Licensed Dramas To Be Removed

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pokute
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Postby pokute » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:31 am

@nokiamania - I think you are entirely correct, and it is unlikely that they will do anything. But if they send a cease and desist, and Ruro responds to it by removing things from his site, and advises them of his action, then they can probably convince his ISP that he agreed that he was infringing as they stated, and they could cut him loose. He would probably appeal and get back on the air, but it could be a real hassle. I am not saying Ruro did the wrong thing, I'm just pointing out the most likely (not very likely - I don't believe it will happen) next step if they really want to pursue this.

I do not believe there will be any further action from YAE or any other licenser.

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Postby alli_potts » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:58 am

Well, the bottomline to this debate basically comes down to the fact that Daddicts must protect themselves. And since I know we all love this site, we want them to protect themselves even if it means we might lose some chance to enjoy a few dramas. So I totally support their decision to remove the torrents.

As for this company, YA entertainment, I imagine that if they release low quality DVDs that people can't afford, they are probably outpricing themselves and nobody will buy them anyway, so YA entertainment will go bankrupt in the end.

Although, I don't think the idea of American licensed Asian drama is a terrible thing, I just hope that the price is equal to the quality.

I guess we all have to just hang out and see how everything plays out. If we're not happy with the price & product, we don't support YA entertainment.

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Postby TNF » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:04 am

well there's always clubbox
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Postby autuymnrain » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:04 am

i don't like what this has done to us, but to be honest, YAE produces very good quality dramas. back then, it wasn't in wide screen, but i think they're doing that now. the boxes of the dvds are really nice, and the quality is superb. but i have to agree, they are a big rip off

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Postby LemonDrive » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:06 am

Kai Lien wrote:Why is KBS so special? Can they not buy rights to KBS dramas?


I think it's because KBS have international channel. I watch a few series from them here in the Philippines (via cable) with subs already. Yah, they're subbing their dramas.

Like Snow Queen for ex., Pure in My heart


Anyways, this license thing sucks especially if you don't live in America. Coz we, non-american residents depend on D-Addicts to be able to download and watch current and great Dramas.
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Postby chunu » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:23 am

one word.... GREED ! :cussing:
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Postby Néa Vanille » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:53 am

HD69 wrote:They managed to license so much stuff without people realizing it because so many people just leech kdramas off the internet without ever even thinking of buying it... :roll:

YAE has been releasing R1-licensed kdrama DVDs since 2004, so it's not like they just magically appeared yesterday like some of you are implying. And although I have some gripes about their releases (particularly when shows like Damo and Princess Hours are released as non-anamorphic widescreen :x), I appreciate their efforts to commercially release English-subbed kdramas in N. America, and have actually bought some of their stuff. Anyway, for those who are interested, you can read a little bit more about YAE here: http://starbulletin.com/2005/11/28/feat ... ory01.html


I HAVE bought plenty of dramas on my vacation to Korea. But I am not American and have never in my life heard of YA Entertainment.

But if they've been around for that long but were very unknown because they didn't make any profit, then I guess that explains this sudden aggressive move. I'm not sure whether they will find that alienating the online community was such a smart move after all, though.

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Postby hacksign » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:56 am

ehh... whatever. there's still clubbox and even if you can't use it, if you're willing to look, you'll be able to find direct downloads for some of those dramas (moreso as time goes on)

plus, not to sound horrible or anything, the way I see it is that some unscrupulous people are just gonna use the opportunity to rip those subtitle and post it somewhere anyways. *shrug* it has just been my experience from all situations similar to this (ie anime and manga).

seriously, I've just lost the ability to tell when I would be overemotional on these type of issues >_<
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Postby ruisu » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:09 am

how saddening
edit: i feel better after checking out their catalog.

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Postby canon05 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:35 am

Only Korean dramas? It looks nice though plus with English sub. Would be great if ALL kinds drama are included too.

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Postby hhv94 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:37 am

Of course there could be other "maverick" like sites that will still offer pure torrents for dramas only. I know a few independent torrent sites that will upload anime and I'm sure this will probably happen with drama too. It all depends on letting others know via club box sites or blogs. Word of mouth helps alot. So here is hoping some nice group of ppl build a nice torrent site for the drama underground groups. :)

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Postby kaezu » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:39 am

khmai_kandi22 wrote:Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh JuMong is listed!

Our team D-Fansubs, worked so hard on that series and now it's going to be removed :cry:

I was too surprised when JuMong was gone (only to find many are gone)... I almost cried.:cry:
Soooo~ sad!

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Postby amabelle » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:41 am

oh boy this sooo blows.

can't we do a boycott on YA E products?

grr. this makes me soo mad thinking of the future dramas they can license.
ahhh. =(

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Postby rambutan » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:45 am

Need to record my sadness about this. Looks like we have to watch more Jp and TW/Chinese dramas from now on.

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Postby autuymnrain » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:56 am

amabelle wrote:oh boy this sooo blows.

can't we do a boycott on YA E products?

grr. this makes me soo mad thinking of the future dramas they can license.
ahhh. =(


it's hard to boycott YAE. ppl who don't know how to dl or such, or if they're older people, or just lazy, they'll dish out the dollars to buy it from YAE. as sad, and as pricey as it may be.

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Postby crazylife123 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:57 am

not a fan of japanese dramas and good chinese series arent coming out fast enough. i was enjoying korean series as well.

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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:09 am

To summarize some people's feelings:

I don't want to pay **** for entertainment.

Boycott YA Entertainment... What the hell is that about? Is that going to solve anything? A lot of you whined for years about not being able to find Asian DVDs with English subtitles. Well, you K-drama fans have them now!!! And still you're complaining about them???? What a bunch of **** whiners! The Tom Larsons, Jeff Chungs and the KBS America's of planet Earth are making all of these dramas LEGALLY available for you people who are too lazy to learn Korean. And yet you want to steal these works of their labor and infringe in their intellectual properties just because you don't want to get a good paying job to pay for your entertainment?

