No more .torrents AKA F*cking Magnets, How Do They Work?

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saigo_x
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Postby saigo_x » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:45 pm

Sorvaseven wrote:
arakira wrote:And even if torrent file should get lost, if there's a member with the file they can always put up a new torrent etc...

It's more that the torrent information will be lost and can't reactivated without .torrent-files if i understand it right. Of course you can always put up a new torrent, but i would be very nasty and uncomfortable and every seed request will be "create a new torrent" request if there isn't even one active peer who has the torrent information in his/her client -_-.

Right again. If neither the person who wants to download or the prospective seeder has a copy of the original torrent file then someone would have to make a new torrent file. Imagine this happening over and over again. And yes, that is a real possibility. I've dealt with similar situtations many times myself.

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Postby Sorvaseven » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:50 pm

saigo_x wrote:Imagine this happening over and over again.

That comes in my mind, too. It would be real confusing and would produce many unnecessary torrent threads, so DA would be like a "pile of rubbish for useless torrent threads". These problems should be discussed in the next days. Thanks for mentioning these issues saigo_x.

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Postby takeda_shingen » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:58 pm

arakira wrote:And even if torrent file should get lost, if there's a member with the file they can always put up a new torrent etc...
The torrent file also contains checksums for the files it references, so you can use it to see if your files are uncorrupted (arguably better done by a tool like par2, which not only has checksums, but can recover errors - but even if people start including par2 data in all new torrents (even 1% would be enough for most common errors, and not increase size notably), it would still not help for old torrents that don't have this data).

If you're lucky, you might be able to regenerate a torrent file from your files, but they need to have the original file names/directory structure, piece size (autoselected by the program that creates the torrent usually), file order (often alphabetical, but it can be totally random), and possibly other things different torrent clients (or even different versions of one client) do differently. Only if the new torrent hash matches the original you can be (sufficiently) sure that your files are uncorrupted.

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Postby saigo_x » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:00 pm

Sorvaseven wrote:It's a consideration what's more important. Beware the old "underseeding" torrents in hope for future seeders or implement a new system with magnet links where old torrents will be in all probability dead forever. For the last option a solution would be great, but i can't help :-(

That's why I was caught off guard here. This has been brought up time and again in discussions about using magnet links. I mentioned it when there were problems with the torrent caching sites. Unfortunately I don't think I've ever read of a viable solution to the problem of old torrents dying off after switching to magnet links. In fact, many of the proponents of decentralization actually consider it a benefit.

Sorvaseven wrote:
saigo_x wrote:Imagine this happening over and over again.

That comes in my mind, too. It would be real confusing and would produce many unnecessary torrent threads, so DA would be like a "pile of rubbish for useless torrent threads". These problems should be discussed in the next days. Thanks for mentioning these issues saigo_x.

Actually it gets worse hehe. :P But I'll wait until Ruroshin and others enter the discussion to bring that up. :P

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Postby arakira » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:06 pm

I see, thanks everyone for your explanations!
Curious to see whether somebody will have any ideas how to deal with these problems. Cause in the end, DA was always a great place to look for some older stuff - since the new ones are always available in other places, too...

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Postby saigo_x » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:08 pm

takeda_shingen wrote:
arakira wrote:And even if torrent file should get lost, if there's a member with the file they can always put up a new torrent etc...
The torrent file also contains checksums for the files it references, so you can use it to see if your files are uncorrupted (arguably better done by a tool like par2, which not only has checksums, but can recover errors - but even if people start including par2 data in all new torrents (even 1% would be enough for most common errors, and not increase size notably), it would still not help for old torrents that don't have this data).

If you're lucky, you might be able to regenerate a torrent file from your files, but they need to have the original file names/directory structure, piece size (autoselected by the program that creates the torrent usually), file order (often alphabetical, but it can be totally random), and possibly other things different torrent clients (or even different versions of one client) do differently. Only if the new torrent hash matches the original you can be (sufficiently) sure that your files are uncorrupted.

