year. You weren't forced to take one certain language though. We had Spanish, French, German, and I think maybe Italian to choose from. I took Spanish for 3 years, because I knew it'd be the most useful. Then in college I took French for one semester because I thought I'd change it up a bit and just be more well rounded. Well, I wasn't too fond of the language, I really didn't like it, but the culture was still interesting to me. And I went into that class knowing practically nothing about France.

      I figure, if we're all living together in the same country, it doesn't hurt to try and understand them and their culture/language like we DEMAND they understand our's.

      Maybe I'm just a little more intrigued because I grew up with this sort of thing. My cousin was adopted from Honduras and my aunt raised her bilingual. And no, I'm in no way Spanish. Neither is my aunt. They always talked to each other in Spanish and we would talk to us in English. My aunt later became a Spanish teacher as well.

      Then in middle school age, I had a Polish friend who moved from Poland. Her dad spoke English well, but her mother did not. She spoke to her mother in Polish all the time, but she herself spoke English fluently and well.

      So I guess growing up around these types of things, where people are speaking more than one language makes me a little more open to it and willing to learn more than one language.

      Though, I must say, on a forum where we watch dramas from another culture(s), I'm very surprised there are people who are AGAINST learning about a different language and culture.

      I also find it ironic that in America, where we are so diverse in different cultures and ethniticies, that the majority of us are pretty closed to learning about them and understanding them. It's like we're saying "Sure, come into our country all you want, but I want NOTHING to do with your culture or language." It just seems kinda strange to me. It's like we demand them to understand our language and culture because they'll be living in OUR country. Key word is our. We share it. So because we live with them, and demand they understand us, should we not do the same? I mean, hey if I was rooming with someone from a different country and English was not their native language, I'd want to better understand them as well. Is that not a similiar situation?
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      Post by OvertheRainbow » May 7th, '06, 20:04

      Wow, really interesting arguments you guys make although I see that 11 people voted "yes" and yet I haven't seen anyone really defend it yet

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      Post by booniez » May 7th, '06, 21:21

      OvertheRainbow: The lack of a defending post for the "yes" point of view can be explained by the fact that a "yes" stance on this issue can't be defended -- not even by the illegals themselves. They would support it, of course, in much the same way a junky would support legalzing drugs.

      However... I would be less against the idea if there was some additional initiative to toughen the immigration laws and their enforcement (including border protection) if the illegal immigrants were suddenly granted amnesty. I know this would never happen since the protesters campaigning for this want to allow new illegals into the US along with making the existing ones legal. Legal immigrants should be insulted by this thinking.

      Albertoavena believes that since the illegals are just looking for a job, there's no harm in entering illegally. I disagree. Once someone is entering the country illegally, he/she is a criminal. Why should someone benefit from such illegal acts?

      Mexico is really a special case. Their presedent was in the US some time ago to campain for those illegal immigrants from his country when he should have been back in Mexico fixing his country so that people would not feel the need to run North. With that kind of guy in charge, someone who wants to throw open another country's borders, how can Mexico hope to improve? His people are seen as nothing more than cheap labor by a neighboring country. Isn't he embarrassed by that at all?

      I also want to condemn the people who want to hire illegals so they can get a cheap labor source. Those criminals should be prosecuted as well.

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      Post by booniez » May 7th, '06, 22:13

      Schala wrote: Though, I must say, on a forum where we watch dramas from another culture(s), I'm very surprised there are people who are AGAINST learning about a different language and culture.
      Schala, I can't disagree with you more on this quote above. Shiny Plastic was pointing out the fact that we are made to learn Spanish because of the number of Spanish-speaking immigrants. It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting to learn about another culture or language. This forum is proof of that. You knew this, but you intentionally played dumb just then.
      Schala wrote: I also find it ironic that in America, where we are so diverse in different cultures and ethniticies, that the majority of us are pretty closed to learning about them and understanding them. It's like we're saying "Sure, come into our country all you want, but I want NOTHING to do with your culture or language."
      When I was in Japan, I had to improve my ability to communicate because I knew I was not going to be around English speakers often -- and I wasn't. Could I really be a good resident of Japan if I simply expected the Japanese people I met to just speak English to me? Of course not. Not only is it uneralistic, but it's unfair. No one in Japan told me to come there so I made the effort to be understood. I was not someone's guest or new relative so there was no obligation anyone had to speak to me in my native language.
      Schala wrote:It just seems kinda strange to me. It's like we demand them to understand our language and culture because they'll be living in OUR country.
      Um.. yeah... and your point is...? I made the effort to learn Japanese so I could get along in Japan. No one told me to go there so why should I just do nothing and expect people to accommodate me?
      Schala wrote: Key word is our. We share it. So because we live with them, and demand they understand us, should we not do the same? I mean, hey if I was rooming with someone from a different country and English was not their native language, I'd want to better understand them as well. Is that not a similiar situation?
      If you come to my country, you should learn to get along in my country. Whether or not I want to know your culture or language is my choice and you cannot judge me on what decision I make. If I go to your country, I must learn to get along in your country. Whether or not you are interested in my country is up to you and I cannot judge you based on your decision. If you come to my country, obey the laws -- including entering legally. If I go to your country, I'll obey the laws -- including entering legally.

      Is this so unreasonable?