No wonder the Japanese drama market isn't heading in this direction. The presidents of the Japanese TV networks must be sitting at home, eating sushi off their naked wives, observing this demonstration of greed and then saying to themselves, "I'm not going to **** bend over for these foreigners. Make'um learn Nihongo!"

--- groink

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Postby myrmidon » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:50 am

amabelle wrote:can't we do a boycott on YA E products?

In order for the threat of a boycott to be effective, they'd have to believe that some of us here actually buy their products in the first place. If you're asking them to keep letting you get licensed shows here for free, then you're obviously not a potential customer in the first place.

I've been using the same ethic that's used by many in the anime fansub community: if you want something that's already licensed, then support the anime industry by buying the official domestic release. Downloading fansubs is just for shows that I wouldn't otherwise be able to see because no one is planning on releasing them here anyway.

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Postby Xnite » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:54 am

Wow that was a bit harsh don't you think. I like to think like some of the people who post that the DVD set are a bit overpriced. I would consider it if it was in the $50 range but $100 for a DVD set when the norm is $20-40 for a season of American TV.

I don't think you should not be using profanity to express yourself. I like this community and I hope that it remains friendly for everyone. I hope that D-Addicts would stay online for a long time and that YAE actions will eventually lead to something to look forward to.

EDIT: Was referring to GROINK's POST

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Postby BeautifulGirl2007 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:02 am

Where are we surpossed to find and download Ruler Of Your Own World and Secret on the internet ?

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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:10 am

$100 for a box set of DVDs is NOT overpriced. Heck, I paid close to US$1000 just for Oshin. Japanese DVDs are an average of US$200 for a 12-episode box set.

Comparing American DVD and Korean DVD prices is not a proper comparison. Korean DVDs have a LOT more work put into them. First, YA Entertainment is independant of the Korean TV networks; YAE had to purchase a license from the Korean TV network. That costs a lot of money just there alone. Next, YAE has to hire a crew of subbers, timers and QC people to add on English subtitles. After that, YAE has to hire a crew to design the DVD. And THEN, YAE has to get pay a company to mass produce the DVDs.

The American drama DVDs? They're selling them to Americans who speak English. They don't have to pay themselves for licensing. And they don't have to hire someone to create subtitles. Those elements being left out alone can drop the price down substantially.

So before complaining about the high cost of an item, sit down for a few minutes and break down what it takes to make that item.

--- groink

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Postby bellaheart » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:26 am

groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

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Postby damouse » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:32 am

*shrugs* This bites, but it has to happen sooner or later. Like many posters have said, the anime went down the route a long time ago and it's still kickin'. I for one definitely CANNOT afford US$100 boxset DVDs so thank goodness for the ability to read Chinese. I can get Chinese VCD/DVD boxsets for a fraction of the US$100 price...something like 10% of that price, approximately. ;)

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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:40 am

bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.

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Postby marie_23 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:41 am

kobe23 wrote:I don't want to turn this into one of those piracy threads, but rest assured, there will always be a way to obtain the files, even if clubbox goes down. P2P will always win. Even the American movie/music/games industry have already firgured that out.


I agree with you about people always finding ways around barriers to something they want and the internet is very vast. So, if someone is looking for a certain movie or drama series they will find it some where on the internet. For some reason D-addicts reminds me of this free share music website I use to belong too ....that was forced to close by law suit after it had been on the web for five years :cry: their site was great it had chat rooms, forums etc...

After the very public and popular music site was closed down...they just went underground via P2P 8) ...I think D-addicts has become overtime a very popular website and thus, it is now gained unwanted attention.

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Postby under_score_x » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:43 am

now i understand..thanks

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Postby marie_23 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:45 am

groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.


Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:

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Postby Xnite » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:52 am

The community ROCKS

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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:02 am

marie_23 wrote: Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:

What makes you think I download off D-Addicts. I don't. Really. I upload instead. Nice try, Jack.

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Postby aNToK » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:03 am

marie_23 wrote:
groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.


Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:


Umm... groink also encodes and shares dramas that otherwise wouldn't be seen by anyone here at all.
Consider these before you try that argument. There are a lot more takers than givers here, so don't bite the givers...
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Postby mizune » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:07 am

I see Ruro has finally let the cat out of the bag...
...and now people are trying to beat down said cat with a big stick... :fear:

groink is absolutely right about the cost breakdown of the products.
One other thing to keep in mind about pricing is volume. The more units you produce, the cheaper your production costs will be. And until the actual market size is known, YAE will have to play it on the safe side with smaller production runs.

Overall, I think $100 is a pretty reasonable price. I remember when anime was first licensed, VHS tapes would cost $35-40 each. That means for a 10 ep OAV, people would actually pay almost 2-3x as much as YAE is asking for... and YAE is giving much better quality as well. I really don't know how much anime costs these days (I stopped years ago, just as DVDs were starting to pop up), but I imagine it's hella cheaper than before. If this venture truly does succeed, prices will eventually drop.

Try to think of it in another light. Instead of viewing it as punishment from an ugly corporation out to get us all and ruin our fun, think of it as a way of paying back the writers, producers, and actors for the work we enjoy. After all, they will get a part of the royalties paid by the licensing fees. Yeah, it's a hard pill to swallow, but keeping this in mind may take off some of the edge.

Besides, I'd rather pay the ppl who actually produce the works than those that sell pirated fansubs on eBay any day of the week. That statement goes double for people who don't know how to use computers or sites like this... :fear:

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Postby marie_23 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:18 am

aNToK wrote:
marie_23 wrote:
groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.


Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:


Umm... groink also encodes and shares dramas that otherwise wouldn't be seen by anyone here at all.
Consider these before you try that argument. There are a lot more takers than givers here, so don't bite the givers...


I already knew that groink encodes and shares...I don't think anyone is trying to bite givers :blink I do understand the point groink is making with the logic example. However, the point I was trying to make was not direct at groink at all. But to the fact that many people visit this site because it may be the only option they have left to obtain a drama they can't afford at the moment. Hence, why would anyone visit this site if they can afford to buy the dramas from the start....

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Postby alli_potts » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:18 am

marie_23 wrote:
groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.


Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:


Maybe he is a spy for YA entertainment??? :whistling:

Seriously though. Groink, I think you might be taking this a little too personally. Of course people are going to feel some disappointment at having to pay for something that they used to get for free. Right or wrong, it is simple human nature.

I do think you make a good point about the cost of licensing and producing the drama. And if these DVDs are properly subbed and produced then I think that they might be worth it. Also, I think that we should all keep in mind the hard work that went into creating the shows. We all love our Korean TV stars, and I'd like to think that licensing drama in America will help it to become more mainstream. This would open up doors for more good shows, and put money in the pockets of the hard working people who brought us the shows in the first place.

But I am a really openminded person, so I can see good points on both sides of this debate. It will be interesting to see what the drama business is like in a couple of years.
Last edited by alli_potts on Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby impression151 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:20 am

Well, this was expected, sooner or later. I remember when movies got D-addicts in trouble once they started getting licensed.
I am surprised that Korean dramas are getting the English sub/DVD treatment. I knew they got big in Asia but I never knew they were getting big over here too.

I wonder when Chinese and Japanese dramas will get licensed.
$100 per DVD set isn't THAT bad if you really want the set. I remember when I wanted to get the Kinpachi Sensei #6 DVD boxset. That bastard was $600 with no subs, no nothing.

Anyways, hope everything with this licensing will go smoothly on D-addicts. I don't want to see another IRON MONKEY incident.

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Postby thtlam » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:36 am

I'm a bit sad but I think I saw this coming...it was just a matter of time
plus YA DVD's aren't that bad I bought several dramas from them before and I really like them just that it takes longer for them to release the drama with english subtitles(US version) sometimes waiting for the right version takes a while

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Postby khmai_kandi22 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:37 am

alli_potts wrote:
marie_23 wrote:
groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.


Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:


Maybe he is a spy for YA entertainment??? :whistling:

Seriously though. Groink, I think you might be taking this a little too personally. Of course people are going to feel some disappointment at having to pay for something that they used to get for free. Right or wrong, it is simple human nature.

I do think you make a good point about the cost of licensing and producing the drama. And if these DVDs are properly subbed and produced then I think that they might be worth it. Also, I think that we should all keep in mind the hard work that went into creating the shows. We all love our Korean TV stars, and I'd like to think that licensing drama in America will help it to become more mainstream. This would open up doors for more good shows, and put money in the pockets of the hard working people who brought us the shows in the first place.

But I am a really openminded person, so I can see good points on both sides of this debate. It will be interesting to see what the drama business is like in a couple of years.


This isn't a time to be attacking other people when they want to voice out their opinions or ideas about this matter. And plus, all this bickering or complaints won't change or help the situation at all.

YA Entertainement can't track down every single fansubbers in the world to stop fansubbing because then the whole entire world would be in jail. All we can do is just release softsubs and no uploading of RAW videos or HARDSUBBED videos.

Like Ruroshin said, "the anime world has survived this."

I'm sure we can all survive this as well.

A little note: We're talking about licensed dramas and I notice everyone is going off-topic to talking about the price of the dramas and such.... :whistling:

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Postby fastat3m » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:44 am

A $100 is a lot for a 20 episode series. Honestly, i don't think most people are willing to pay this much, except for a select few series. However, it is imported, so that should increase the price of the drama. The company is still kind of new so I believe that the price will eventually drop to maybe $50 eventually. By keeping it at $100, they will soon realize that there probably will be a greater supply than demand, which will cause them to eventually lower the prices to find an equilibrium. I believe if they do not do this, they will eventually go out of business. Right now they are in the beginning stages of their company, so they will have to keep the prices high until they find more efficient ways to lower the prices of labor and materials. It is kind of like the DVD player. Long time ago it would cost over $1000, and now you could get one for like $50. I'm not going to worry about the price at the moment, i'll give it some time to see what happens. Eventually, some type of middle ground will be achieved, otherwise they will make no money, and we won't be able to see the drama's that we would like to see.

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Postby bellaheart » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:45 am

groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:groink you have to take in consideration that some of us can't afford $100 series let alone almost $1000 series...

... but not being able to afford your K-drama addiction allows you to steal these shows, while others like myself who have the money can. This logic is twisted. Like I've always said: If you can't afford the hobby, then don't DO the hobby.



so since i can't afford $100 for a series then i shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them then??

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Postby hacksign » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:46 am

Again, I'm personally in the "whatever"-group but in defense of some of the people who are upset...

I think that the biggest problem is not only that it is a lot of money, but it's because you really don't know if it's worth it. I got no problem buying boxsets of stuff (I got a legit copy of the first season of House MD just recently), but the thing is that we get to watch these shows on TV basically for free BEFORE we decide if it's worth buying or not. It's true that there are people who are asking for legitimate copies, but probably for many members of this site, it is only after they have seen the fansub already and know that it would be worth the money.

Personally, I would never pay for that much money for something that might not be worth it. Well, actually I can get viet dubs dramas basically for free through other people. Even without that, there are a lot of places I could rent them for REALLY cheap, but that's really not true for people who are dependent of english sub. Also, even if renting was more common, they would still be paying about two-three times more to rent it (from Blockbusters or whereever) then I would be spending. Seriously, those people are really being taken advantage of...
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Postby AboutDrama » Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:52 am

If only the price of J-dramas and K-dramas are cheaper, I don't mind buying them. However, the price of these dramas is expensive. People who have a full time job may not complain too much about the price, but not for those who are working and stuying at the same time or still looking for a full time job.

