DramaWiki - Information Repository for Asian Dramas UPDATE

Data, images, links, competition and er other stuff are here.
MoerkJ
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Post by MoerkJ » Jul 3rd, '05, 13:01

yeah, I noticed the blank-line-issue too. So far, I couldn't find a solution to this. (I had only a quick reading at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Section especially the "Section editing" part). My workaround is to edit only the pages as a whole, not the sections. There are barely any advantages of editing single sections. Maybe it can avoid edit conflicts, but I start to doubt that.

I hoped the section formatting could be configured somewhere (maybe in the skin or layout settings). But I'm afraid that a single-line-space is normal because all wikipedia pages I have just checked use this formatting. :| Also after looking at the css file and the html code for a (random) wikipage I couldn't see any specific settings for a section format. Well, I'm not a css expert but the layout uses standard heading settings (e.g. h1, h2, h3, ...) for sections which could be of course tweaked somehow. So far I have tried only the default skin "MonoBook". Maybe the formatting looks better with other skins (which you can set in your preferences). The "MySkin" option also suggests that it is possible to have your own css settings.

...ouch coffee break... :faint:

EDIT: the experts should check out http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Skins

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Post by Ruroshin » Jul 3rd, '05, 23:15

Well honestly its not such a big deal with one or two line spacing. I thought 2 would look better since I always double line space between sections whenever I'm writing formal documentation at work but for the wiki its not so important.

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Post by guenny » Jul 6th, '05, 11:58

I think this "feature" is just a simple way of reducing lots of unnecessary empty lines at the end of an article. You can force a bigger space between content and headline be manipulating your private or the global monobook.css.
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/User:UserName/monobook.css or http://wiki.d-addicts.com/MediaWiki:Monobook.css
I'd suggest adding:

Code: Select all

#bodyContent h1, #bodyContent h2 { margin-bottom:0.6em; margin-top:1em; }
#bodyContent h3,
#bodyContent h4,
#bodyContent h5 {
    margin-bottom: 0.3em; margin-top:0.8em;
}
This should pretty much look like two empty lines.

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Post by MoerkJ » Jul 6th, '05, 16:50

ah, thanks I didn't know you can set your personal formatting by adding it as a subpage to your userpage. :wink:

Indeed, it is rather the responsibility of the skin (css) to take care of the page's formatting details. The editor should provide the content and the wiki does the presentation of it. If you don't like the standard formatting then tweak it. :wink: Just like html editors a wiki will always try to optimize/cleanup the page.. either implicitly (like the elimination of duplicate blank lines) or explicitly by using wikitools or wikibots.

link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:User_style
link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing

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Post by Ruroshin » Jul 6th, '05, 23:40

Yes I agree the CSS should take care of the layout appearance. I've added the margins to the monobook's main css so now it should look like double line spacing for header tags.

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Post by groink » Jul 22nd, '05, 05:09

I've noticed that when I include a ISBN number on a page, wikimedia creates a hyperlink of the number, which links to Special:Booksources. From there, it lists four book sources:

AddALL
PriceSCAN
Barnes & Noble
Amazon.com

Is it possible to add Asian-oriented resources to this list? For example, amazon.com.jp uses a URL in the following format:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4087485099/

where 4087485099 is ISBN 4-08-748509-9.

This would be good for the drama wiki because a large majority of the dramas are also published novels and screenplays, most of them registered with ISBN. The four resources I listed earlier are virtually useless on the drama wiki.

Thanks!

--- groink

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Post by Ruroshin » Jul 22nd, '05, 05:16

groink wrote:I've noticed that when I include a ISBN number on a page, wikimedia creates a hyperlink of the number, which links to Special:Booksources. From there, it lists four book sources:

AddALL
PriceSCAN
Barnes & Noble
Amazon.com

Is it possible to add Asian-oriented resources to this list? For example, amazon.com.jp uses a URL in the following format:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4087485099/

where 4087485099 is ISBN 4-08-748509-9.

This would be good for the drama wiki because a large majority of the dramas are also published novels and screenplays, most of them registered with ISBN. The four resources I listed earlier are virtually useless on the drama wiki.

Thanks!

--- groink
sure I will look into it.

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Post by groink » Jul 25th, '05, 20:47

To all the submitters on WikiDrama/DramaWiki... Would you please create a login account, and use it when making changes/additions to the wiki?

Two reasons: 1) It helps to see who, by name/handle, made the submissions rather than looking at just an IP address. IP addresses also change, so using an IP address to track the user's contributions is not a reliable method. And 2) having your IP address displayed publicly like that is actually a lot less secure for the submitter. The last thing you'd want is for someone out there to create a profile of both your wiki posting and drama downloading habits. The wiki is also being scraped by all the major search engines, which is what a lot of script kids use to obtain functional IP addresses.

--- groink

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Post by MoerkJ » Jul 25th, '05, 21:04

groink wrote:Would you please create a login account, and use it when making changes/additions to the wiki?
Yeah, having an account has so many benefits.
:thumright:

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Post by xiaryx » Jul 31st, '05, 03:45

hey,
I just link all the jdorama discussion thead to wiki using the format Discussion@D-Addicts.com.

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Post by ina » Jul 31st, '05, 10:02

I have to say, I don't like this style of cast listing at all. Example:
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Sekai_no_chuu ... _wo_sakebu

If you want to know what the actors look like, you can always click on the actor link. This cast listing also makes it difficult to add actors, that have minor roles.

can we maybe have a discussion or poll for that?

And I don't understand that some people upload "no picture availabe" images. If there is none availabe, then there doesn't need to be an image.

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Post by groink » Jul 31st, '05, 11:24

ina wrote:I have to say, I don't like this style of cast listing at all. Example:
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Sekai_no_chuu ... _wo_sakebu

If you want to know what the actors look like, you can always click on the actor link. This cast listing also makes it difficult to add actors, that have minor roles.

can we maybe have a discussion or poll for that?