      Sorry, you can't apply roommate manners, adoption mores, or social rules to this debate. It would only serve to distract from the point raised in the initlal post and cause us to fall into the trap I explain below.


      Sorry everyone. I know his post was slightly off topic, but I wanted to respond since we seem to be falling into the old trap of turning the debate of illegal immigration into some kind of "racism" debate in which those who are against illegal immigration are painted as racists. It hasn't happened yet, but I can see it that it may given the nature of some of the more recent posts.

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      Post by qoogirl » May 7th, '06, 22:23

      The question asked here doesn't give enough options for the many replies that you can have.

      For starters, you are all assuming (just like the media and even American politicians do) that most illegal immigrants are here because they've snuck in from a border or something. Almost HALF (that's 50%) of those who make up "illegal immigrants" in the United States are people who overstay their Visas (a majority from Canada and Europe). Why they do not renew their Visas is an unknown and most likely differs from person to person case.

      I think that if we're going to say "We have laws for a reason!" we should examine these laws and talk about who they benefit and why we have them in place. Why is it harder for Koreans to immigrate to the U.S. than it is for Chinese or Canadians? Well, for starters, the US has been known to be more lenient for those "fleeing from Communism" because the US government is a democratic one. Similarly, nations which help the US economy and government also will receive some leniency (people in professional positions who overstay their visas, for example; or temporary workers who work for minimum wage Americans do not thus keeping American products priced low). My take is that if the US government and economy are willing to admit that even most of its "illegal immigrants" are necessary for the better of American society, then Americans ought to re-examine their laws so that people can stay in the United States legally without being hounded down by police or "I'm a Citizen-Arrester!" types.

      And just something that was bothering me:
      1. Over-population. The US's population when compared to other nations is actually very small. When we talk about resources and health problems, we can look to some other industrialized nations like Germany (with ~85 mil.), Japan (with ~120 mil.) and America (with ~280 mil.). America is extremely larger than Germany and Japan, and yet only with 280 mil. people. Furthermore, statistics prove that people choose to immigrate to countries where they can find employment and have a nicer standard of living--if these things become harder to attain (i.e. because the number of jobs decreases in America), then people will stop coming. The nation won't get over-populated over night. We also have to look at American culture--a large majority of Americans just don't have that many children.
      Another thing to think of is asylum seekers (and their children). They are a type of immigrant too--and sometimes involuntarily illegal. Unfortunately, the US seems to be on a mission to turn away certain countries so they will come to America illegally. It's all relative to what the US government deems "refugee status." Many people who were being murdered by Castro wanted to seek asylum and at least enter the US legally (entering a country illegaly is not only dangerous, but its nerveracking because you know that you dont' get the same rights as others--no one WANTS to be illegal!), but only those who being "politically assaulted" could come (for example gays and lesbians--which is off the books now, but just to give you an example). So you had people who either pretended to be something that weren't, or chose to flee their country anyway, thus becoming illegal. I don't believe that the American government is turning away people solely based on jobs and numbers, I believe a lot of it has to do with the ignorance of American politics. So, yes, in short, I think people should be allowed to become citizens even if they came to the US illegally initially. Otherwise America would lose about 60% of its population, haha.

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      Post by booniez » May 7th, '06, 22:49

      Goodness! I hope I don't seem like one of Qoogirl's "Citizen-Arrester" types.

      The case of legal immigrants who overstay their visas and find themselves on the "illegal" side is certainly a part of this debate, but I don't think we look upon those people in the same light as those who come into the country illegally. I have known peple who overstayed their visas for one reson or another, but how many of them find themselves in this position because they just didn't want to return to their native country and are content to be under-the-radar? I think it's these people, among the visa overstayers, are the ones I would have a problem with.

      I know there are some who are promised a new visa and make long term plans based on that promise and then are stuck when the promise is broken. I know there are some who are abused in their jobs because they are beholding to an employer for a visa. I truly feel sorry for them and if they can have the courage to come forward and try to work something out with the government, then it should certainly allow for this. If not, then we are failing to show that being a legal immigrant is better than being an illegal.

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      Post by scott12199 » May 7th, '06, 23:14

      Buck wrote:
      Yeah, I know how that is. I live in NJ, and NJ is a very expensive state to live in as well. >_< It would take me years to earn enough money to live on my own. I wouldn't be on my own right now if I hadn't run into a friend of a friend who was willing to rent her condo to me for cheap. And even cheap ($600/month for 2 bedroom) I STILL can't afford on my own, so I had to get a roommate. >_< But I also have a lot of medical expenses too, which contribute to the lack of money. x.x I probably spend an extra $75-$100/month on prescriptions, and yes, that's with health insurance coverage. Without it, I'd be spending $300-$350/month. -_-
      Whoa that's a bummer. Now I know how it appears to actually live outside on your own..

      About the language, personally I have no grudge or anything but the thing is is that English just happens to be the Basic and International language that could be used anywhere. America was once ruled by Native Americans, Indians if you want. So by saying that if you live in a country and ask you to learn whatever that language is, shouldn't we be learning how to speak whatever language Native American is (history a bit rusty there).