You totally understand me! You get a cookie. Hehe. Seriously though, you brought up another of the problems I alluded to in my previous post: file verification/corruption/integrity. Unless the person who creates the new torrent file has the ability to perform some kind of file verification, there are all kinds of problems that can occur. How many of you here keep the original torrent files or have par2/sfv/md5/etc files for your downloads? /me raises hand (I coudl have sworn there was a emoticon for that... hehe)

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Postby fobdstn » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:35 pm

@saigo_x

Regarding seedboxes: When you have a slot on a box typically the parameters are set globally by the admin for everyone on that box. It is standard for DHT to be disabled.

I just don't want to end up back in a situation of seeding from home at 50-60 KB/s and contributing 1 TB a year of upload when I can do 10X that much upload in the present situation and help a lot more people out.

I also tend to like the older shows and don't want to see them disappear.

The bottom line is that this is an experiment and we'll see how it works out and what modifications are made. Shutting down the tracker seemed like a big deal too and it worked out alright. (Other than not being able to see which torrents needed seeders)

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Postby semi-fly » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:57 pm

Works fine for me, though admittedly since I'm an uploader the renaming 'Torrents' to 'Drama' threw me for a loop, but just for a minute or two. Sneaky admins..

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Postby TofuQueen » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:51 am

Works ok for me. :thumright:

I was concerned because in the past uTorrent wouldn't let me choose where to save the download for magnets, but they've fixed that so all is good.

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Postby faboo95 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:14 am

semi-fly wrote:Works fine for me, though admittedly since I'm an uploader the renaming 'Torrents' to 'Drama' threw me for a loop, but just for a minute or two. Sneaky admins..


Exactly what happened to me as well!!

Anyway after doing all the reading and looking through tutorials, a few simple clicks and I'm downloading as normal. Wasn't as complicated as I thought it would be!

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Postby Hammie » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:18 am

How long is this experiment going to run?

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Postby darcydevenus » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:46 am

Peculiar, I have to open the magnent files in firefox. Chrome doesn't seem to accept that they are actually valid links... It did when there were still torrent files attached... I don't much know about it, but at least I can download in firefox!

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Postby spade_plays » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:15 am

Please give back the torrent file

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Postby Ruroshin » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:36 am

Alright let see if I can address some of the concerns.

1. Why fix something that was not broken?

The current file sharing landscape is changing rapidly, see SOPA, PIPA, ACTA et el. This change was to try and make DA more resilant and less reliant on other infrastructures such as trackers and torrent file hosts. In this sort of climate there's no guarantee that those trackers and torrent file hosts will stick around in the future.

2. There are young and old people who will have trouble understanding another technology.

Well we have friendly people around here, just ask and we will help.

3. I use torrent files for file verification purposes.

Well the torrent files are still available in the swarm, there's just an extra step to retrieving it. Its an inconvenience trade off for decentralization.

4. Having a magnet link does not guarantee you can download the torrent file

This is probably the biggest concern. I don't have a direct answer to this problem other than creating a new torrent of the files. If you have not changed the files in any way from the original download, the resulting torrent should have the same hash as the magnet link then you can just use that torrent to bootstrap the process.

Otherwise you would have to upload the new torrent. Which leads to the next concern.

5. Too many reuploads would make DA be like a "pile of rubbish for useless torrent threads"

Actually, if the older torrents die out i would imagine the reuploaded torrent would be a batch of the individual older torrents. Batches are more ideal than having individual torrents and they tend to last longer.

Also, it would not be hard for me to write a program to periodically clean up "useless torrent threads" from old dead torrents.


Having said all that, I'd admit I was a bit hasty with the implementation as usually I would let the community discuss it a lot more than 1 day before deciding. However, at least I think this experiment was useful in fleshing out these problems.

For now I will let other bigger sites pave the way and let the torrent evolution progress a bit bit more. I will turn back on the torrent links as there's no real harm to having both for the moment. I just wanted to highlight to people the use of Magnet Links. Keep in mind that eventually we will probably turn off torrent links permanently. So try and use Magnet Links as much as you can and think about solutions to problems raised here.