And I don't understand that some people upload "no picture availabe" images. If there is none availabe, then there doesn't need to be an image.
I wholeheartely agree on all points, although I never thought about the complexity of adding additional information to those complex tables. My thought is that I think the dramawiki is becoming too damn graphic intensive. It's nice that one or more of the contributors have broadband Internet access, and more likely the pages load up fast on their end. However, the pages should load FOR EVERYONE in less than two seconds IMHO.

Wiki's are all about quick, organized information. If you look at the major wiki's on the net like Wikipedia, there's very little graphics being used on any given article, but at the same time it give you the information you need. While taking several journalist courses in college (yes, I was going to be a journalist once upon a time), I learned that the best articles are those that do not need imagery to get the idea across.

I think more people should speak up like ina did just now.

--- groink

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Post by MoerkJ » Jul 31st, '05, 13:30

I don't want to start a YT bashing but a wiki is not a homepage. Unfortunately YT turns the wiki too much into a homepage. A few things that shouldn't be done:
- including too much images (up to 20 per page is crazy)
- including reviews from other websites (without consent!?)
- including news from other sites
- creating way too much (sub)stubs that contain no information at all

Yes, a wiki is collection of information linked with each other, and not a photo album. One or two images per page should be more than enough to "assign a face to a name". Official homepages, fansites and galleries contain enough images so we shouldn't include them all into the wiki. The texts should be written by ourselves and not taken from other websites. Information that is not written by ourself should be collected by linking to it. There is no need to copy it into the wiki when we can add links to articles and sites that already exist on the web.

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Post by Ruroshin » Aug 5th, '05, 04:47

Changed the name to DramaWiki.

Added amazon.co.jp to the list of places to get books for the ISBN search.

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Post by donna8157 » Aug 11th, '05, 22:20

I've been adding some entries to WikiDrama and I was wondering if it was possible to add some section in the dramas called "Availibility" ? For instance, whether the drama has been fansubbed or if there is a raw format of it on D-addicts? I think it'd be easy to look up dramas that way especially for people like me who wonder whether or not a certain series is available on torrents.

On Edit: Wow, I remember the first time I went on WikiDrama - the sections were practically empty, but now it's filled up a lot. I might even use it to substitute JDorama for info. :unsure:

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Post by MoerkJ » Aug 11th, '05, 22:41

1. we have already a thread for DramaWiki discussion. :D

2. I think we discussed this before.. and AFAIK we deceided against including any filesharing information or other stuff that puts the wiki into an "illegal" or "grey area" spot. If you search for something to download you can always use the torrent search or the forum search on D-Addicts.

I think, it is not a good idea to link DramaWiki with D-Addicts too strongly. The links to the forum or to torrents at D-Addicts may get outdated if things get deleted, moved or otherwise changed.
..:: ( Clubbox | Wiki | FAQ | [url=irc://irc.rizon.net:6667/d-addicts]IRC[/url] ) ::..

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Post by groink » Aug 12th, '05, 19:49

People,

Please refrain from creating pages for singing groups, such as Kinki Kids and TOKIO. There are a zillion web pages already out on the Internet covering these groups. Quoting MoerkJ from the Kinki Kids page:
MoerkJ wrote:Please link to existing band pages of other wikis instead of creating non-drama related pages here. There is already Womby's JPop Wiki (http://wiki.theppn.org) and there is also an entry at Wikipedia. --MoerkJ 09:04, 29 Jul 2005 (EDT)
Having pages for these groups on DramaWiki aren't necessary.

--- groink

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Post by dochira » Aug 12th, '05, 20:49

groink wrote: Please refrain from creating pages for singing groups, such as Kinki Kids and TOKIO. There are a zillion web pages already out on the Internet covering these groups. Quoting MoerkJ from the Kinki Kids page:
Within the next week or so, I will begin the process of changing the group links to point to Wikipedia (or Womby Wiki) as I find them.

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About that certain guy from iceberri ...

Post by super5 » Aug 21st, '05, 04:53

Sorry if I may sound off topic, but I was wondering who is that guy from the banner that says "FIGHTING" and a bunch of "aja." The reason is that the guy from that banner really does look like me or I do look like him, in a way. I thought it might be from some kind of drama or movie. I would like to check to see who is him.

The banner appears in several of .. iceberri .. conversations. Thank You
Sorry to discuss something different. :D

-super5

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Post by groink » Sep 22nd, '05, 08:08

My gawd... All of a sudden, several bozos are making a mess out of the DramaWiki. People, if you don't know how to work a wiki, please don't attempt to do so.

--- groink

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Post by jholic » Sep 22nd, '05, 09:19

groink wrote:People, if you don't know how to work a wiki, please don't attempt to do so.
--- groink
ha! that's why you don't see me there. :-(

they could at least take the time to look at the HELP file there. even i did that.
Use THUMBS UP/DOWN buttons to KEEP or DELETE posts.
If you see SPAM or ABUSE, use the REPORT button.

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Post by MoerkJ » Sep 22nd, '05, 15:14

jholic wrote:
groink wrote:People, if you don't know how to work a wiki, please don't attempt to do so.
--- groink
ha! that's why you don't see me there. :-(
hmm, yeah there were some ppl (vandals) messing around with DramaWiki lately. But they cannot cause real damage and they get what they deserve. Also I noticed some small edits that were probably made just out of curiousity. Such things and 1st editing steps should better be done in a Wikisandbox. Total n00bs should try the "Preview" button and better avoid pressing "Save". :wink:
The basic wiki editing can be learned in a few minutes. It's very easy.

@potential wikieditors:
Don't get discuraged by groinks words. Every help is appreciated. Not every edit involves wiki-editing skills. Adding or expanding plain text or fixing spelling and grammar is needed too. (For example I really appreciate if somebody corrects my mistakes.) Often pages have gaps that can be easily filled with plain text. Such editing is as easy as writing an e-mail or posting in a forum. If your contributions look weird or unexpected then you can always put {{cleanup}} in the first line. This way your additions are marked as "needing a cleanup" so more experienced editors can improve your input later.