      Sure we can say that if we go to another country it would be nice for us to learn about their culture and adapting to their way of living (with learning the language of course) but some of us don't do that. Mainly around the world today, there are immigrants everywhere looking and trying to find a place to live in peace and prosperity. America, just happens to be one of those places. Granted that people who wait in line waiting to be allowed access into the U.S. would be a total waste but what about the illegal immigrants who have been "underground" for the past decade or so. Ask yourself how well have they lived, got proper medical care and things like that. They've been living in the dark and now they have a chance to immerge from it and come out into the real world. Whatever Bush (even though I'm against Bush but I'm not against society) has in mind of this bill, I believe it has it's benefits for both sides.
      The problem is that it's bad for the economy. I don't know how much everyone understand about how the economy works nor am I gonna go into it in detail but the basic problem is that illegal immigrants lower the standard of living for the lower (and some middle) income people. It widen the gap between the rich and the poor so if you ever hear people saying that they're beneficial, take special note of what category they're in cause, believe it or not, the rich actually do benefit from cheaper and more expendable labor force (legal and illegal alike)
      Illegal immigrants do in fact lower the economy. But take one second to tell yourself this -- they're going to be made legal. What does that basically mean? Boost up in the economy. Even though I might not have a complete understanding of the economy and how it runs, I do have a general knowledge knowing that it depends on its people, its trade, taxes and so on. Like I said before, if they're made legal, they gotta pay taxes (which is the downside of all of this + immigrants who waited in line) and they're gonna be stuck just like the rest of us. What a killer.

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      Post by mallepa » May 7th, '06, 23:28

      I agree that maybe they shouldn't be in the US illegally, but I don't know... it'd be kinda cruel to kick them out that way. :x I mean, if they were useless bums who sit on the streets all day and mooch off other people, then yeah, they can leave. But if they're contributing to the economy, then I don't see a real reason (besides the law >.>) that they should be kicked out. They're contributing to America's growth, after all.

      And yes, I know some people had to wait forever before they got their papers to come to the States/Canada/North America, but these people were probably poor in their other countries and spent all they had to come to America. And it'll seem like a crime against humanity to just send them back like that. o.o;;

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      Post by scott12199 » May 8th, '06, 03:35

      Bush needs to leave the illegal immigrants alone. If he deports all of the illegal immigrants prices for groceries will sky rocket. LEAVE THE CHEAP LABOR ALONE BUSH!!!!!!!!!

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      Post by ephesus » May 8th, '06, 03:59

      "But if they're contributing to the economy, then I don't see a real reason (besides the law >.>) that they should be kicked out. "
      That's why you're not in any sort of position of power.

      "LEAVE THE CHEAP LABOR ALONE BUSH!!!!!!!!!"
      Just because labor and prices are cheap doesn't mean that it's a good thing. You would have to have a very poor understanding of the way the economy works to think that. For example, you can go to Wallmart and save $.30 on a bag of chips, but you're supporting a company that kills smaller businesses and then rehires those people with no benefits, health insurance or job security that they had before. In the end, they screw over everybody involved, but hey, you save $.30
      In the same way, hiring illegal cheap labor may lower your final prices, but is it really *good* for society?

      I voted a "no." And I wasn't even born an American, but I became one legally (through adoption).
      Don't even get me started on the fact that if you try to cross Mexico's SOUTH border, the mexicans will SHOOT you. But on the north border, all mexicans apparently have a right to the spoils of American tax-payers years of work and effort. Kind of a double standard innit? ;)
      You can't just move into your neighbor's house because you think it's nice. It's not your freaking house, you didn't build it, you have to ask them if you can move in.

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      Post by shiny plastic » May 8th, '06, 04:22

      scott12199 wrote:Bush needs to leave the illegal immigrants alone. If he deports all of the illegal immigrants prices for groceries will sky rocket. LEAVE THE CHEAP LABOR ALONE BUSH!!!!!!!!!
      So you're basically condoning businesses to have them do blue collar jobs with a dismal salary just so you could save a few pennies? Wow, that's hypocracy right there.

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      Post by Schala » May 8th, '06, 04:29

      booniez, you missed the point of my post. I'm saying that we should BOTH learn each other's language and culture. I'm not saying Spanish people should learn about just us or vice versa, I'm saying both of us should learn about each other. >_< Since they are moving into our country, they should learn about us and learn our language. But that doesn't change the fact that English is not their native language. So if so many Spanish immigrants are coming here, and they make up one, if not the, 2nd largest group of people in the U.S., we should learn about them too. I want to understand and know more about people I'm coexisting with. Not trying to offend anyone, I just can't understand why others do not?

      And my post has NOTHING to do with racism. In no way was I calling anyone racist, so don't accuse me of that. In fact, I haven't seen any posts like that yet, so I don't even know why you're bringing that up.

      And I never said anything about being for illegal immigration either. The laws are in place for a reason; security and safety. Without them, think of how easy it would be for terrorists to entire our country.

      So, yes, I think laws on immigration have their benefits. Of course, there are always disadvantages too, but that's how almost everything is.
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      Post by groink » May 8th, '06, 04:46

      scott12199 wrote:Bush needs to leave the illegal immigrants alone. If he deports all of the illegal immigrants prices for groceries will sky rocket. LEAVE THE CHEAP LABOR ALONE BUSH!!!!!!!!!
      Here's a stat for you... 4.6-percent unemployment rate in April 2006(1).