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Postby Anya2186 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:21 am

I just wanted to highlight to people the use of Magnet Links. Keep in mind that eventually we will probably turn off torrent links permanently. So try and use Magnet Links as much as you can and think about solutions to problems raised here
Ok, but be sure to let us know not the day before, but at least 1week before you delete torrent files :)
Now that I've cooled down from surprise of this revolution, I understand your concern about torrent files, but it's not such a big problem right now. There're lot of people who's going to re-seed and re-upload batch with torrent files, and people use more torrent than magnetic links, so you've got a big shock to those (me too).
I was just thinking: "hosting servers down and now even this? then tomorrow I will not be able to download here anymore?!"
I was mad, I admit it. Sorry.
I'll try to use ML, but before I have to lear about it since I've read of some (big) problems that can be with those files. You can say it's not so difficult, and maybe I'll understand it quickly, but it's still a new thing for me (and others).
Thank you for your work ^^

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bluesue
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Postby bluesue » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:58 am

imo uploader should put tracker (if tracker still around ^_^) before put magnet link, so will be more easy to download than dhc alone.

for now i guess lets we learn step by step about using Magnet so we getting used, in case situation change so we not surprise anymore when DA provide magnet link only ^_^

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Postby iLLusiOnEr » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:33 am

The 'Dramas' tab above replacing the 'Torrents' tab, can you change it to something else. Like Download or Link or even Magnet. Its confusing with the wiki tab.

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Edohiguma
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Postby Edohiguma » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:46 pm

2. There are young and old people who will have trouble understanding another technology.

IMO, this is a complete non-argument. You don't need to be an MCSE or similar to understand how the magnet links work. Age is no argument for or against anything. Well, except when it comes to medical issues and similar, then yes. But when it comes to technology? No. There are tutorials, help files, instruction manuals, etc. If you don't use them, well, that's your own fault. I'm sorry, but I've worked in tech support in the past and most of the stuff people came to the hotline with could have been solved by reading the bloody manual and using the brain.

Also, if you're a young person having trouble understanding another technology, then you live in the wrong era. And old people can adapt just as easily. My mother is over 60, she's not tech savvy, she's no engineer or technician, she never had any technological training, and yet she has no issues with operating even new technology. What am I saying. Operating? Try installing. She just switched from a VHS VCR over to a hard disk recorder. Set up and installed everything herself. She knows how to work it. My father, on the other hand, is lost with the system. Why? Because he doesn't really want to sit down with the manual and learn how to operate the new system. He's just lazy. Somebody else will take care of it.

But as I was saying, age is no excuse. And being lazy certainly isn't either.

Oh, I know what you're saying. I'm now too harsh and probably "offending" someone (my opinion about "being offended" is the same as Stephen Fry's.) I counter with this: technology advances and our politicians are getting dumber and more power hungry all the time. So we need to adapt both ways. And you either adapt or you're left behind.

The VHS is effectively dead, are you going to complain about that too? Bring back the VHS cause you can't be bothered to learn how to operate blu-ray? Really?

5. Too many reuploads would make DA be like a "pile of rubbish for useless torrent threads"

Another non-argument. Go ahead and try downloading a specific episode of a random drama from 6 years ago with the normal torrents. Good luck finding a seeder. It's extremely likely you will be sitting at whatever random % for years. With or without the old torrent system. Reuploads happen all the time. Usually old dramas which then come in batches.
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Postby Hammie » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:30 pm

Edohiguma wrote:Go ahead and try downloading a specific episode of a random drama from 6 years ago with the normal torrents. Good luck finding a seeder. It's extremely likely you will be sitting at whatever random % for years. With or without the old torrent system. Reuploads happen all the time. Usually old dramas which then come in batches.


I've seen other places where people reupload stuff just days later - not years later - from the previous upload. And it's the same file, same checksum, but different names, different hash. And almost everyone just grab and run over there, since there's no point to maintain the swarm anymore.. :(

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Postby saigo_x » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:42 pm

Ruroshin wrote:4. Having a magnet link does not guarantee you can download the torrent file

This is probably the biggest concern. I don't have a direct answer to this problem other than creating a new torrent of the files. If you have not changed the files in any way from the original download, the resulting torrent should have the same hash as the magnet link then you can just use that torrent to bootstrap the process.

Otherwise you would have to upload the new torrent. Which leads to the next concern.