Hint: you can always check what your changes look like by hitting the "Preview" button, If you are satisfied with your edits you can press "Save".

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Post by groink » Sep 29th, '05, 01:11

Per request from MoerkJ...

I'd like to request that the order of information in a drama page follow the given order:

Details - Not moved.

Synopsis - I recommend that the synopsis follow the details because when most people look up a show, they want to know what the show is about, and other content like the cast and production information is secondary. I draw this conclusion based on the idea that more people would bring up a drama page from either the search engines, the wiki search engine, or from clicking on a drama within the artist's page. By having the artist and production information come BEFORE the synopsis, to me, indicates that there's more emphasis on the artists than the actual synopsis. If that's actually true, the site should be called ArtistWiki. As for the overall design of the page, my philosophy on design is that the order of presentation should follow the order of the information's importance. And the most important information should be made available within the initial page on a typical 1024x768 screen without moving the scrollbar in the browser.

Cast - I recommend that the cast follow the synopsis, AND be placed BEFORE the production credits. The idea behind this is that there's heavier need for casting information than production information. There are people who are fans of producers, directors, musicians, etc. However, I'd say 99.99-percent of drama fans' interests weigh heavier towards the cast than the production crew.

Production Credits - Should follow the cast. Reason given above.

Awards & Recognition - Everything up to this point is static information, and there is no dispute over the information's accuracy. This section should be the least important of the static information. As for the information itself, it should be any of the following: awards, appearances (ex: showing at a festival), and appointments (ex: drama selected as official drama of Ethiopia).

Reviews - This is where a person's opinions should go. Opinions should always be secondary to static information. Professors would tell you the same thing when designing a term paper or outline.... You cover all the facts first, and then you give your opinion.

Notes/Trivia - I consider stuff like this to be the same as footnotes in a term paper. Things like references, did you know? info, and other bits of information that really have no relationship with the actual context of the drama itself, but it is still related in a way. That's why it should be on the bottom of the page.

--- groink
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Post by MoerkJ » Sep 29th, '05, 04:56

Thanks groink, I hope a little discussion here helps improving the wiki a big. :) In the following I'll comment some of your suggestions and add some random things aswell... (mostly to prevent edit wars and ugly formatting)... take them as suggestions for further discussion.

general opinion about page re-formatting just to achieve a certain uniform look should be avoided at the moment (especially if pages are already fully specified) because there is no consensus about a general format. There would be so many exceptions and there have been so many format changes over that last months that I believe there won't be any general format in the near future. It doesn't make much sense to enforce an uniform look (or strict format). Plain reformatting is a waste of energy and design taste differs anyway. You'll notice that if you compare the page formatting of the japanese, korean and chinese/tw/sg sections.

a "new" page format if it ever exists should be applied on stub pages first.

empty or sparse sections should be avoided because they look awful. Examples:
  • Reviews are an exception to the rule and thus review sections should be created only if somebody actually writes a review. If you link an external review it should be rather linked in the External Links section at the page bottom. Fact: we have about 1000 drama pages and about 10 self-written reviews. Almost all of them were written before the wiki existed.
  • CF Sections are optional and should only created if the artist has appeared in CFs. Empty CF sections should be not created.
  • Awards sections (as they are called until today.. what other recognitions besides awards are noteworthy anyway... nominations? pfft.. appearances? pfft who care... appointments? whats that, please specify) are optional and should only be created on artist pages. Awards Sections should only be created if an artist has received more than one award. Single awards should rather be listed in the Trivia Section.
Trivia Sections: in the beginning we put the trivia section towards the bottom of the artist pages. But often trivia sections were put after the profiles as a kind of addendum to the artist's profile. (e.g. family, education, talents, hobbies, award(s), other noteworthy facts).

Credits (for drama pages) should be split into two sections: Cast and Production Crew or something similar (as groink suggested)

Synopsis sections (for drama pages) were usually placed behind the cast list in the past. Indeed they could be placed more towards the top (e.g. after the profile). But I wouldn't go and reformat pages. This can be done step-by-step through normal expanding or updating of pages (if there is a consensus).

well, I have some more, smaller things to suggest (like ordering things inside Profile and External Links section) but I better stop here for today.

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Post by Ruroshin » Sep 29th, '05, 05:46

groink wrote: Synopsis - I recommend that the synopsis follow the details
yes I agree, its probably more logical that way.

MoerkJ wrote: Synopsis sections (for drama pages) were usually placed behind the cast list in the past. Indeed they could be placed more towards the top (e.g. after the profile). But I wouldn't go and reformat pages. This can be done step-by-step through normal expanding or updating of pages (if there is a consensus).
Also agreed, just apply it to new pages and progressively change existing ones as we edit them because change them all now is a major task.

We don't have to be very strict as far as formating goes as long as information is well organised and easy to locate then I'll be happy.

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Post by groink » Sep 29th, '05, 06:41

Yes, yes! If a section is empty, I don' t think it should even be included.

A couple of nit-picky thing I've been changing along the way... I've been changing "Broadcasted by" to "Broadcast network" simply because the word "broadcasted" actually isn't a gramatically correct word (although a lot of people on the Internet use it.) Use "broadcast" instead when using it in a past tense sentence (ex: "This show was broadcast live all over the world.")

In addition, I attached "network" because companies like Fuji TV and TBS are actually broadcast networks. I've also seen "TV station" being used instead. But in the communications field, stations are considered smaller entities to TV networks (ex: KIKU-TV is a TV station.) Wikipedia follows this rule as well when discussing U.S. TV networks and their affiliates.

I've been removing some profile fields if they're empty. For example, not all female artists disclose their personal information (dimensions, weight, blood type, etc.) I think the others will agree that empty fields make the page an incomplete feel, whereas removing the empty fields make the page feel complete. Also, not all fields fit all people. Having a "Marriage status" field should only be used if the artist is actually married. Even if an artist is divorced, I don't think the artist would actually appreciate it if he/she were referred to as a divorcee. I think stuff like that borders the TMI factor (too much information.)