      So based on your logic here, although 4.6-percent of REGISTERED Americans can't find a job, these people would rather stay unemployed than take on a miinimum wage job like washing toilets or plowing a field for crops. AND, American companies would rather hire under-the-table workers or workers overseas that can afford the less-than-minimum wage, than hire a REGISTERED American

      To me, that's really messed up thinking. Right now, there are 298,444,215 registered Americans in the United States. (2) You take 4.6-percent of that and you get 13,728,433 unemployed Americans. Now, according to an independant study conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center in March 2005, 10,300,000 illegal immigrants roam the US (3). And that study was in 2005. With that, the illegal immigrant population could potentially EAT 3.45-PERCENT OF OUR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's taking jobs away from 3,428,433 of our REGISTERED unemployed Americans.

      Good Americans getting potential jobs stolen from them. That's a major problem I have here. The number-one goal here is for every registered American to keep a paying job. Bringing in illegal immigrants - or just bringing in immigrants PERIOD make it more difficult. That is why legalized immigration is controlled.

      (1) - U.S. Department of Labor http://www.bls.gov/
      (2) - The World Factbook http://www.cia.gov/
      (3) - Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55202-2005Mar21.html

      --- groink
      Last edited by groink on May 8th, '06, 04:58, edited 1 time in total.

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      Post by shiny plastic » May 8th, '06, 04:56

      groink wrote:
      scott12199 wrote:Bush needs to leave the illegal immigrants alone. If he deports all of the illegal immigrants prices for groceries will sky rocket. LEAVE THE CHEAP LABOR ALONE BUSH!!!!!!!!!
      Here's a stat for you... 4.6-percent unemployment rate in April 2006(1).

      So based on your logic here, although 4.6-percent of REGISTERED Americans can't find a job, these people would rather stay unemployed than take on a miinimum wage job like washing toilets or plowing a field for crops. AND, American companies would rather hire under-the-table workers or workers overseas that can afford the less-than-minimum wage, than hire a REGISTERED American

      To me, that's really messed up thinking. Right now, there are 298,444,215 registered Americans in the United States. (2) You take 4.6-percent of that and you get 13,728,433 unemployed Americans. Now, according to an independant study conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center in March 2005, 10,300,000 illegal immigrants roam the US (3). And that study was in 2005. With that, the illegal immigrant population could potential EAT 3.45-PERCENT OF OUR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's taking jobs away from over half of our REGISTERED unemployed Americans.

      Good Americans getting potential jobs stolen from them. That's a major problem I have here.

      (1) - U.S. Department of Labor http://www.bls.gov/
      (2) - The World Factbook http://www.cia.gov/
      (3) - Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55202-2005Mar21.html

      --- groink
      Pwnage at it's highest form. :lol

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      Post by Buck » May 8th, '06, 05:39

      Ouch. Very well said!
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      Post by qoogirl » May 8th, '06, 06:06

      groink wrote:
      scott12199 wrote:Bush needs to leave the illegal immigrants alone. If he deports all of the illegal immigrants prices for groceries will sky rocket. LEAVE THE CHEAP LABOR ALONE BUSH!!!!!!!!!
      Here's a stat for you... 4.6-percent unemployment rate in April 2006(1).

      So based on your logic here, although 4.6-percent of REGISTERED Americans can't find a job, these people would rather stay unemployed than take on a miinimum wage job like washing toilets or plowing a field for crops. AND, American companies would rather hire under-the-table workers or workers overseas that can afford the less-than-minimum wage, than hire a REGISTERED American

      To me, that's really messed up thinking. Right now, there are 298,444,215 registered Americans in the United States. (2) You take 4.6-percent of that and you get 13,728,433 unemployed Americans. Now, according to an independant study conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center in March 2005, 10,300,000 illegal immigrants roam the US (3). And that study was in 2005. With that, the illegal immigrant population could potentially EAT 3.45-PERCENT OF OUR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's taking jobs away from 3,428,433 of our REGISTERED unemployed Americans.

      --- groink
      My problem with statistics is that there is no proof that Americans are vying for minimum wage jobs to clean toilets, pick strawberries or do housework. Instead, they're vying for the jobs that legal and illegal workers take in higher end professional sectors. If we're really worried about people eating our jobs who aren't American citizens, we shouldn't recruit foreign doctors to work where Americans prefer not to, we shouldn't recruit foreign technology, etc. etc. Those are the jobs that pay and that people really want. But with that logic, most industrial nations would be in a pickle! Quite a bit of legalized immigration is biased in itself and needs to be re-handled in my opinion.

      As it stands, undocumented workers who get paid below minimum wage in blue collar jobs because of shifty employers are a double-edged sword, I suppose: if Americas lose them, they must raise their minimum wage as labor is NOT cheap--the price of objects will have to go up indefinitely; on the other hand, if they keep them, they are ensuring that an illegal system continues and put millions of people at risk of the dangers of being illegal in a country.

      Also, I don't understand how getting rid of some 13 mil. people automatically means that unemployed people will be employed. It's unrealistic. I also think that though we must focus on immigration (because that's what we're talking about), we need to put this issue of unemployment in a bigger context of "why are so many Americans unemployed--in particular what is their background that perpetuates this--and willing to get paid so little?" and "why does it take double the income simply to survive in American cities now?" If we want to help Americans, maybe Americans ought to take a look at what is intrinsically wrong with the system before it blames illegal immigration for possible unemployment (which has already lead to riots and racial tensions in many US cities...).