Unfortunately I've never seen anyone mention a viable solution either. Creating new torrents is the only real solution. See takeda_shingen's post above on why it's nearly impossible to create a torrent that matches the original. I would add that not only is there a difference in torrent creation between different clients but also possibly between different versions of clients.
Ruroshin wrote:5. Too many reuploads would make DA be like a "pile of rubbish for useless torrent threads"

Actually, if the older torrents die out i would imagine the reuploaded torrent would be a batch of the individual older torrents. Batches are more ideal than having individual torrents and they tend to last longer.

Also, it would not be hard for me to write a program to periodically clean up "useless torrent threads" from old dead torrents.

What about single file uploads like SP's? What about the issue of file verification/integrity/corruption? Not to mention the fact that our views of torrent longevity are vastly different. Most people clearly don't realize just how short the "active" life of a torrent is. Most people think years when in truth many torrents only last months.
Ruroshin wrote:Having said all that, I'd admit I was a bit hasty with the implementation as usually I would let the community discuss it a lot more than 1 day before deciding. However, at least I think this experiment was useful in fleshing out these problems.

Well bringing it up in the SOPA/ACTA thread didn't help either. I started ignoring that thread ages ago hehe. :P

Edohiguma wrote:
5. Too many reuploads would make DA be like a "pile of rubbish for useless torrent threads"

Another non-argument. Go ahead and try downloading a specific episode of a random drama from 6 years ago with the normal torrents. Good luck finding a seeder. It's extremely likely you will be sitting at whatever random % for years. With or without the old torrent system. Reuploads happen all the time. Usually old dramas which then come in batches.

Reuploads happen all the time? :blink You have a very narrow view of the size of D-A then. You obviously have not thought this through very much. Getting rid of the current system makes it many times harder than it already is. There is just too much I can say, it's not worth arguing. The problem is too few people on here understand or even care about anything but the present day parts of D-A.

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Postby lordnigelkeavy » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:23 pm

The only problem I have is that using the ML does not automatically add the file name into the 'where do you want to save this' box. Torrents do. I'm not against MLs, just would like this little problem solved if possible (it could be me, so if a kind soul can tell me what I'm doing wrong....)

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Postby bluchan » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:33 pm

For people who are complaining about everything: you must understand that they are trying to implement a new technology, and like all new technology, it has some weak points.

There is no immediate solutions to all problems that may appear now or in the future, but that is not sufficient reason for not implementing something new.

Like all the things in this world, this system will improve, so it's only a matter of organize us and seek solutions, this will not be immediate, but people shouldn't stay bitching about the new system, instead should be looking for a way to improve things, if people understand that much, then, the best would be to use that to help and not to complain.

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Postby shuBox » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:50 pm

Just wanted to say " THANKS " Ruroshin for helping in keeping DA an awesome place
to hang out! For me, new or old technology is still an adventure for me to explore every time
there's a change in a forum..hehehehe. :lol

I was freaking out when those little button of arrows was gone and just that U was looking at me. :lol
But somehow I got it to dload and reading through your Mlink! :-)

But I do agree with one of the peer here, please let us know just a few days in advance
so that we don't " drop with a shock " like most of us did. :lol

BTW Ruroshin, whatever happen to your " Chipmunk avater with the bazooka "? :lol
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Postby Ruroshin » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:12 am

shuBox wrote:
BTW Ruroshin, whatever happen to your " Chipmunk avater with the bazooka "? :lol


I have no idea. It just disappeared one day and its been so long that I forgot where I originally hosted it. Oh well got a new chipmunk avatar now ^_^

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Postby AJBryant » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:20 am

Thanks!

I can still see stuff!! :)

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Postby Sephiroth » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:42 am

I thought it was a viable experiment. If or when the switch to magnet links "progresses" through other sites, may or may not be an option. The sudden downfall of Megaupload is proof that you really can't rely on having something next year, next month, or even tomorrow.

Whatever Ruroushin decides, it was a good idea. I always think it's better to be the pioneer than play catchup when a problem could've and should've been avoided earlier. :|

cindy25
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using magnet link for one file in a season pack?

Postby cindy25 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:56 am

I've used magnet links for single episodes on a different site, and no problem.

but for a season pack it wants to start the entire pack, even if you need just one episode

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Postby saigo_x » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:58 pm

bluchan wrote:For people who are complaining about everything: you must understand that they are trying to implement a new technology, and like all new technology, it has some weak points.