Last, in reference to appointments. Actually, it doesn't fit dramas, so I should've removed that from the list. But, artists do receive appointments. A HUGE one is Yonekura Ryoko's appointment as an ambassador to the Japan/Korea friendship effort, which is a very big deal in the geinoukai. So it is very important that it be included in her page.

That's it... for now!

--- groink

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Post by groink » Sep 30th, '05, 04:06

EDIT - Forget about the request below. I used the Wikipedia sandbox.

Hey, guys!

Is it possible to put up a sandbox on DramaWiki? I'd like to start experimenting with some template ideas, but in the process I don't want to create unnecessary new pages. I like the following Wikipedia sandbox:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sandbox

--- groink

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Post by MoerkJ » Sep 30th, '05, 08:26

Actually in most cases you don't really need a sandbox.

I prefer using the PREVIEW function of MediaWiki. Just edit a page (preferably DramaWiki's testing page) and use the preview button instead of the save button. This is perfect enough to see what your edits may look like. :wink:

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Post by SeoulxKorean » Oct 16th, '05, 21:06

I am confused as to how the DramaWiki works exactly... I mean can ANYONE just post/edit/delete content on it? It seems a bit risky to me... Also, is there a way to upload images as something like a part of an image gallery for specific actors/actresses/singers?

I have seen wikipedia but never noticed those features... Anyhow, I'm still curious as to how this all works ^_^

I'd like to contribute but am interested in how this all works. Thanks.
Last edited by SeoulxKorean on Oct 17th, '05, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by groink » Oct 16th, '05, 21:11

SeoulxKorean wrote:I am confused as to how the DramaWiki works exactly... I mean can ANYONE just post/edit/delete content on it? It seems a bit risky to me... Also, is there a way to upload images as something like a part of an image gallery for specific actors/actresses/singers?

I'd like to contribute but am interested in how this all works. Thanks.
1) Yes, anyone can change just about anything on DramaWiki. Although it is risky, the system does correct itself, as people like myself constantly monitor the information, and make corrections as needed.

2) Please do not start up any galleries. A couple of people did this early on, and the admins expressed their displeasure over this practice. If you read earlier posts in this topic, you'll see them. The DramaWiki is all about information, and graphics should be used as little as possible. Wikipedia, the rule-of-thumb system we try to follow, has virtually no graphics on any of their drama pages.

--- groink

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Post by groink » Oct 16th, '05, 21:19

One more comment I wanted to make... It's funny that JDorama.com decided against opening their database to allow changes by the general public. Genma thought that this openess would allow for invalid information to pour into the database.

DramaWiki has proven this idea to be totally flawed. Because of its openess, there are stronger checks and balances throughout the database, making it the most accurate database of Asian drama information on the Internet. Working on DramaWiki, I've learned that JDorama.com's closed system is heavily flawed with mistakes. And those mistakes will stay there as long as they keep up with the closed system, or when the mods get around to making the corrections. And there's TONS of mistakes. Genma should re-think his site's approach for the future.

--- groink

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Post by SeoulxKorean » Oct 16th, '05, 22:39

Thanks for the quick reply. I understand now a bit more about all of this. I fully understand the reason for not wanting image galleries but I thought it'd just be nice if there were maybe 2-3 additional pictures for each actor/actress/singer to better portray what they look like.

I really do commend d-addicts and their work thus far with all of this.
Last edited by SeoulxKorean on Oct 17th, '05, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by groink » Oct 17th, '05, 00:12

Most of you who participate on the DramaWiki may not have noticed a change in how we're now handling stubs, or pages that are incomplete and need more content.

This past week, MoerkJ created a series of stubs that sort better. You can find out all the details via this link:

http://wiki.d-addicts.com/DramaWiki:Stub_categories

So please avoid using {{stub}} and instead use the newly created stub categories.

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Post by groink » Nov 7th, '05, 09:57

Question: Why is YT changing the date formatting on everything? In the United States, the format is Month Date, Year. YT is changing it to Day Month Year.

JUST LEAVE THE DATE FORMATTING ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I choose to use Month Date, Year, don't change it! Jesus...

--- groink
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Post by groink » Nov 7th, '05, 10:30

Y_T wrote:reverted to your crappy ancient standards
On behalf of everyone in the United States and Canada, we salute you...

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--- groink

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Post by Lowest » Nov 7th, '05, 11:02

Now now children. Though your m/d/y is just backwards :P

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Post by Ruroshin » Nov 7th, '05, 11:19

Lets try and avoid editing wars.

Please use international date format.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/iso-date

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Post by groink » Nov 7th, '05, 11:43

Ruroshin wrote:Please use international date format.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/iso-date
Cool! Thanks, Ruroshin. In accordance with ISO, the formatting I'll be using from now on is Year Month Day (ex: 2005 November 7), which is the format I actually use in the US military.
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Post by mieko » Nov 9th, '05, 03:27

Since my experiences with J-Dorama.com was less then encouraging i think i will start to transfer the info on the 80's shows i have from my site and bunch more that i haven't listed
and make wiki-pages since i will eventualy seed them here. Groink already beat me to the punch for Abunai Deka :)

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Post by groink » Nov 16th, '05, 10:51

I think it is time that an account/login be required in order to make changes to the wiki. The categories are being targeted by wiki spammers, using the CSS hidden spam trick:

http://wiki.chongqed.org//CSSHiddenSpam

--- groink
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Post by gryzze » Nov 16th, '05, 11:13

groink wrote:I think it is time that an account/login be required in order to make changes to the wiki.
Sounds like a good idea.