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Postby HD69 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:03 am

groink wrote:To summarize some people's feelings:

I don't want to pay **** for entertainment.

Boycott YA Entertainment... What the hell is that about? Is that going to solve anything? A lot of you whined for years about not being able to find Asian DVDs with English subtitles. Well, you K-drama fans have them now!!! And still you're complaining about them???? What a bunch of **** whiners! The Tom Larsons, Jeff Chungs and the KBS America's of planet Earth are making all of these dramas LEGALLY available for you people who are too lazy to learn Korean. And yet you want to steal these works of their labor and infringe in their intellectual properties just because you don't want to get a good paying job to pay for your entertainment?

No wonder the Japanese drama market isn't heading in this direction. The presidents of the Japanese TV networks must be sitting at home, eating sushi off their naked wives, observing this demonstration of greed and then saying to themselves, "I'm not going to **** bend over for these foreigners. Make'um learn Nihongo!"

--- groink


The Honorable Groinkster has spoken. This is funny the Groinkster defending korean dramas which he does not even watch. I must be one of those "****" whiners your talking about.

Yes I am one of those "****" whiners who has purchased over 30 korean dramas on dvd. Half of them have come from Tom Larsen's Company. Yes 3 columes of "Emperor of the Sea", also 3 volumes of "Dae Jang-geum" and almost 3 volumes of "Seo Dong Yo". Until I purchsed Vol. 1 first for over $100 and found out how shitty the subtitles were. And this was SBS Production who produced this dvd box set and was region 3 from Korea.

I still say the prices are to high. Of course being from Hawaii I have acess to KBFD and KBS America as well as IATV and AZN. But I still like to d/l what is nt shown their and then make my decision if I will but it on dvd.

And please do not even mention Jeff Chungs name. The guy is a total joke. He is the biggest jerk-off of a general manager I ever seen. His dad started the station and has totally screwed it up. Video and Audio problems on a daily bases. When KBS America channel first came online it was great. Then Jeff Chung talked the into feeding their signal through them before it went on to Oceanic. Now all the problems that were going on at Kbfd is now even worst with CH. 80 KBS America. Outages that last 6, 7, sometimes 8 hours. He even started showing commercials during the dramas and programs after they were commercial free. He even moved back the schedule 4 hours so now all the good dramas start at 10pm and late into the early morning hours. Why because no one was watching his shitty Kbfd. Yes the guy is a joke. If he packed up and moved his TV station to Korea. Even the koreans would kick his sorry ass out of the country. After watching the problems his station would be having. He even teaches his employees to lie to the viewers when they call with complaints. There is never any problems or its Oceanic's fault. So please don't even bring up his name. All he wants to do is fly back and forth to korea and write his stupid column in the Honolulu Advertiser every sunday.'

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Postby koolaid » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:05 am

THe higher the demand, the more they can produce and the cheaper the product. It just means that you have to be more selective on what you watch. Businesses have a right to make profit. If they price their products to high then no one will buy it, however if they price it too low, they could end up in a deficit. As a consumer you now have a choice, buy the series that you really want, or if you really want free tv, then watch the programs from your local television.

No company wants to alienate its consumers. No one is getting taken advantage of, because no one is going to die without their dramas, maybe disappointed.

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Postby yamcha » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:07 am

It's not that big of a deal. The Korean stuff is an inferior product to the Japanese dramas anyways. Kind of how a Hyundai is to a Honda.

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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:29 am

bellaheart wrote:so since i can't afford $100 for a series then i shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them then??

Absolutely! That's real-life, dude! Many people in this world work hard for the money they earn. And that includes everyone involved in the process of making Korean dramas come alive. Do you think it is a person's birthright to be entertained regardless of whether or not you can afford it? No, that right is not written in any document I've ever seen. Entertainment is a privilege for people who can afford to give back to the people who entertained them via monetary means. If you want to enjoy something, you have to pay for it. Plain and simple. You getting hooked into Korean dramas while they were free, and then suddenly having most of it yanked from under you isn't anyone's fault but your own. Maybe you can blame your friends for getting you hooked on dramas. Maybe you can blame the fansubbers for making it too easy to watch these shows. But still, like Super Chicken used to say, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred." Now that you have to pay for some of the dramas, it is up to you to either adjust to the fact of investing in these works and start saving up for them, or give them up and continue to download the non-licensed works.

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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:44 am

HD69 wrote:flames Jeff Chung.

And I think he deserves it, too!!!! :lol Woah, I didn't know a lot of what you mentioned there. At my weekly Japanese drama roundtable, I refer to him as "Lord Jeff", and his TV network KBFD as "Kdramas?-Big-F**king-Deal". KBFD isn't the only TV station being messed up; KIKU has its share of quality problems. They continue to transmit their signal to Time-Warner Cable via the air rather than paying money for a fiber uplink to transmit the video signal. And since they got rid of JN Productions (or actually Joanne got rid of KIKU), the quality of the shows, the choice of shows, and the dropping of shows previously traditional to KIKU have caused some of their viewers to give up on them and switch to KBFD. I do peak at KBFD every now and then, and yes the video quality is still awful.

It seems that at least in Hawaii, this wave of sorts has halted. In Kokiku magazine, KBFD still occupies only two pages. Eye-Ai magazine stopped talking about Korean dramas several issues ago. Just today at SAM'S CLUB I didn't see any of YAE's DVDs being sold. And NGN even dropped all KBFD Korean dramas from their afternoon line-up (I'd like to believe that the dozen phone calls I've made to NGN caused that to happen.) It'll be interesting to see what will happen in the next year or so.

