Are karaoke FX possible with softsubs?

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suketeru
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Are karaoke FX possible with softsubs?

Postby suketeru » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:09 am

hello ^_^
I've only seriously softsubbed 3 episodes of a drama so far (mostly self-taught), and thought I'd try and take another step into fansubbing: karaoke.

I've read about this in several forums. Some people say karaoke FX work on softsubs, others say they don't. Well, mine don't XD
I did the timing using substation alpha and later used aegisub for styles (I can't for the life of me get styles to work on SSA -__-). I didn't use any complex FX, only k in ssa and K in ass. They both show nicely on VDmod, but a normal player shows a static line with half of it styled as if already sung and the other as if not.

So yeah, that was the main question. maybe I'm asking too much of softsubs?
thank you ^_^

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Postby Puppet Princess » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

.SRT files do not support any sort of style tags. .ASS is a different story... It supports tags... though actual FX will probably make everything run in slow motion because it's a lot of data to precess in each millisecond. Granted, I've never tested this theory since I try to avoid provoking my computer into crashing. It will for sure put strain on things in programs like aegisub and vdubmod... so logically natural playback would have issues too.

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Re: Are karaoke FX possible with softsubs?

Postby slaw » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:46 pm

suketeru wrote: They both show nicely on VDmod, but a normal player shows a static line with half of it styled as if already sung and the other as if not.


That's probably because you have turned on "Pre-buffer subtitles" option in Direct VobSub Filter. Turn it off (Direct VobSub Properties [you should have green arow in systray during playing movie with subtitles - simply click on it] then go to the "Misc" tab and unmark "Pre-buffer subtitles option). It should work just fine after that.
If you're using Media Player Classic (it has build-n Direct VobSub) you should go to Options - Subtitles, and set "Number of subpictures to buffer ahead" to 0 - the same effect.

In general if your computer is fast enough to render efects from SSA/ASS scripts in real time, then you can say that karaoke FX are possible with softsubs.

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Postby suketeru » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:16 pm

@Puppet Princess:
Yes, Aegisub has a little trouble with just k & K. when i tried adding other fx to see what they did it went wacko XD VDmod works better, but i can hear the computer fan increasing speed when i use it.

@slaw:
I'm on the verge of tears!!! it worked (how tiny things can make one happy) ^_^ thank you for the tips.

with your last comment though, if one plans on distributing softsubs I guess it is usually preferable not to include karaoke fx , since one can't know what computer users have. can't expect everyone to have the latest technologies. i think i read somewhere something about having at least 1.5 GHz -probably referred to an intel pentium 4 though since i think it was an old post.

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Postby ethidda » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:05 pm

Yes, that's because doing the actual effects take a lot of mathematical computation for where the letters are and then graphical computation for putting them onto the video. This is why Puppet said that usually, you hardsub karaoke effects, since it's basically impossible to get anything fancy to play in realtime.

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Postby suketeru » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:20 pm

yes of course, maths has to complicate everything ! but where would we be without it (^_^)v yeah i think i exaggerated when i wanted to try out the \t function XD
but then, how do subbers preview their work before hardsubbing karaoke when they use more intrinsic fx? do they go on a write the code-hardsub-preview cycle?

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Postby ethidda » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:56 pm

Some effects are just other effects with different colors, sizes, etc. So the fansubber already knows what it looks like. If not, then you either live with it being super slow (which is okay if you have a newer computer) or hardsub a portion of it (for example, 15 sec out of a 2 min song) and see what it's like). In general, hardsubbers (should) always look at their subbed video before distributing it, and a surprising amount of videos actually get encoded many, many times before being distributed.

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Postby zeldAIS » Thu May 01, 2008 2:44 pm

actually, complex karaoke effects are possible in softsubs. I've watched some .mkv muxes in other anime fansub groups that i'm quite sure they are softsubs (checked the streams myself). Though mostly, the effects most of the time stays away from \t as much as possible (mostly \fad or \move, etc)

most of the karaokes i make, \t is very overused XD so most of the time, i encode a sampler first and show it to the coordinator of the project. As it'll prolly be lagging if I just gave the softsubs and tested it themselves (not knowing some mistimings, errors, etc).

and also, when using aegi as karaoke fx maker - be sure that you also use the same vsfilter in encoding to have exact effects you see at aegi preview.

PS: i just love the new karaoke automation of aegi :p though i still don't know how to compute the exit of the lines =/
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Postby suketeru » Thu May 01, 2008 2:49 pm

aah, i still have to play around with all that stuff.
oh yeah i read with mkv it's possible.
\t is still awkward for me! whatever i write doesn't work XD

thanx for the aegi tips ^_^

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Postby zeldAIS » Thu May 01, 2008 3:36 pm

i honestly can't live in the fansubbing world without \t XD i use it all the time in almost everything.

especially when i sub tokusatsus - in TV-Nihon's Jyuken Sentai Gekiranger and Kamen Rider Kiva typesets - i really really overuse it lol XD

suketeru-dono, i suggest experiment a lot on \t's :) and observe karaokes too. for example, one of my idols in karaoke effects making, KingOfBeer - try to watch his stuffs (most of the time his works are in Kuraki-Fans fansubs) - and all of them i know are possible with .ass or .ssa.