Lately I've been using the wiki instead of JDorama.com, you've done a great job everyone! :-)

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Post by Ruroshin » Nov 16th, '05, 11:15

groink wrote:I think it is time that an account/login be required in order to make changes to the wiki. The categories are being targeted by wiki spammers, using the CSS hidden spam trick:

http://wiki.chongqed.org//CSSHiddenSpam

--- groink
Thanks groink...and done :thumleft:

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Post by Zorktero » Nov 27th, '05, 12:59

It seems that it isn't possible to search the wiki using japanese characters...

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Post by MoerkJ » Nov 27th, '05, 14:44

Zorktero wrote:It seems that it isn't possible to search the wiki using japanese characters...
I played around a little with the search function. I tested korean and japanese words. It seems that the search function doesn't support substrings (word fragments) at all. You have to enter complete words, no matter which language or how long the words are.
XD

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Post by groink » Nov 27th, '05, 21:46

MoerkJ wrote:
Zorktero wrote:It seems that it isn't possible to search the wiki using japanese characters...
I played around a little with the search function. I tested korean and japanese words. It seems that the search function doesn't support substrings (word fragments) at all. You have to enter complete words, no matter which language or how long the words are.
XD
Yes. I search for Kana characters all the time on DramaWiki. What WON'T work is when the artist's name in Kana is broken up. For example, it'll find "酒井法子" because it's stored on DramaWiki like that, but it will not find "酒井 法子" or even "酒井". On the Japanese Wikipedia, it's about 50-50 since the writers there are split on how they write the names.

--- groink

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Post by groink » Dec 10th, '05, 10:00

People,

When you create a new artist in the DramaWiki, PLEASE pretty please enter at least one drama the artist has been in or will be in? Personally, I don't see the logic in creating a new page for an artist when the creator doesn't even know what drama he/she has been in. Creating incomplete pages of this level forces the rest of us to research the artist in order to determine whether or not the page should be kept (remember that only artists who have been in dramas are allowed.)

--- groink

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Post by groink » Dec 17th, '05, 23:00

Here are some web pages that explain how to properly capitalize words in the English language:

Capitalization: Titles and Organizations
http://www.uhv.edu/ac/student/writing/g ... 020105.htm

When to Capitalize Names, Professional Titles, and Family Relationships
http://www.uhv.edu/ac/student/writing/g ... 022305.htm

Hope it helps people who write English-written titles for dramas and such.

--- groink
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Post by groink » Dec 19th, '05, 02:46

Since Ruroshin implemented the Kunrei-shiki (ISO 3602) as the romaji standard for DramaWiki, we should start following it.

Keep in mind the following tips:

1. Ignore how people verbally pronounce the names and other words. Write the romaji as it is WRITTEN in kana. Yes, yes, there are characters you can't even hear (ex: Youko (蓉子(ようこ)) written as Yoko seeing you can't hear the "う" sound.) But remember that, like your own language, the Japanese don't just throw in characters for the heck of it. The characters have meaning, so leaving out characters does a dis-service to the artists.

2. Also, I suggest ignoring how people pronounce words because some people write romaji the way they hear it spoken, and that's WRONG. For example, just a few minutes ago someone changed a character's name ハル from HARU to HALU. Although most of you westerners' ears hear it with the "L" sound, it is a fact that the sound for ル is between an "R" and a "L", and in some way sound even like a "D" sound. That's why you must follow Kunrei-shiki so that we all get the kana-to-romaji down right.

3. When capitalizing titles of dramas, capitalize only the first letter of the first word in the name, and also capitalize all nouns. DO NOT capitalize particles (ex: no, wa, ka, etc.) Particles in Japanese are basically the same as the English equivalent (of, the, and, a, etc.), all of which we do not capitalize either. It basically follows the same rules as in the English language (refer to the previous post I made on capitalization.)

The rest is off Wikipedia:

4. When he (へ) is used as a particle it is written e not he.

5. When ha (は) is used as a particle it is written wa not ha.

6. When wo (を) is used as a particle it is written o not wo.

7. Syllabic n (ん) is written as n before consonants but as n' before vowels and y.

As for using romaji characters for representing long vowels, it may do some good to use them because it does give us a clue how to further pronounce the characters. However, the search technology availabe via DramaWiki, as well as Google and Yahoo, make a distinction between the short o and the long ô or ō seeing they have different ASCII values. For example, if someone wrote on a page "Emperor Ingyō", someone searching for "Emperor Ingyo" might not find it, and vise versa. So unless others object, maybe we should stick with using the basic ASCII characters and leave out the long vowels.

--- groink

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Post by Seghal » Dec 19th, '05, 12:11

The long vowels should be written as they are in the Japanese language:
long a -> aa
long i -> ii
long u -> uu
long e -> ei (in some rare cases ee)
long o -> ou (in some rare cases oo)

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Post by groink » Dec 19th, '05, 20:14

Seghal wrote:The long vowels should be written as they are in the Japanese language:
long a -> aa
long i -> ii
long u -> uu
long e -> ei (in some rare cases ee)
long o -> ou (in some rare cases oo)
I've already run into this in a couple of situations on DramaWiki. Oomori MIka (大森美香), where the kanji 大 is broken down to おお in hiragana. However, I still left it as Omori just for the sake of compatibility with searching, but I intend on going back to it and changing it to Oomori.

Another situation was Ooshima Youko (大島蓉子). Here, someone had her down as Ojima Yoko. Her name in hiragana is actually おおしま ようこ (per ja.wikipedia), so I haven't the foggiest idea how Ojima was generated. If you used the incorrect romaji, you'd end up with the hiragana おじまよこ, which in turn converts to the kanji 尾島横, having a totally different meaning from her correctly written name. That's where I think we're really screwing up the artists' names.

Keep in mind, everyone, that even the Japanese people use the DramaWiki. In several ways, the DramaWiki packs a lot more information for certain dramas than the Japanese Wikipedia. We're therefore among the leaders of the drama community WORLDWIDE when it comes to providing information. We should start become more sensative to the accuracy of how we write the drama and artist names.