--- groink

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Postby leimomi » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:45 am

:O Didn't realize that my initial comments on page 7 would start something like this.

You can find YAE under yesasia.com. They sell not only Korean dramas, movies, books and music but also Chinese and Japanese and Western ones too. They sell DVDs and VCDs and you need to watch out since not all their products are Region 1 DVDs. They sell Region 2 and Region 3 DVDs as well. Not everything has English sub-titles, I am sad to say. They periodically do have bargain sales to reduce their inventory of movies. Haven't seen one for TV dramas, though.

You need to remember that they are doing this legitimately. So, that means they have to purchase the rights, hire the translators, etc. Unfortunately, it costs money to do this. And, since they want to make a profit...

Initiallly, I saw Dae Jang Geum for $99 x 3 volumes. Now, they sell each volume for about $70 ($210 for all 3), and the deluxe set is $249. But I got a set in Chinatown for $70 with English sub-titles, and so... There is such a thing as supply and demand. If the demand is up and there are competitors (from Hong Kong, China and Singapore) to bring the cost down, we may see more affordable prices. You also get what you pay for. So, sometimes it's a trade-off on the quality of the English sub-titles.

I found out from a friend that because of the popularity of these dramas in Hawaii, the public library has some of the series that they can borrow. Wish that were true here as well. It would be much easier on my pocketbook.

It's hard because sometimes, you spend the money on something you think is worth it, they you watch it and get very disappointed. That's what has happened to me so many times. But thanks to d-addicts, I was able to get a taste of what's out there.

Hmm,,, perhaps you can ask YAE to let d-addicts just have the first couple of episodes of a series so that we can decide whether to buy it or not? Can they give us a discount if we mention that we saw it on d-addicts and that it helped us to decide? I don't know if it's possible, but can someone please ask? They do have free shipping for orders over $25 to the US and $39 to Canada. (It used to be $39 for the US as well, but perhaps more people are buying and so...)

Remember that we enjoy watching these dramas. Hopefully the producing company gets something from it so that they can produce more of what we want to see. :wub:

Thank you for all the work that those who have put up and contributed to this website have done! A hui hou! (See you later!)

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Postby crazylife123 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:52 am

If only we could view the subs for each series first before we purchase them. Some of the subs are horrible. People spend hundreds of dollar to pay the series with bad subtitles. I wouldnt like it. They should hire the people here in d-addicts to do the sub for them. =)

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Postby bellaheart » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:52 am

groink wrote:
bellaheart wrote:so since i can't afford $100 for a series then i shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them then??

Absolutely! That's real-life, dude! Many people in this world work hard for the money they earn. And that includes everyone involved in the process of making Korean dramas come alive. Do you think it is a person's birthright to be entertained regardless of whether or not you can afford it? No, that right is not written in any document I've ever seen. Entertainment is a privilege for people who can afford to give back to the people who entertained them via monetary means. If you want to enjoy something, you have to pay for it. Plain and simple. You getting hooked into Korean dramas while they were free, and then suddenly having most of it yanked from under you isn't anyone's fault but your own. Maybe you can blame your friends for getting you hooked on dramas. Maybe you can blame the fansubbers for making it too easy to watch these shows. But still, like Super Chicken used to say, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred." Now that you have to pay for some of the dramas, it is up to you to either adjust to the fact of investing in these works and start saving up for them, or give them up and continue to download the non-licensed works.



well... mean much? its like you just wanna bite everyones head off. sorry for being poor. i mean obviously its my fault that i wasn't born into privilege. sorry that i pissed you off so much because i was disappointed.

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Postby crazylife123 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:01 am

bellaheart wrote:well... mean much? its like you just wanna bite everyones head off. sorry for being poor. i mean obviously its my fault that i wasn't born into privilege. sorry that i pissed you off so much because i was disappointed.


dont stress it. he's only expressing his opinions just like you. eventually, someone will come up something like netflix.com but for asian movies/series rental. something like $30 per month, unlimited rentals...$30 per month...you and a few other people should be able to afford that. i believe there are sites out there just like that.

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Postby bellaheart » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:07 am

crazylife123 wrote:
bellaheart wrote:well... mean much? its like you just wanna bite everyones head off. sorry for being poor. i mean obviously its my fault that i wasn't born into privilege. sorry that i pissed you off so much because i was disappointed.


dont stress it. he's only expressing his opinions just like you. eventually, someone will come up something like netflix.com but for asian movies/series rental. something like $30 per month, unlimited rentals...$30 per month...you and a few other people should be able to afford that. i believe there are sites out there just like that.



i know he is... but geez does he have to be so mean? i'm not even talking crap to him like some other people are and he wants to bite my head off.

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Postby Felguard » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:24 am

Errr, they licensed most of the good ones too..

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Postby cutekid » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:29 am

i just hate the idea of paying almost $100 per drama. i can't even afford one. its so expensive. if there would be local services that would rent out dramas or sell them with very competitive prices then maybe i'll buy them. or if YA can offer them at very low prices then i'll consider. each cds cost locally PhP5000. which cost alot. pirated versions is about US$2-5 a series. original disc can cost almost the same. if YA can compete with such prices then i'll buy but for now, i'll look for other means on how to watch those series. :lol

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Postby aNToK » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:30 am

Well bellaheart, groink, like myself, tends to be very blunt and consistent in his opinions regarding issues like these (though he tends to use MUCH less profanity in his comments, as a mod or two continually remind me...) so don't take it as a personal attack. Like your or someone's comment mentioning that a comment wasn't directed to him directly, his answer wasn't directed solely at you, but rather to everyone who would think the way you do. You were the one who happened to ask the question, that's all.