There is no immediate solutions to all problems that may appear now or in the future, but that is not sufficient reason for not implementing something new.

Like all the things in this world, this system will improve, so it's only a matter of organize us and seek solutions, this will not be immediate, but people shouldn't stay bitching about the new system, instead should be looking for a way to improve things, if people understand that much, then, the best would be to use that to help and not to complain.

Well first let's separate the technical issues from the fundamental flaws. Obviously client implementation will improve over time, such as the problem with uTorrent not allowing you to select individual files. I've been using Vuze/Azureus so I was past those secondary issues long ago.
The real problem with magnet links and the implementation of infrastructure decentralization (search/indexing and distribution) is that it purposefully obstructs the archiving of torrents. While that is a fact of life on filesharing sites such as movie/warez, it stands in total opposition to the nature of D-Addicts. D-A is not only a "new release" site. It has always been an important source for old and rare content as well.
I would go on and on but it seems to me that the discussion has not yet progressed enough to continue. More people need to realize the true nature of the problem before we can have any serious discussion. Unfortunately it seems there are also some who do not believe it is a even a worthy consideraton.
cindy25 wrote:I've used magnet links for single episodes on a different site, and no problem.

but for a season pack it wants to start the entire pack, even if you need just one episode

You should probably make a post in the Tech Support section for more help. You need to provide details such as what version of uTorrent you are using as there are differences in magnet handling between version 2.x and 3.x.

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Postby BaekSoo » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:38 am

To all who are moaning and grumbling about the change: Magnet links. Does it work? Is it necessary to change? Will D-A vanish if there's no changes made?

There's a real possibility D-A will vanish if there's no changes made. ACTA is a real threat. If you think otherwise then you're just burying your head in the sand.

I agree with saigo_x that D-A has always been an important source for old and rare content.

But if D-A dies, then the source of old and rare content dies with it.

I think Ruroshin (The founder of D-A) realizes the true nature of the problem better than anyone. He needs to make changes to keep D-A from an early death.

I remember the time D-A was down and how I felt at the time. I even called up my ISP to ask if they were blocking the website. To my relief it was back up after a few hours.

Now imagine if D-A was gone for good. How would you feel then?

Next time you feel the need to complain, ask yourself this question, do I have D-A's best interest at heart?

What can I do to keep D-A from dying?

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Postby saigo_x » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:35 am

BaekSoo wrote:I agree with saigo_x that D-A has always been an important source for old and rare content.

But if D-A dies, then the source of old and rare content dies with it.

As long as it's clear to everyone that moving to magnet links will result in many of the old and rare torrents dying. Not might but will. It could be many times worse if adaquate precautions are not taken. Not to speak of the host of other problems that have barely been mentioned and even ones not discussed at all.
Next time you feel the need to complain, ask yourself this question, do I have D-A's best interest at heart?

I spoke up because it was clear the debate was centered around implementation and not the real problems of decentralization. Not only that but there was a great misunderstanding of the way magnet links actually worked. This not my first experience with these problems. I've been trying to move the conversation forward but it is clear that that will not happen.

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Postby Starfire12 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:59 pm

I can use magnet links without problems. However there seems to be one problem with it: Only one tracker.

I just tried downloading episodes 71&72 of King Gwanggaeto, but the connection to the tracker timed out. So I loaded the torrents as well and got three working trackers for each episode.

Now perhaps it's may be possible for D-A to use magnet links supporting multiple trackers in one link in the future, but until then we really still need torrents.
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Postby GPanime » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:26 pm

Yeah, if that is fixed, I will prefer magnets.

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Postby saigo_x » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:06 pm

Starfire12 wrote:Now perhaps it's may be possible for D-A to use magnet links supporting multiple trackers in one link in the future, but until then we really still need torrents.

That's already possible. See this Pirate Bay magnet link for example:
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7284b6bb4d30bf6b7eb08272a315e202e73631ff&dn=Galileo JDrama&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80

See the Wikipedia section on the tracker parameter for magnet URI's for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme#Address_tracker_.28tr.29.

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Postby \( -o _ o- )/ » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:31 am

People.....Read the first page.