--- groink

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Post by dochira » Dec 19th, '05, 22:09

groink wrote: Another situation was Ooshima Youko (大島蓉子). Here, someone had her down as Ojima Yoko. Her name in hiragana is actually おおしま ようこ (per ja.wikipedia), so I haven't the foggiest idea how Ojima was generated. If you used the incorrect romaji, you'd end up with the hiragana おじまよこ, which in turn converts to the kanji 尾島横, having a totally different meaning from her correctly written name. That's where I think we're really screwing up the artists' names.
The problem is that 島 (shima) can be read as "jima" under certain circumstances. Example (飯島直子 Iijima Naoko). But incidentally, typing "おおじま" (o-o-ji-ma) yields 大島. :unsure: But I would definitely go with what ja.wikipedia says. If it was Oojima, someone would have corrected it there by now, right?

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Post by groink » Dec 19th, '05, 22:43

dochira wrote:But I would definitely go with what ja.wikipedia says. If it was Oojima, someone would have corrected it there by now, right?
Oh, man, some people think I'm the edit nazi on DramaWiki. Some of the people on ja.Wikipedia are even more ruthless when it comes to edits. So, you're right in that if you see something there that's been un-changed on ja.Wikipedia for a period of time, rest assured it is probably correct. That's actually one of the good things about wiki's (unlike the negative news that has surfaced in recent months.)

Going back to Oojima... Researching a bit, it appears that's how they spell it in Okinawa. I have some friends who are Okinawan and do speak the dialect, so I'll have to consult with them. So in reality, Ooshima and Oojima are both one in the same.

I think it comes down to one of three factors. And each of them should be executed in the following order:

1. If the artist's OFFICIAL web site actually provide the hiragana and/OR the romaji of their own name, we should use it. We should not rely on a fan-based site or other unofficial sites. A good example of this is Itoh Misaki, where on her official site she actually spells her name as "Ito Misaki" (いと みさき), although "most" people with the surname 伊東 (いとう) spells it as "Itou". I can't think of any guidelines (Kunrei-shiki, Hepburn, etc.) that would've generated "Itoh". Earlier, someone actually moved her page to Ito Misaki, but we stopped it because at the time the entire Internet used "Itoh", and we wanted to keep it like that for search compatibility. But now, I'm thinking we should actually move "Itoh Misaki" to "Ito Misaki".

2. If an official web site doesn't give us the hiragana or romaji, use the hiragana of the artist as it is recorded on ja.Wikipedia. Another example of Itoh is Itoh Atsushi (伊藤淳史). The surname is 伊藤, which is different from Misaki's. I don't have a link for his official web site, so I checked ja.Wikipedia. They have his name pronounced as いとう あつし, which would be Itou Atsushi. On Google, Itoh is favored a bit more than Itou but not by a huge margin. But, there are several web sites that uses Itou Atsushi so the use of that romaji isn't wrong.

3. If the artist is not on ja.Wikipedia, then the Kunrei-shiki (ISO 3602) guidelines should be used.

--- groink

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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 21st, '05, 12:11

groink wrote:1. If the artist's OFFICIAL web site actually provide the hiragana and/OR the romaji of their own name, we should use it. We should not rely on a fan-based site or other unofficial sites. A good example of this is Itoh Misaki, where on her official site she actually spells her name as "Ito Misaki" (いと みさき), although "most" people with the surname 伊東 (いとう) spells it as "Itou". I can't think of any guidelines (Kunrei-shiki, Hepburn, etc.) that would've generated "Itoh". Earlier, someone actually moved her page to Ito Misaki, but we stopped it because at the time the entire Internet used "Itoh", and we wanted to keep it like that for search compatibility. But now, I'm thinking we should actually move "Itoh Misaki" to "Ito Misaki".
In this particular case, I don't think that the fact that it is spelled "Ito" on her official website means that the hiragana transcription is いと. Most Japanese people prefer to simplify the romaji spell of their name to match Western pronunciation. (example : 安藤 is often spelled as "Ando" although the hiragana transcription is あんどう - A-n-do-u)
A name written in kanjis has an unique hiragana transcription, and the one written on the Japanese wikipedia is the correct one. For the romaji transcriptions, maybe could we list all possible transcriptions...

take a look to this one : http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Andou_Ryouji

However, I think that the title of each article should match the transcription written on the artist's official website, if provided.

(I don't know if this post matches the conversation but anyway...)
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Post by MoerkJ » Dec 21st, '05, 17:49

Le Piaf wrote:take a look to this one : http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Andou_Ryouji
It's probably the best idea to list all possible correct transcriptions... but perhaps the formatting should be improved a little... see below. :roll

I think there is nothing like a "correct" romanization, especially for names and for certain languages like Korean for example. Too often there are different correct transcriptions possible for various reasons (e.g. dialects, different romanization standards, and of course exceptions). Looks like it's not much different for the Japanese language either. Just chose the "most common" transcription for the title if there is no "official" one. Not everybody here is an expert in asian languages. If there are different possible romanizations then just list them all (see below). I have been dealing with that for Korean artists names for some months now because for the Korean language exist different romanizations. And especially when it comes to names you cannot follow any rules but have to stick to commonly used romanizations. To solve this problem i usually add two romanizations and I'm using the first one for the page title (but starting all syllables uppercase and without using dashes). The perverse actually is that the 1st one is the "commonly used one" (which is silimliar to a somewhat simplified McCune-Reischauer Romanization) where the 2nd one I add is acctually a (hopefully) correct transcription of the officially used Revised Korean Romanization. :sweat:

Technically it doesn't matter what the page title is. Through redirections a wikipage can have multiple names, i.e. a primary one (which is displayed) and all existing redirections. If you move a page the old title still exists as a redirect if it's not deleted. Often this is a welcome feature to solve naming problems. If a page has a correct but complicated or even uncommon name you can always reach it easily through simple redirects.