PS: I plan to post one of these days a tutorial in karaoke effects making when i have the time :)
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Postby suketeru » Thu May 01, 2008 3:40 pm

thank you so much. i'll check KingOfBeer's work. and I look forward to your tutorial ^_^ will you be posting it here @DA ?

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Postby Orbity » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:18 pm

Any tutorials that could help me implememnt Karaoke SFX in some subs I'm currently doing?

I need some help/guidance.

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Postby ethidda » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:45 pm

There are many aegisub tutorials available for sfx, from simple k-replacements to writing your own lua scripts. Aegisub provides some on its own wiki and others have made them as well. It all depends on what you want. Just google for it.

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Postby sungie » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:01 pm

The Pinny Parlour wrote:Any tutorials that could help me implememnt Karaoke SFX in some subs I'm currently doing?

I need some help/guidance.


Study math. And then study some programming language(s). And then familiarize yourself with tags in Aegisub.

When you handle math & programming it'll be easier to make scripts. If you want to use just templates, it'll still be easier 'cause you know what you want and how you can make it.

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Postby zeldAIS » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:35 am

sungie wrote:Study math. And then study some programming language(s). And then familiarize yourself with tags in Aegisub.

When you handle math & programming it'll be easier to make scripts. If you want to use just templates, it'll still be easier 'cause you know what you want and how you can make it.


you posted what i was gonna say - which is very neat ^__^
/me thumbs up sungie-dono =3

souno toori da, The Pinny Parlour-dono - math and programming saved me a lot of stuffs ^__^ - of course, hand in hand with logic and creativity =3

another advice is that watch a lot of good karaokes and decipher the codes how to do them by watching them frame by frame.

As I said in earlier posts, I suggest karaoke pv fansub groups like Mognet, Kuraki-Fans, Hello!Fansubs, HaroRangers, AOI among others really make very cool effects =3 TV-Nihon also has some karaoke pv subs based on the shows we are doing (as i just noticed we released Double Action Climax Form, ending song of Climax Deka, karaoke music video i made a couple of weeks or so ago).
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Postby sungie » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:51 pm

zeldAIS wrote:
sungie wrote:Study math. And then study some programming language(s). And then familiarize yourself with tags in Aegisub.

When you handle math & programming it'll be easier to make scripts. If you want to use just templates, it'll still be easier 'cause you know what you want and how you can make it.


you posted what i was gonna say - which is very neat ^__^
/me thumbs up sungie-dono =3

souno toori da, The Pinny Parlour-dono - math and programming saved me a lot of stuffs ^__^ - of course, hand in hand with logic and creativity =3

another advice is that watch a lot of good karaokes and decipher the codes how to do them by watching them frame by frame.

As I said in earlier posts, I suggest karaoke pv fansub groups like Mognet, Kuraki-Fans, Hello!Fansubs, HaroRangers, AOI among others really make very cool effects =3 TV-Nihon also has some karaoke pv subs based on the shows we are doing (as i just noticed we released Double Action Climax Form, ending song of Climax Deka, karaoke music video i made a couple of weeks or so ago).


I gotta say I like your karaoke for Kamen Rider Kiva. Usually I skip openings after watching few first episodes but for that series I have always watched it :)

Karaokes by Kuraki-Fans are excellent <3

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Postby zeldAIS » Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:31 am

wow, thanks for the compliment sungie-dono ^^ the karaoke looks like it's the theme for batman though XD (and sorry for late reply XD)
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Postby kingofbeer » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:10 pm

O.o
the vast majority of my stuff was done in 2002 or earlier and its quite outdated
so its probably better to watch someone elses stuff o.o

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Postby Kamui6 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:30 pm

kingofbeer wrote:O.o
the vast majority of my stuff was done in 2002 or earlier and its quite outdated
so its probably better to watch someone elses stuff o.o

:cheers: Pleasant surprise.

When it comes to Karoake, I would default to Bubu and kingofbeer
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Postby zeldAIS » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:31 pm

Kamui6 wrote:
kingofbeer wrote:O.o
the vast majority of my stuff was done in 2002 or earlier and its quite outdated
so its probably better to watch someone elses stuff o.o

:cheers: Pleasant surprise.

When it comes to Karoake, I would default to Bubu and kingofbeer
pleasant surprise indeed! :D kingofbeer-dono in the house!!

i gotta say, you're one of my idols in karaoke effects, kingofbeer-dono :3

Edit: i honestly remember deciphering your karaoke effects frame by frame XD yeah, that was the time i started fansubbing - so it was really 2002 :P
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