Follow the tutorial to manually add trackers and you won't have any problems.

http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopi ... 71#1426671

Any working tracker will work for any torrent. There are no specific tracker for a torrent.
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Postby Starfire12 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:48 am

Thanks for that! However manually adding trackers, hardly is ease of use compared to just clicking on a torrent link.

Still we should probably be getting there in due time.
Just introduce a woman, - Conspiracies succeed; - Of soldiers or their weapons, - There really is no need. - They fought their bloody battles, - And doughty deeds were done; - but in a garden summer house - The victory was won.

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Postby saigo_x » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 pm

saigo_x wrote:Secondly, there is no guarantee that I will download the torrent file that the original uploader created. Because the magnet only points to the info hash/ I could be downloading a torrent file that uses the old D-A tracker.

I've been looking into the details of magnet handling and it appears that Vuze/Azureus strays from the official specification. It looks like the mainline clients transfer only the metadata part of the torrent file. Vuze on the other hand actually requests the complete torrent file (including tracker list, comments, etc) from the peer. This might be a problem when it comes to magnet links that include trackers. Vuze adds the trackers in the magnet link to the existing tracker list from the torrent file. I still need to do further testing to see if any errors can occur.

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Postby takeda_shingen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:15 pm

Now the pirate bay went magnets only as well: http://thepiratebay.se/blog/208 Glancing over the comments the discussion seemed familiar. Guess with that most client issues will be solved soon.

saigo_x
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Postby saigo_x » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:00 pm

TorrentFreak wrote:Torrents that are only shared by a handful of people (<10 ) will remain available for now, to ensure that the files remain accessible. For magnet links to work at least one person in the swarm should have the complete .torrent file and a BitTorrent client that supports magnet links.

"We put the 10 peer limit in just in case someone who created a torrent has an outdated client that doesn't support magnets. By now all common torrent clients support magnets," TorrentFreak was told.

Like I said, I still haven't seen a good solution for this problem and obviosuly neither have they. Reuploading seems to be the only real solution. That requires establishing a protocol/system that will ensure the reuploaded content is the same as the original. And that must be in place before moving to magnet links only. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out on TPB. We can ignore the issues with magnet handling. What we need to look for is the lifespan of torrents overall and the distribution of small swarm torrents in particular. :salut:

takeda_shingen
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Postby takeda_shingen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:33 pm

saigo_x wrote:Like I said, I still haven't seen a good solution for this problem and obviosuly neither have they.
One possible solution might be a distributed torrent cache, where clients set aside a few megabytes of space and exchange torrents between them. Not sure about implementation details, possibly the magnet protocol, the dht itself, or Tribler's overlay network could do that. One problem might be that if every user of a torrent client has random torrents on their hd (even if they're encrypted, so the users don't even know which), the torrent protocol itself might be pushed more into illegal terrain than it already is.

saigo_x
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Postby saigo_x » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:59 pm

takeda_shingen wrote:One possible solution might be a distributed torrent cache, where clients set aside a few megabytes of space and exchange torrents between them. Not sure about implementation details, possibly the magnet protocol, the dht itself, or Tribler's overlay network could do that. One problem might be that if every user of a torrent client has random torrents on their hd (even if they're encrypted, so the users don't even know which), the torrent protocol itself might be pushed more into illegal terrain than it already is.

Most torrent clients already allow for storing downloaded torrents for archiving and transfer via DHT. But it only has minimal application because it depends on what the user downloads. Unfortunately I seriously doubt any of the client developers or indexing sites will consider a more complex system. The whole point of moving to magnet links is for them to throw the risk and thus burden of torrent distribution on the peers themselves. D-Addicts would expose itself to risk just by the mere participation in any such system. Regarding the technical aspect, it would ideally require a centralized index from which to form the cache so as to minimize redundancy. Not only that, but it does not specifically address the main issue with old and rare torrents as there is no practical way to differentiate them from new and popular torrents.

takeda_shingen
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Postby takeda_shingen » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:40 pm

saigo_x wrote:Regarding the technical aspect, it would ideally require a centralized index from which to form the cache so as to minimize redundancy.
But redundancy is the whole point. If we don't care about redundancy, we can just continue to use zoink, torcache and torrage. Ok, there is some redundancy in having three sites instead of one, but much less than having the torrents distributed over and retrievable from millions of machines (the pirate bay shows 40 million, azureus usually between 1 and 2 million users online).