When you list all possible correct(!) transcriptions then you can still find the page through a search. You don't really need a direct search hit ("Go") when looking up information. Other big info services, like IMDb.com list up to a dozen alternative artists names in an artist profile (example: 5 names for Chow Yun-Fat). On DramaWiki this could be done similarly with an "Also listed as:" profile entry. Of course you'll have a problem if you want to romanize a name (or word) yourself because it is nowhere listed yet. :| But that should be not problem either, because...

You can mark the pages as stub (e.g. with the {jactor-stub} template in the Andou Ryouji example) or add the {cleanup} template if something on a page is incorrect, incomplete or if you are unsure whether the information is correct. This way it is easier to spot these pages for people who know better, especially if you use the categorized stubs(!). Actually a lot more pages should be tagged as stubs. IMHO, every page that is not "finished" yet or contains unvalidated info should be marked as stub. Also use the talk page of an article to point out and discuss these problems or uncertainties.

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Post by groink » Dec 21st, '05, 21:11

Okay, we're getting closer to a resolution...

Taking Andou-san's page as an example, let's see if the following format works for you guys:

Name (Kanji/kana): 安藤亮司 (あんどう りょうじ)
Name (romaji): Andou Ryouji / Ando Ryoji
Alias/nicknames:
Birth name:
Profession: Actor
Date of birth: November 8th, 1976
Birthplace: Osaka Prefecture
Height: 170cm
Weight: 58kg
Star Sign:
Blood Type:
Talent Agency: Watanabe Entertainment

In other words, rather than jamming ALL his names and aliases into a single field, we should break it down and organize them in this fashion. My organizational thoughts work more like a relational database, which is why I can up with the above. If we jam mutiple things into a single field, it looks really sloppy.

Also keep in mind that not all the fields are required for every artist. If, for example, you don't know the person's birth name, rather than leaving it blank, just don't add the field. That's why I've been deleting blank fields on some of the artists. I just left the fields there blank on purpose so that you can see what other possible fields can be added.

I also think it's a GREAT idea that the furigana was added (the kana in parenthesis.) It further supports the romaji in case there is any debate. But once again, add the furigana ONLY if it was obtained from a reliable source, such as the official web site of that artist, or on ja.Wikipedia if it has been sitting on their page for "awhile" without debate or change. What we DO NOT want is for someone to, as it was mentioned earlier, take the romaji and covert IT to hiragana and post it (like the "Ito Misaki" example.)

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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 21st, '05, 22:13

Take a look by yourself :
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Andou_Ryouji -- classic example
http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Saeko -- example with multiple "name" fields

Sorry for playing with the wiki database like that but I think that the best way to have an opinion is to have concrete examples.

@MoerkJ : I'll consider the stub / cleanup tags later, as soon as I'll understand how it works. :D

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Post by groink » Dec 21st, '05, 22:21

Le Piaf wrote: http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Saeko -- example with multiple "name" fields
Hot dang!!!! That's EXACTLY what I was aiming for! I think it looks great.

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Post by MoerkJ » Dec 21st, '05, 23:26

yep, looks good. It's simple and straighforward. :thumleft:
also much better than putting it into complicated tables (templates) like on Wikipedia.

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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 23rd, '05, 00:18

groink wrote:Cool! Thanks, Ruroshin. In accordance with ISO, the formatting I'll be using from now on is Year Month Day (ex: 2005 November 7), which is the format I actually use in the US military.
Sorry to reopen this problem, but should a "non-ambiguous" date formatting ("December 22nd, 2005", "22nd December 2005", "2005 December 22") be preferable to a "triple-number" date formatting (12-22-2005, 22-12-2005, 2005-12-22) ?
I just think that it's easier to read/understand...
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Post by gryzze » Dec 23rd, '05, 00:25

I thought YYYY-MM-DD was the format to use in the wiki. I'm not sure though.

Personally I prefer that format.. In what way is it ambiguous? :unsure:

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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 23rd, '05, 00:41

gryzze wrote:I thought YYYY-MM-DD was the format to use in the wiki. I'm not sure though.

Personally I prefer that format.. In what way is it ambiguous? :unsure:
I think It is still more difficult to guess that 2005-12-11 is December 11th, 2005 (could be interpreted as "November 12th, 2005" by an French newbie for example) than if it was written "December 11th, 2005" or "2005, December 11th" (you can notice that the last one is still following the year-month-day format).
It's only my own opinion...
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Post by MoerkJ » Dec 23rd, '05, 00:42

there is no strict rule but we mostly use the "Month DD, YYYY" format for birthdates (or inside text paragraphs) and the ISO format (YYYY-MM-DD) in citations and for air dates (e.g. for time ranges or for timestamps in tabellaric displays and lists like episode ratings).

If you use YYYY-MM-DD formatted dates in ranges or in lists it is very unlikely that you can confuse day and month. For single dates you may use the "Month DD, YYYY" if you want.

So we use actually both, but for different purposes. :|

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Post by groink » Dec 23rd, '05, 00:52

Le Piaf wrote:Sorry to reopen this problem, but should a "non-ambiguous" date formatting ("December 22nd, 2005", "22nd December 2005", "2005 December 22") be preferable to a "triple-number" date formatting (12-22-2005, 22-12-2005, 2005-12-22) ?
I just think that it's easier to read/understand...]
Actually, I agree with you... I was brought up with the US/English method of dating, which is month, date, year. It's not just me either... Even the headstones on virtually all the cemetaries use that format.

However, we're now living in a technological world. When I started programming years ago, I started using the YYYY-MM-DD format because it actually sorts better than other formats (and it is Year-2000 compliant.) For example, if you placed the dates in your filenames, for example:

2005-12-22-Jonie_Loves_Chachi.mpg
2005-12-29-Charlies_Angels.mpg
2006-01-06-Dallas.mpg

The files sorted in ascending order would have the earliest file date surface to the top. Now, if you took the style that most people in the world use - DD Month Year - Or any non-ambiguous style for that matter, then sorting would be anything but logically in order because letters and number together don't sort well:

6 January 2006-Jonie_Loves_Chachi.mpg
22 December 2005-Charlies_Angels.mpg
29 December 2005-Dallas.mpg

I believe it was uses like sorting and filing that made the ISO committee settle on the YYYY-MM-DD format.