      I think this is what Bush hopes to handle with another temporary worker permit (like the Bracero Program) in future. It doesn't necessarily tackle America's original employment problems, but it at least keeps the American economy afloat without people worrying about "illegals."

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      Post by Erliana2 » May 8th, '06, 06:31

      After reading a few posts, I have to say that I am somewhat torn. I understand how hard it is to become legal in America (it took me 10 years to get a green card), So a part of me is somewhat annoyed that some people are demanding that they automatically get something I waited 10 years for. But there is a lot of pros and cons

      Cheap Labor- I understand that illegal immigrants are taking up a lot of jobs here in America. But life is tough. The first thing I think of is...groceries. It is somewhat a selfish reason. I make about $1.50/hour above minimum wage and everything adds up. It adds up so much that food is usually the last thing on my list. Some people might think that I am an advocate in the exploiting of illegal immigrants, But I feel that The good thing about illegal immigrants is that some of them take jobs that no one else wants (especially at about $3-4/per hour). some people might argue that the farmers that hire these illegal immigrants arecheap but how else can some places sell apples at $1 a pound? We can't just stop cheap labor, the american public is too dependant on it ,while at the same time, dependancy on cheap labor will increase competition which will lead to lower wages for people who can actually work legally.
      [url]http://www.cagle.com//news/ImmigrationIssues/images/stahler.gif[/url]
      So far the things most people have been arguing about is cheap labor and the fact that it is unfair how someone can jump the border and demand citizenship.
      I see a lot of problems with both of these issues, but there is alot of different things that I am concerned with. (while some people can be confused let me remind you once again that I don't know which side I'm on)

      I already covered cheap labor, so moving on to the demand for citizenship, I feel that it is very unfair, especially to those who file their papers. If it is the money or the time then why did so many illegal immigrants not go to work on May 1st? And they didn't go to work to get up early and line up in immigration to file paperwork , they went downtown to protest! Don't get me wrong, I am all for people protesting for what they believe in, but I felt that some of them gave the wrong impression, especially early on. Am I the only one who remembers the time they waved the flag of MEXICO and yelling in SPANISH. They say the want equal rights be "american" so to speak but based on these actions, the wrong message was being sent out. It wasn't" I want to be an american citizen", it was "america, give us the same rights but not the citizenship." In a way I felt that they didn't want to join america and be part of it, the wanted america to give up a part of itself for them. Basically it's turf war.

      Criminals- illegal immigrants who happen to be criminals are either sent to jail where taxpayers pay for the food and building of new jails as we do have a problem with overcrowded jails. or deported, where most illegal immigrants find their way back to the US and at times commit more crimes.

      I do have a couple more arguements (and I'm sure I missed a couple) but that's it for today. As for the debate over languages, Yes, english is the main language here but if people can't speak it they should take the time to learn, if they already know how to speak english but speak spanish in front of people who don't understand what they are saying, they have to realize it is RUDE.
      Last edited by Erliana2 on May 8th, '06, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

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      Post by groink » May 8th, '06, 06:39

      qoogirl wrote:My problem with statistics is that there is no proof that Americans are vying for minimum wage jobs to clean toilets, pick strawberries or do housework.
      To properly debate, you cannot assume things like this. That's why I provided the statistics. You must assume that, based on unemployement laws from state-to-state, to retain unemployment status and receive benefits, you must achieve a minimum number of interviews, submit a minimum number of resumes, and have documented proof of these efforts. So with that, Americans ARE trying to get jobs. So it is safe, for the sake of debate, to take on the platform that every American is economically viable. And, it serves as proof that Americans are INDEED vying for minimum wage jobs. If there's even a sign of a person turning down a job because of it providing less-than attiquate pay, the State will basically revoke their unemployment benefits and NOT allow them to qualify for welfare. So in short it does not benefit a person ONE BIT to turn down a job because of low pay or the type of work.

      If they cannot obtain a job because of their skill levels, there are several programs that allow for them to obtain training in their choice of field. For example, in the State of Hawaii, if you're unemployed and your profession is a computer programmer, you can obtain funding for training via the State's unemployment system to learn new computer languages.

      Simply, there has to be something REALLY wrong with the person if he can't get a job in America. But even despite the fact that there are actually Americans who are economically unviable, it still doesn't give a logical excuse to give the left-over "grunt work" to illegal immigrants.

      --- groink

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      Post by SHD » May 8th, '06, 06:43

      legalize them--yes or no is only a part of the issue

      if a large portion of those in the country illegally are taking up the low paying work that keeps cost down then what really happens should those workers become eligible for protection under labor laws, receive wage increases, benefits and such? costs go up OR

      employers continue to seek newer aliens willing to take lower wages. so the illegal immigration never ends (short of building the Great Wall of America).

      those who protest to make them legal--are already in the country. how are they going to feel seeing their jobs being taken away from them by employers wanting to utilize cheaper (probably illegal) labor?