I'll admit, I'm a bit divided on the whole issue of the licensing of the dramas and the removal of them from d-addicts. On the one hand it does seem fair for someone to take the time and effort to go about trying to legitimize and sell K-dramas in the U.S. If I had the resources, I'd probably look into doing it myself.

On the other hand, the first list killed two projects that others and myself have put a lot of hard time and effort into bringing to the d-addicts community (Lawyers and Last Dance Is With Me, which I've already reworked and edited subs for for what was going to be a kind of "special edition" set with fresh HQ video from a good-quality dvd set that wasn't available when the uploads here were done).
There's also the potential for two series I'm actively releasing right now to be on that list any time well before they're completed. I'll be pretty pissed if we get to ep 60 or so on Terms of Endearment and it suddenly gets blacklisted.
Really Really Like You is already on hold for the time being, pending seeing what action the mods take against a person who breaks the site rules regarding criticism of the subs/releases, etc. and refers to our forum members as "a forum of faggots who wish they were asian and watch crappy dramas all day ". Check the currently locked RRLY 19 thread if you want the whole profanity-laced story...

Ugh, off topic. next post....
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Postby hacksign » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:44 am

Once more before I head off to bed for the night...

First, yep, it's high demand AND competition that leads to lower prices. Still, I don't know how much competition the company really has. To some people the quality of the subtitle is really important--enough so that they would never even consider purchasing something with horrible subtitle. If the high demand is centered more on their products, they really don't have a reason to lower their prices.

Secondly, I would agree that having a renting service such as Netflix would appease many people. This is actually be ideal because I truly believe that you should at least see the show once before going out and purchasing a copy for hundreds of dollars. Still don't know when this will happen...

Finally, back to the original topic, people should just chill out. There are still other methods of downloading drama and even if there wasn't, I predict that people will eventually find another bittorrent site to upload those licensed dramas to. Or maybe we'll even see clubbox replace bittorrent as the way of downloading dramas. Either way, this really isn't as terrible as some people are making it out to be...
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Postby aNToK » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:07 am

OK, back on topic:

One of the biggest (the biggest?) complaints many of us have always had with higher-priced box sets of drama series is the total crapshoot when it comes to the quality of the English subtitles. Think honestly for a minute. If you were to buy a series, would you prefer to roll the dice on a $40-50 set marketed to a non-English speaking country, or would it be worth it for you to pay $70 or so for a set that is professionally translated and subbed here in the US with an English-speaking audience in mind by a company who's desperate to expand the US market for K-dramas? I'd opt for the latter, no doubt.

I took the time after reading this thread this morning to try contacting YAE to get a bit more information about the products, goals of the company, etc. and was pleasantly surprised when I received a call back within an hour or so. Turns out that they do have an in-house team of translators and subbers and that they're continually looking to improve the quality of the E-subs and the video source, and were very familiar with D-Addicts and didn't appear to have any particular malice or anything toward the site. Actually, the feeling I got was more that they appreciated the fact that D-Addicts has done so much to help spread the K-wave to a much broader audience. Can't really blame them for wanting to build a business and make money at something that the folks I spoke with seem to love. Beats the hell out of buying stolen and re-worked vids from that little gingertoys2 **** on e-bay for not much less, I'll tell you.

As far as the pricing on the site, it was explained that the business is set up as a B2B rather than a B2C company (meaning that they mainly distribute to other retailers rather than to the consumer). The prices that are charged on the site are the suggested retail price, while the price you'll end up paying at Borders or wherever will likely be in the $70 to $80 range per set. It'll vary depending on which retailer you buy from.

So yeah, it sucks that we'll be seeing a chunk of current and future K-dramas that won't be available here, but it's good that as the vids become more mainstream and gain market share, the prices will inevitable drop as the demand increases.

To the people comparing the prices for American TV series box sets to potential prices for K-drama sets, realize one huge thing: the present built-in market for shows like 24, Friends, Lost, and most other series is currently hundreds (thousands?) of times larger than the current market for foreign, subtitled shows. Add in higher licensing fees, having to pay for quality translations, subtitlers, etc. and the above-mentioned high risk for selling enough of them to offset the much higher per-unit cost, and the prices are livable with the good chance of going down if the audience grows consistently.

Check around for even some of the less mainstream English-speaking series sets:

My beloved Battlestar Galactica (reimagined 2003) series has an srp of $60 on Amazon, and season 2 is sold in 2 parts with an srp of $49.98 each for about 24 eps total which puts it real close to the 16-20 ep runs and $99.98 srp for many of the K-dramas at the YAE site. Hell, the original asking price for the old '70s series is around $70, and most people didn't even remember the thing existed until the new one came out...

So in light of all this, I'll give a cautionary thumbs-up to YAE. Though my current financial state won't allow me to purchase more than the occasional series at retail price, I'm thinking that in the long run, it'll be good for the industry, and eventually good for all us fans.
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Postby bellaheart » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:22 am

[quote="aNToK"]Well bellaheart, groink, like myself, tends to be very blunt and consistent in his opinions regarding issues like these (though he tends to use MUCH less profanity in his comments, as a mod or two continually remind me...) so don't take it as a personal attack. Like your or someone's comment mentioning that a comment wasn't directed to him directly, his answer wasn't directed solely at you, but rather to everyone who would think the way you do. You were the one who happened to ask the question, that's all.

quote]

i think next time i just won't ask

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Postby laure_choc » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:46 am

I'm sorry for the subbers who have to stop their projects in the middle, but this sounds like a good news to me. It means I may be able to buy the sets of the dramas I really like. However it's true I'm not a big kdrama fan meaning for most of the dramas I saw I could be happy with just reading summaries. But for the ones I really like, it's good news. I got one set for my birthday last year and it was worth the whole money.
And if I compare to the prices of animes right now, it's not such a different price (if you compare by the number of hours watching).