That's the technological reason... The DramaWiki reason for adapting ISO is that Ruroshin had to settle on SOME KIND of a standard that is already established on the Internet, after folks like myself and other authors started fighting over the formatting style. I think if he put it up to a vote, it would cause a war, and I would be deep in it. One author in particular started changing my dates on several of the articles just for the f**k of it. Besides DramaWiki, Wikipedia itself uses the ISO standards for all of their date formatting. And even if you look at the various Japanese web sites, you'll see that they use the ISO standard. For example, NHK and Fuji TV use the ISO standard on all of their web pages:

2005年12月19日 (taken from Fuji TV's page)
2006年4月1日 (taken from NHK's page)

where 年=year, 月 or moon=month, and 日 or day=date.

Even the Japanese Wikipedia uses ISO - even for birthdates. Looking up Sakai Noriko's page, it shows her birthdate as 1971年2月14日.



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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 23rd, '05, 01:04

Sorry for the confusion... Actually, I wasn't talking about the order, but about the use of words with letters for the month. I was only thinking that writing the month in letters ("December" or just "Dec" for the 12th month) could disambiguish (sorry, I don't know if this word exists) a little bit the date.
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Post by groink » Dec 27th, '05, 00:16

Le Piaf wrote:Sorry for the confusion... Actually, I wasn't talking about the order, but about the use of words with letters for the month. I was only thinking that writing the month in letters ("December" or just "Dec" for the 12th month) could disambiguish (sorry, I don't know if this word exists) a little bit the date.
--
Le Piaf
I really don't see any problem interpreting the ISO date format. When you read it from left-to-right, it is Year-Month-Day. I also don't find it necessary to add multiple date formats on a single article. Trust me on this... Everyone who reads the DramaWiki will "get it" after reading just one page.

--- groink

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Le Piaf
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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 27th, '05, 00:51

groink wrote:Trust me on this... Everyone who reads the DramaWiki will "get it" after reading just one page.
I think you're right on this point.
It's only that this date format is so "computer-oriented"... :sweat: Looks like a mysql date format...
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Post by ina » Dec 27th, '05, 21:11

I think the ISO format just works best. Since people are using different date formats anyway, there will always be people who need to get used to these format.

I grew up with DD-MM-YYYY, so the American format confused me a lot at first, but YYYY-MM-DD is easy to get used to.

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Post by gryzze » Dec 28th, '05, 02:05

I have a question...

After I've updated/replaced an image, how can I force all the thumbnails of it to update as well?

EDIT: It seems to have fixed itself. Is there some sort of delay?

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Post by MoerkJ » Dec 28th, '05, 02:54

gryzze wrote:EDIT: It seems to have fixed itself. Is there some sort of delay?
Most of the "operations" of the Wiki are delayed. What you do is apply changes to the data base (in wikicode). The wiki software has to render the (html)-pages, scale the images, update references (e.g. for categories pages) and resolve dependencies (e.g. when rendering templates), pre-render the html pages again (also for different skins) etc. Sometimes if the server is busy it takes some time until the rendering is done. Once I went nuts because a page didn't disappeared in the category list after I deleted it. I waited several minutes and nothing helped. Later I learned how to purge a page and force a page update. (See it update button I added on the Requested for deletion cat page.) I guess we all have to learn these lessons. :lol

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Post by gryzze » Dec 28th, '05, 03:03

:lol Thanks for the info MoerkJ...

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Post by Le Piaf » Dec 31st, '05, 10:10

Having trouble finding how to read a Japanese name in kanjis because it's not in Wikipedia ?

The following link may help you a little bit : http://d.hatena.ne.jp/

Just copy-paste the name in the search box at the top of the page and the hiragana transcription may appear somewhere in the result page. It generally works with actors/actresses and sometimes works with staff members. And sometimes there are also some information behind the result link.
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Post by yt_toshi » Jan 1st, '06, 09:36

I don't know if this has been addressed before, but what are the standards for listing movies that the actor/actress has been involved in in a wiki?

Since it's suppose to be tailored to the English speaking community, I would like to know:

1. Should the movie listing include the Japanese/Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese names of the movie or just the translated name of the movie itself in English?
2. Should links to movie databases like imdb be allowed as part of the listing or should it be left out?

I'm asking these questions because as I'm adding information about some artist, I wasn't sure how to list the movies appropriately.
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Post by Ruroshin » Jan 1st, '06, 11:32

yt_toshi wrote: 1. Should the movie listing include the Japanese/Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese names of the movie or just the translated name of the movie itself in English?
Preferably Romanised or Translated name for movies.
yt_toshi wrote: 2. Should links to movie databases like imdb be allowed as part of the listing or should it be left out?
Yes, its a good idea to externally link to imdb or other movie databases.

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Post by MoerkJ » Jan 1st, '06, 17:31

Ruroshin wrote:
yt_toshi wrote:1. Should the movie listing include the Japanese/Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese names of the movie or just the translated name of the movie itself in English?
Preferably Romanised or Translated name for movies.
I'd prefer the "official international" title of the movie (if there exists one).
IMDb.com lists usually many titles of a movie (e.g. romanized original title, literal translation, and "official" title(s) defined by international distributor(s)).
To the english speaking people (our target audience) the movies are most known by its "official international" titles. When we link to IMDb entries then that one popular title should be enough.

Btw, a lot of popular movies are also listed at Wikipedia which might be another good site to link movies.

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Post by techie » Jan 9th, '06, 02:16

I just made little tribute addition to the wiki... hmm my first indeed.

For the movies its not hard to find because alot of the actors/actresses are mentioned in other wiki pages as well around the web, and the bigger once have both romanized and kana versions of the titles.

If any one want sto slap me for poor editing in the wiki, do so now
The addition I made was Mui Anita under HK Actresses.
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