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      Post by scott12199 » May 8th, '06, 08:50

      We need to leave the illegal immigrants alone. I cant afford apples at 3 dollars a pound. lolz, you guys are funny. The economy is doing bad. Bush is an idiot. The reason why we have a high unemployment rate is because we are too dependent on foreign goods not because some mexican is mowing our lawns or picking strawberries for us. If you don't believe me ask yourself where your tv was made. Do you think sony produce majority of their products in the US? I bet majority of the clothes you wear is from vietnam or china. Small the coffee people. it's the corporate world and the hungry for them to make a freaking dollar that is causing the unemployment rate to go up. We need to create new jobs and what better than to raise the traiffs for imports forcing them ceo monkeys to start producing goods in the US.

      BOO to greedy corporate world... yay to illegal immigrants for my 1 dollar per pound of apples... lolz

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      Post by Prince of Moles » May 8th, '06, 12:40

      1) Whoever thinks 4.5% unemployment is high in the US doesn't understand economics.

      4.5% unemployment is low. Very low. Anything lower and we're asking for inflation to bust out. (Heck it seems that inflation is already starting up again...)

      There's always going to be around 5% unemployment because companies go bankrupt, people quit jobs searching for better jobs, etc. That's just the friction that's involved in a modern capitalist economy. There will always be a turn over, and it's those people that are temporarily unemployment. There is no permanent underclass that is unemployed year after year (except in certain urbal settings).

      (And personally I think administrations have always been lowballing the unemployment rate, for polling purposes. But if it's been consistent then it's a useful statistical number, anyway I digress.)

      2) Illegal immigrants are already working. They are not going to take away new jobs. Since they are illegal, they cannot rely on the government to care for them. They must be working right now to somehow survive in the US. So unemployment rate is not going to change, in fact it's likely to go down if you legalize them.

      3) The problem is whether their legalization will raises costs or not. Are illegals being paid close to minimum wage? If they are not, by legalizing them, you will raise costs and likely to draw a new batch of illegals. But if they were paid reasonably close to minimum wage, then costs will not rise and there is no fear of a sudden rush of a new batch of illegals. (Now more immigrants might be arriving, but that would be becuase they want to leave their country more than they want to come to this specific country.)

      We won't know the answer for sure until we try. But I'm of the opinion that it'll be more beneficial to everyone in this country to give them legality than not.

      PS
      I can't stress the inaneness of the overcrowded idea. If Japan has 127 million people in a country the side of 1/25 of the US, then by simple math, 127 million x 25 = 3,175 million = 3 billion people. The US can house 3 billion people (half the world's population or ten times the amount of people in the US currently) before getting to Japan level crowdedness. And Japan's not crowded once you leave the cities.)

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      Post by scott12199 » May 8th, '06, 19:21

      Those that believe in legalizing them do not think of the consequence. The benefits they receive will cause higher taxes. Agriculture Farmers who pay dirt cheap for labor will have to raise prices to compensate for the hike is labor cost. The millions of dollars that will be needed to process their paper work and screening. Future illegals demanding legalization... court cases? more money. The cons out weigh the pros not matter how you look at it.
      Last edited by scott12199 on May 8th, '06, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.

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      Post by shiny plastic » May 8th, '06, 19:29

      scott12199 wrote:Those that believe in legalizing them do not think of the consequence.
      Well, if you looked at some of the posts that are pro-legalization have analyzed the consequences. While I'm very much anti-legalization to illegal immigrants, you have to give them credit on putting up a good argument.

      dark_leafar
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      ..

      Post by dark_leafar » May 8th, '06, 19:41

      The fact that this country was founded by immigrants should be enough to everyone. Think about it. What if Native Americans had had a society advanced enough to keep the Europeans out? Dont you think they would have thought the same about current Americans? That they dont deserve to be here because they didnt build the country? That they dont deserve to stay because they came without permission? But it didnt matter to the British(Europeans). THey disregarded the Native Americans right to land; the fact that Native AMericans didnt really want them there (and they were still willing to share!!) and that the land was not rightfully theirs. But British not only came over to this country,they massacred its inhabitants until their numbers were so low that they could pack them in reserves. THey took the land by force, exploited it, and called it their own. They commited inhumane, treacherous act all throughout history against these poor people. These illegal British immigrants, because thats what they were, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS (not because of law but because of basic morals and values) are the ancestors of most people here who are "proud americans". How could someone who lives in a country which was founded on blood and treachery dare say "we will draw a line here..we murdered most native americans and took over this land but the rest of you (modern latino, asian, and european imimgrants) may not come anymore. Even though we took this country by force and claimed it ours, we will be hypocrites and call all current illegal immigrants CRIMINALS, even though they are just coming here to work their asses off while our ancestors were unwanted immigrants who came here because of greed and desire to extend the British empire. Illegal immigrants come here for a better future, a better job, to be able to have something to eat the next day; because they come from countries in which no longer how much you work, you may still starve. Yes, many of them are in fact breaking the law, and "cutting in line" ahead of those who actually went through to paper work. But whether it is fair or not (life isnt fair) these illegal immigrants come here so much and for so long that the U.S economy and society has absorbed them as part of the economy and work force, in a way that they have become INDISPENSABLE. It does not matter whether you think its fair or not, the cold truth is this. Without these "criminals" who cut in line, the economy will break down. Asian immigrants built most of the railroad system in the U.S. Go to any constuction place or project. Are the most of the workers not illegal and Hispanic? And there is many illegal people whose existence we do not take into consideration because they have a fake social or ID. Immigrants simply perform too many of the insdispensable jobs in the U.S. Without them, we would be screwed. JUst picture it. 11 million Illegal immigrants gone. Would you dare say this would not affect the economy? Do you actually think registered americans would take these so called unwanted jobs? Even if they did, they would no accept the under-minimum-wage salary. Enterprises would be forced to pay them more, and thus prices of many things would go up. Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for those who actually applied legally and are waiting in line. But you just cant ignore the fact that while they are waiting in line, the illegal immingrants are performing an indispensable job and helping to the development of the U.S. Fair? no is not, but thats jsut the way it is...Now that if we were to take all of those waiting in line and let them in, while letting the ones already here stay, I think everybody would get a piece of the cake and everything would be balanced

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      Re: ..