Actually, we should also soon have a first set of a kdrama subbed in french. And the pricing is more or less the same. I hope the market will follow.
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Postby mimmi » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:27 am

@ aNTok: Thanks for the info....I somehow know that they will be distributing to the retailers and I'm kind a think Best Buy will sell them since Best Buy sells lots of chinese movies, a few japanese movies and lot of animes, so why not K-drama....so I'm gonna wait till they have jumong....I'm gonna buy them at whatever price they are selling them for....I got to feed my bad habit; K-drama, especially jumong :lol....but still, I'm gonna miss d-fansubs work on this drama....

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Postby kobe23 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:17 pm

Groink,

Your opinion on the whole issue is extremely myopic and your personal insults towards people who are worse off than you smacks of elitism.

Aren't the drama's originally shown on Free To Air TV? I'm sure you don't need a six-figure income to watch them when it's shown on Korean TV, so why should anyone pay for it? Most people purchase dramas because it's usually one of their favorite shows that they have seen on TV. They buy it as a collectable. I have plans on buying boxsets of my favorite k-drama's, but only after I have completed the entire series. I am not going to spend that much money on a TV series which I have no idea whether I'll enjoy or not. I'm sorry, but your "people don't want to pay for entertainment" argument doesn't hold any water when it comes to Asian dramas.

groink wrote:
marie_23 wrote: Hmmm...if you can afford to buy your dramas then why are you on a website that offers them for free? :scratch:

What makes you think I download off D-Addicts. I don't. Really. I upload instead. Nice try, Jack.


Heh. This part really baffles me. Isn't distributing licensed material without the owner's consent a far greater crime than actually downloading them? You've just contradicted everything you stand for.

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Postby cutekid » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:07 pm

well, thanks to aNToK i have been enlightened just a bit. maybe its the best. at least the money they would be earning can be used to produce more dramas that we will definitely enjoy right?

as long as such sites as this exists the demand for asian dramas will increase as more people can watch and download those series. i don't have anything against them right now because they just want to make a legitimate business. hope the demand and competition between retailers increase so that prices will drop to affordable prices. especially for us who can't afford. i don't want to buy pirated copies of great dramas! i want to support the original ones.
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Postby CraZyaH » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:35 pm

I think I should contact those at YAE and ask if they'd be working on Korean variaty shows too.
I wish they'd license X-man or Love Letter, those I'd buy even if they reached $1000 a set! lol
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Postby Xi@h » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:00 pm

CraZyaH wrote:I think I should contact those at YAE and ask if they'd be working on Korean variaty shows too.
I wish they'd license X-man or Love Letter, those I'd buy even if they reached $1000 a set! lol


I love X-Man!! I would die for X-man :P

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Postby amabelle » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:12 pm

ehh. i said that without even thinking.
and i was kinda ticked off because most of the dramas are the best ones.

i would also consider buying these dvd's, but they are just wayy too expensive.
i have student loans to pay.. and buying these dvds are not the top priority
although for the past few months its become a necessity because they make me happy.
they are like my happy pills.

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Postby hhv94 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:16 pm

Sorta skimmed this thread just now, and I was very surprised to see some comments made that the DVD's would be about 100 dollars? Regardless of the reasons why its still way to much and yeah I'm the regular buyer who wouldnt be caught dead buiyng a DVD set for that much. Based on what a previouse user has said about the reason in price hike its still something I had no knowledge off until I looked at the reasons. I am just a regular asian drama fan who had no knowledge it was that much to begin with. Either way I will still DL torrent raws that I'm sure will come out in due time. Also I find it ironic that the person who had offered these dramas free online has the gumption to comment and defend this industry. I belive his name was Goink or something? The stuff he had uploaded is technicaly liscenced and works of another person. Its raw footage but work originaly from some other company and of course he still did this considering other ppl were going to sub this. Either way its streaming liscenced material. So no offence to this person but I cant take what he says seriouse at all. Just my own point of view.
Last edited by hhv94 on Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Moriya » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:18 pm

those dvd is good... it has NG, interview and other... kinda worth it i think

too bad i'm poor... gotta wait someone rip them i guess :P

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Postby hhv94 » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 pm

LOL..Not a 100 bucks...Unless it 30 or maybe 50 tops. I'll be downloading myself. If the drama company were to offer these via download sites of their own, with a reasonable price I might get it that way. Highly doubt it though so Ill downloading the raws if they are up. If not I can always go to chinatown in NY and get rips for cheap.

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Postby pokute » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:38 pm

I think we need to sit on YAE and make sure they release quality encodes (no 4:3 letterboxing, or cropping off of the sides of 16:9) with high quality subtitles. Since the total difference in labor between producing the worst and the best is on the order of 3-5 hours, they could have no reasonable argument against it.

Fans of Bollywood movies are suffering horribly from an international monopoly by an incompetent distributor. EROS Entertainment International's encodes are unbelievably bad, and their dvd's force you to sit through 20 minutes of extremely stupid advertising for EROS before you can view the feature... Fans of Korean drama need to protect themselves constructively.

Since I can afford to, I'm going to buy a couple of kdramas from KBS this week... I'm not going to buy YAE titles unless I can verify that they are properly encoded and have quality subs.

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Postby deletemeanytime » Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:29 pm

....

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Postby snowbug » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:22 pm

I didn't read all 15 pages of this thread so I am not sure if these have been mentioned yet, but

1. The last time I checked, you can't buy the YAE DVDs from YesAsia if you do not live in USA or Canada. So many of us get left out like this. Yay.

2. Someone once told me they'd bought one these series from YAE and found that they had cut off scenes from the drama that were on the versions posted here at DA. Just a warning.


I'd personally gladly buy my favorite kdrama series on DVD, of course preferrably R2, but not with lousy subs and definitely not if something has been cut...