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Postby saigo_x » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:18 pm

takeda_shingen wrote:But redundancy is the whole point. If we don't care about redundancy, we can just continue to use zoink, torcache and torrage. Ok, there is some redundancy in having three sites instead of one, but much less than having the torrents distributed over and retrievable from millions of machines (the pirate bay shows 40 million, azureus usually between 1 and 2 million users online).

Actually no, redundancy is secondary. The primary focus is availability. New and popular torrents will always have high availability. It's the old an rare torrents that are the problem. The cache system must focus on making older and rare torrents more available. There are over 40 thousand torrents on D-Addicts at the moment. It will be difficult to develope a manageable system to ensure both availability and redundancy.

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Postby takeda_shingen » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:31 am

saigo_x wrote:Actually no, redundancy is secondary. The primary focus is availability. New and popular torrents will always have high availability. It's the old an rare torrents that are the problem. The cache system must focus on making older and rare torrents more available. There are over 40 thousand torrents on D-Addicts at the moment. It will be difficult to develope a manageable system to ensure both availability and redundancy.
Well, the current website caches already provide availability, so I took that as granted, whereas redundancy is the feature needed to protect against single points of failure (a triple point of failure?).

The pirate bay says it has about 30,000,000 users and 7,000,000 torrents at the moment. Say every client reserves 1 MB of space and the average size of a torrent is 100 KB.
30000000 users * 1000000 bytes / (7000000 torrents * 100000 bytes) = 43 users/torrent
Now we can save every torrent 43 times (I think PerfectDark reserves 40 GB for random stuff, take one percent of that and you're at over 16000 users/torrent). We "just" have to make sure that torrents below some availability threshold propagate through the network. Well, this is just what came to my mind, I don't know if this is even a good idea, so I won't try fleshing it out further, writing this took long enough anyway.

saigo_x
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Postby saigo_x » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:19 pm

takeda_shingen wrote:Well, the current website caches already provide availability, so I took that as granted, whereas redundancy is the feature needed to protect against single points of failure (a triple point of failure?).

The pirate bay says it has about 30,000,000 users and 7,000,000 torrents at the moment. Say every client reserves 1 MB of space and the average size of a torrent is 100 KB.
30000000 users * 1000000 bytes / (7000000 torrents * 100000 bytes) = 43 users/torrent
Now we can save every torrent 43 times (I think PerfectDark reserves 40 GB for random stuff, take one percent of that and you're at over 16000 users/torrent). We "just" have to make sure that torrents below some availability threshold propagate through the network. Well, this is just what came to my mind, I don't know if this is even a good idea, so I won't try fleshing it out further, writing this took long enough anyway.

Like I said before, the problem is the chance of something that professional being implemented is almost zero. I have yet to see anyone on the developer side or the index sites even suggest they care about losing old torrents. The few times it's been brought up the answer is always "reupload". Unless someone is willing to create a cache themselves and go through all the trouble required to maintain it I just don't see this idea going anywhere. It's not a bad idea, but I don't see it as very realistic in our area.
The only practical solution I've thought of is requiring that uploaders make a list of the torrent contents including some type of file verification (CRC32/MD5/etc) in their initial post. I remember oldtime uploaders often included SFV files in their torrents, but very few people ever kept them. More than a few times I had to dig up the SFV files for old uploads so that everyone could reach completion. Having that information in the post would be better. Of course I don't really imagine all the uploaders would want to take those extra steps.


@Ruroshin
Did you ever create the torrent file archive you discussed in the "Plan for new torrent system" thread? If so, is there any chance of you uploading it? If not, can you provide help on a way to easily create an archive. I recall the D-A tracker was structured in a way that made it easier, but since that is gone I don't know how to go about it now.

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Sorvaseven
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Postby Sorvaseven » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:37 am

@Ruroshin
You recently changed the menu bar (Torrents -> Dramas / DramaWiki -> Wiki). Is it also possible and expedient to change the menu item 'Stats' into 'Subtitles'? I mean 'Stats' is really meaningless, but http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/subtitles.php this site would be a great supplementation and is also one of the most important sites next to the torrent list.

mhp
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Postby mhp » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:29 pm

Please implement the change in RSS as well.


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