      Post by bLaCkNbLuE » May 8th, '06, 20:33

      dark_leafar wrote:The fact that this country was founded by immigrants should be enough to everyone. Think about it. What if Native Americans had had a society advanced enough to keep the Europeans out? Dont you think they would have thought the same about current Americans? That they dont deserve to be here because they didnt build the country? That they dont deserve to stay because they came without permission? But it didnt matter to the British(Europeans). THey disregarded the Native Americans right to land; the fact that Native AMericans didnt really want them there (and they were still willing to share!!) and that the land was not rightfully theirs. But British not only came over to this country,they massacred its inhabitants until their numbers were so low that they could pack them in reserves. THey took the land by force, exploited it, and called it their own. They commited inhumane, treacherous act all throughout history against these poor people. These illegal British immigrants, because thats what they were, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS (not because of law but because of basic morals and values) are the ancestors of most people here who are "proud americans". How could someone who lives in a country which was founded on blood and treachery dare say "we will draw a line here..we murdered most native americans and took over this land but the rest of you (modern latino, asian, and european imimgrants) may not come anymore. Even though we took this country by force and claimed it ours, we will be hypocrites and call all current illegal immigrants CRIMINALS, even though they are just coming here to work their asses off while our ancestors were unwanted immigrants who came here because of greed and desire to extend the British empire. Illegal immigrants come here for a better future, a better job, to be able to have something to eat the next day; because they come from countries in which no longer how much you work, you may still starve. Yes, many of them are in fact breaking the law, and "cutting in line" ahead of those who actually went through to paper work. But whether it is fair or not (life isnt fair) these illegal immigrants come here so much and for so long that the U.S economy and society has absorbed them as part of the economy and work force, in a way that they have become INDISPENSABLE. It does not matter whether you think its fair or not, the cold truth is this. Without these "criminals" who cut in line, the economy will break down. Asian immigrants built most of the railroad system in the U.S. Go to any constuction place or project. Are the most of the workers not illegal and Hispanic? And there is many illegal people whose existence we do not take into consideration because they have a fake social or ID. Immigrants simply perform too many of the insdispensable jobs in the U.S. Without them, we would be screwed. JUst picture it. 11 million Illegal immigrants gone. Would you dare say this would not affect the economy? Do you actually think registered americans would take these so called unwanted jobs? Even if they did, they would no accept the under-minimum-wage salary. Enterprises would be forced to pay them more, and thus prices of many things would go up. Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for those who actually applied legally and are waiting in line. But you just cant ignore the fact that while they are waiting in line, the illegal immingrants are performing an indispensable job and helping to the development of the U.S. Fair? no is not, but thats jsut the way it is...Now that if we were to take all of those waiting in line and let them in, while letting the ones already here stay, I think everybody would get a piece of the cake and everything would be balanced
      Hello???? Do I really need to repeat my previous rant on the subject of recolonization of the worlds various regions throughout history? Please! That is arguably the worst and most uneducated argument against the legitimacy of the USA as a nation.

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      Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 20:54

      scott12199 wrote:We need to leave the illegal immigrants alone. I cant afford apples at 3 dollars a pound. lolz, you guys are funny. The economy is doing bad. Bush is an idiot. The reason why we have a high unemployment rate is because we are too dependent on foreign goods not because some mexican is mowing our lawns or picking strawberries for us. If you don't believe me ask yourself where your tv was made. Do you think sony produce majority of their products in the US? I bet majority of the clothes you wear is from vietnam or china. Small the coffee people. it's the corporate world and the hungry for them to make a freaking dollar that is causing the unemployment rate to go up. We need to create new jobs and what better than to raise the traiffs for imports forcing them ceo monkeys to start producing goods in the US.

      BOO to greedy corporate world... yay to illegal immigrants for my 1 dollar per pound of apples... lolz
      I agree entirely with this post. And I would like to add, that if everyone in the U.S. does what I do, and contributes money to their local free clinic so that their poorer neighbors can recieve healthcare before they become critical emergency cases, that the whole situation will improve radically for everyone.

      I wonder how many people here are aware of the Chinese Exclusion Acts, and the result of those laws on the immigrant population and economic situation at that time. I suggest that folks do a little google search about that before they go slamming the illegal immigrant. History is entirely on the side of the immigrant. The general ignorance of history displayed by people at D-Addicts is disgusting.

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      Post by Sana » May 8th, '06, 20:54

      Yes, ignore the fact that most Americans today are of mixed Native, European, and African blood and born on this land or that a hell of a lot of other immigrants have paperwork. Just go back to a time when somebody's great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather stole land from the Natives. Oh my god, my heart won't stop breaking. ;_; Everybody gets a free pass to America now! Yatta! :)

      Forget crime and overcrowded schools. I need my cheap produce. I can't live without apples, sweet sweet apples. *drools* And if some endangered whale also happens to land on American soil, I'm going to carve it up to make sushi. Afterall, once it's on American soil that makes it legal.