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Postby Annessa » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:40 pm

i've been a kdrama addict for years, and this is very sad for news to me. while i have been learning Korean, it isn't easy to just become fluent and be able to understand everything w/o the help of subtitles.

i own a few YAE dvd sets, but personally, am not a fan of their subtitles. fansubbers do a MUCH better job conveying what is actually being said. YAE's subs are good, with little to no grammatical or spelling errors, but sometimes they awkwardly translate some lines... and the full meaning gets lost. very frustrating. i feel torn because i do want to buy the dvds and support the industry, BUT i don't like YAE's dvd sets. i would much rather buy the Korean versions (even if they're region 3) because the overall packaging/presentation is nicer, plus they include extra features (cast interviews, behind the scene, NGs, etc), while YA often has trouble getting the license for those extra features. so far, none of their dramas include them other than Goong (Palace/Princess Hours), i believe. i also have heard that some episodes of certain dramas aren't the full length that was shown in Korea... i'm not certain about that, though.

i think YAE knows that the kdrama fanbase is growing... and they are always trying to get the rights for MANY dramas. i've noticed they've added more titles and will probably continue to add more titles in the future, as long as there is demand for it.

also, this is kinda related in regards to dvd sets... KBS America came under fire when they first released dvd sets, because fans complained that the ones manufactured for the US/Canada were not the same versions being sold in Korea (even those were all region dvds)... the packaging was cheaply made, and included no extras. this was around the time when dramas like Resurrection, Wedding, My Rosy Life, etc. were released... any KBS dramas before that (Full House, Sweet 18, Let's Go to School Sang-Doo, etc.) were not affected, and they were the same. For awhile, their site was shut down, and now it's back up with newer looking dvd sets. Can anyone tell me if there is any difference in these? Do they include extra features? For example, the version of Full House does not look like the original director's cut version that initially was released. I have no idea if that set is still in production.

personally, i like watching the dramas as they are airing in Korea. therefore, i know YAE won't get their hands on 'em until at least they finish airing, and release the dvd's much later. i assume that will mean the subs will have to be removed by then but will be available for the time being, so that should be ok for me. but it just sounds greedy on YA's part.
Last edited by Annessa on Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Hika.chan
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Postby Hika.chan » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:43 pm

Hmm, I think like this: If nobody is buying those series from YA (or other firms) they make no money and won't continue to licence series. And it will take time to decide what series they want to licence 'cause it depends on so many things. So just keep quite and everything will go fine.

dramatized
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havent downloaded in a long time

Postby dramatized » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:48 pm

hello its been a while since i downloaded korean dramas. i jus found out about korean shows being licensed. does this mean that there wont be any more kdrama to download? or just the one that are licensed? i usually look for new dramas on the first page of the torrent section and i noticed there arent any kdramas just a whole bunch of jdramas. so i guess my question would be will there be any more kdramas released to d/l?

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groink
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Postby groink » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:51 pm

kobe23 wrote:Heh. This part really baffles me. Isn't distributing licensed material without the owner's consent a far greater crime than actually downloading them? You've just contradicted everything you stand for.

You're really retarded, aren't you? Always thinking linear. I'm playing the same rules the anime world plays. I upload the series until it becomes licensed in the U.S. Once it is licensed, I stop uploading the series. And ALL of my uploads are TV captures - not A+ quality DVD or HDTV rips. Simple as that. I don't deal with kim-chee crap dramas - I only deal with Japanese dramas. And unlike the biz you guys are going through with YAE, us Japanese drama fans don't have the same problem. And thanks to the Korean wave withering away Japanese dramas' popularity, likely we never will. I for one do NOT want Japanese dramas with English subtitles to be released on DVD. So as far as my uploading goes, it WILL continue until the day Hell freezes over when the Japanese dramas become licensed in the U.S.

--- groink

Annessa
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Postby Annessa » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:14 pm

ok... i just read the first five pages. i will continue reading on if i have more time.... but anyway, a question that popped up often was something along the lines of, "how do we know yesasia really have the license to these dramas" or "how did they acquire the rights so fast?"

THIS IS NOTHING NEW!!! Yeasia has released dramas for a few years new. of course they have the rights to the dramas, they are a legit company that has been selling Asian entertainment products for years... i've been ordering from that website when they were called angelcd.com, back in the late 90's/early 00. i believe i started buying Korean dramas back in '03 or 04 or around that time. older titles like Hotelier, Did We Really Love, Ruler of Your Own World, Romance, Love Letter, etc. have been around for awhile. they even used to sell KBS dvds manufactured by Bitwin (Korean company) until KBS America established their own here, and stopped allowing YA to sell their dvd sets.

while i can understand the sentiment here, i guess we'l'l just have to work around it. i've been using clubbox to download, because the files are always available there first. and we can still have subs until they must be deleted (if YA happens to license them). i know the dvd sets are expensive, and their catalogue lists the pricing as $99.99 for most of them, but on the website, they are sold for as low as $64.99, depending on the drama. i know that's still pricey, but there's not much we can do.

there are different licensed versions. if you really don't want to support YA, then buy from an overseas site like dvdheaven.com or dvdfromkorea... downside is that it is a lot more expensive (and the shipping is $$$), but at least they sell the Korean versions that i much prefer to buy. still supporting the artists/directors/producers/writers without having to support YA.

pokute
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Postby pokute » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:30 pm

YesAsia sells bootleg dvd's. I have written about it in these forums, and I linked to an example in this thread. Not only that, they sell region 3 dvd's to U.S. buyers... Selling in region 1 is beyond the scope of the licensing for region 3 releases and violates the distribution license. But the fact that they are engaged in criminal activity does not mean that they can't sue you, or threaten to sue you, or cut off your hands and feet.


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