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      Post by groink » May 8th, '06, 21:04

      REMINDER FOLKS --

      The argument on this topic is whether or not to LEGALIZE the right-now illegal immigrants. I'm seeing some of the comments here leading towards the belief that some people are AGAINST immigration, period. No one here is against immigration of any kind. The history comments really bears no relevance in this topic because the issues before us right now is what's happening in 2006. So please don't lean the comments towards that falsehood and let's stay on-track with the topic at-hand.

      --- groink

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      Post by pokute » May 8th, '06, 21:19

      Here, anyone with 20 bucks to spend can learn all about immigrants and the shifting sands of the legal/illegal status of immigrants:

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520224132/

      It's a very convenient but specious argument to say that history has no bearing on what is happening in 2006. It is very useful to know how people have responded to the opportunity to criminalise their neighbors in the past when considering what will happen this time around.

      Groink, when you were quoting your statistics, were you aware that those numbers only represent people actively receiving unempoyment benefits? The actual number of people out of work is typically a factor of 4 larger. Frame the topic any way you like, I'll say what I want to regardless.

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      Post by angelemei » May 8th, '06, 21:48

      If you legalize the currently illegal immigrants... then wouldn't it mean that there will be more illegal immigrants in the future? Think about it: we legalize the currently illegal immigrants. Next thing you know, they are asking for at least minimum wage to continue working. Perhaps an immigrant workers union will start up to raise their wages - I mean, can you blame them? Next thing you know, more illegal immigrants will cross the border and those employers who want cheaper labor will hire them instead of the newly-legalized immigrants who want more money. It's a cycle of despair. Things can't be solved that easily by just giving a free pass to everyone.

      Also, what about all those hard-working legal immigrants who can't work? My mom wasn't allowed to work when I was a kid b/c my dad was just a grad student. He could only work under the University. My family was so poor back then just living on my dad's graduate student stipend. Heck, when I was 16, I totally wanted to work to help my family out, but I wasn't allowed to b/c we were in the middle of applying for the green card and the work permit had not gone through yet. Do you know how hard it is still to just obtain a working visa for legal immigrants - even to work at some food court restaurant???? If they're going to give free passes to the illegal immigrants who crossed the border without filing paperwork then like I said before they better also give work permits to all the legal immigrants and their family members. I think there should definitely be reforms in the immigration system - i.e. making applying for work visas easier and much, much cheaper, but I don't think that we should just grant every illegal immigrant in this nation a free pass without first putting our foot down and saying, hey, illegal = against the law = there should be consequences when you break the laws of this country where you have decided to settle in. When legal immigrants break the law, they pay fines, get thrown in jail and then shipped back to their own country. When citizens break the law, they pay fines and/or get thrown into jail.

      erg, I just don't get it. But that's my own opinion. Sad thing is, you can't make everyone happy... oh well.
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      Post by veritati » May 8th, '06, 21:56

      I believe that everyone has to take a stand on any issue. You should be either for or against something. There should be no middle ground. People should step out of their comfort zone and face the issue instead of being indifferent or apathetic.

      I am a refugee from Vietnam, and this is my view:

      Illegal aliens (one in every restaurant and deli in NYC) should NOT be granted legal status. Period. If you didn't come here legally, then you shouldn't be here in the first place. I believe it is the illegal aliens who are holding this country back and contributing to the regression of social progress. What do I mean? Well, I am against communism but have somewhat of a socialist mentality - influenced by Marx, Durkheim and Weber. Ideally, we would have a society where everyone contributes to society and lives comfortably (See Japan or Sweden). Poverty should be minimized or eliminated. Illegal aliens' willingness to work for nothing allows those in better positions economically to take advantage of the situation, thus creating an unleveled market economy. Why should I pay someone say $10 an hour when I can hire illegal aliens for $3 an hour? This situation preclude society from enhancing its overall status. Prices and inflation aside (irrelevant), if there are no illegal aliens, society's attitude towards each other would be a lot better. I know I can't live on $3 an hour so I'll pay you the livable rate of $10 an hour. This is only an example, but it illustrates the point that people will have to treat each other fairly and equally when there is a lack of alternatives. So in the end, everyone will be able to earn a competitive wage and the overall economy gets better since when people earn more they spend more. This will promote living by merits and hard work instead of social welfare. If you don't work hard, then it is your fault for your living situation.

      In Japan, there are an abundant of jobs that pay rather well - these jobs might be considered excessive by current American attitude, but it is quite efficient. Everyone has opportunities and choices. Instead of having a gap between the rich and poor, poverty is minimized and everyone can earn a comfortable living. Even high school students can have good paying part-time jobs. And people don't look down on people regardless of jobs, unless they are homeless due to their own unwillingness to work. Why is Japan the world's second largest economy?

      What I want to convey is that illegal aliens create an alternative or loophole in the overall scheme of society that allows people to take advantage of the situation, thus preventing society from progressing to the point where there is minimal poverty and equal standard of living.

      By the way, there is no such thing as illegal immigrants. They are illegal aliens. immigrant entails that they are legal.
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