Fansubber Guidelines Rev 2 (Draft)

Discuss fansubbing issues, problems, or learn how to create fansubs.
User avatar
mizune
Geinou Fansubber
Geinou Fansubber
Posts: 2191
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: undercover admin

Fansubber Guidelines Rev 2 (Draft)

Postby mizune » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:32 pm

Time for the annual update...

From when the Fansubber Guidelines were first posted, they were meant to be flexible in order to allow for changes needed to fit the current state of the fansubbing community. And now I'm getting the impression that we've reached the critical mass for a pretty big change.... Please keep reading...

As technology has enabled more people to participate and the drama fansubbing community has grown, we've tried our best to encourage more fansubbers to participate while minimizing the friction between groups as the entire community transitions from "how things used to be" to "how things are". In the past, we saw some pretty nasty conflicts which led to unfortunate results, so the following are suggestions regarding fansubber etiquette that will hopefully help minimize the number of conflicts between groups and lay out some basic guidelines for groups using D-Addicts as a distro site.

We want to create a community that encourages people to feel welcome and to participate...
We want to evolve with the times and technology...
But we don't want to scare anybody off either...

==================================

DRAFT
"How to be a Good Fansubber"
Basic guidelines on getting along in the world of drama fansubbing. (Rev 2.1)
2008.4.27

The number one thing to remember is still, and ever will be...
The Golden Rule:
Simply put: Treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself.
The most important thing to keep in mind is having respect for others and for the work others produce. Not just in words, but through your actions as well.
If you remember this above all else, everything else just follows naturally. :)

Competition/multiple groups working on a project:
Multiple subtitled versions of a series are allowed on the site and tracker. (See below for more details)

As always though, we encourage everyone here to consider collaborations as much as possible and to make a formal announcement of your intentions somewhere highly visible, such as in the Fansubber Forum,Fansub wiki, and/or on your group's own website. (Making announcements in discussion threads is not effective, as they tend to be flooded off too quickly for others to be aware of your intentions.) See the D-Addicts Fansub Groups for more information on groups releasing here or if you'd like to add your own group. :)

Resolving disputes/conflicts:
This isn't a perfect world, and we don't harbor any illusions that everybody will get along all the time. This applies to disputes between fansub groups as well as between fans and fansub groups.

However, when such occasions arise we strongly recommend that any issues or disputes be dealt with through PM instead of openly on the forums.
The rationale for this is simply to keep the conversation focused between the parties involved without losing focus. Whenever disputes are broadcast on the forums, they become open to comments from the peanut gallery, who don't always understand the situation fully, and usually end up clouding the problem and escalating the argument.

If you don't feel comfortable approaching the other party about your problem, or have reached a point where a neutral party is necessary, please PM one of the moderators for help. Finding an amicable solution is in the best interests of this community, and all the moderators are dedicated to helping facilitate issues in a neutral manner.

As any veteran fansubber will tell you though:
If you intend to be a fansubber, grow a thick skin. Fansubbing has a tendency of making you the target for a lot of insults or attacks for any number of reasons. The best way of dealing with trolls is to ignore them or to bring them to the attention of one of the moderators.

Overall: Don't let your wounds fester. It's in everybody's best interest to treat and find solutions to problems before they get bigger. I admit there may not be a perfect solution, but I'd at least like to try to find one.

Soft-subs:
1. While it's okay to post your own translations of a drama that already has an existing sub, please do not post corrected or modified soft subs of another translator's work unless you have contacted the original translator and gained their permission first.
2. Do not offer soft-sub transcriptions of fansubbed dramas that have been hardsubbed unless you have been given expressed permission by the original group.
3. When transcribing from a TV source, be sure to include proper credits to the original translator/broadcast source.
4. Do not start uploading subs from the middle of a series already in the progress of being subtitled (either hard and soft subs) unless there is expressed permission from the original fansubber.

Uploading Torrents:
1. Make sure you read and understand the General Torrent Guidelines.
2. Please upload torrents in sequence. In other words, start with episode 1 and continue in the order of the series. Don't skip episodes!

Miscellaneous tips to stay on the sunny side of life:
1. Please remember that no single group "owns" the right to subtitle a series exclusively. It would be best if both groups could at least discuss the possibility of collaborating on the project, but if they ultimately choose to work independently on the same project, there should be no hard feelings or penalties leveled at either group. This is supposed to be a hobby -- something "fun" :roll. We all know how tedious a job this is, and nobody needs to deal with all the extra baggage of a potential flame war. Just wish each other luck and move on.
2. Update the progress of subtitles every now and then to keep the masses from getting too unruly (read: annoying :fear: ). This is particularly true if there is a sudden and unusual change from your normal or expected routine.


Don't forget that the Fansubbing board is here to both help fansubbers and to provide a means of communicating between groups!
Don't be afraid to use it!

:dance:

Or to contact a mod you trust if all else fails :fear:

Thanks!

Related Info/Resources:
D-Addicts Uploading Rules
D-addicts Fansub Wiki

==============

The modified "competition clause" rationale
This was actually added into the update last year, but I don't think it quite sunk in with everybody... Just what does this mean? It means that different groups can work on the same series even if one group announced their intentions before the other. No more "claiming" for series (on the condition that all subtitled series must be uploaded in sequence, starting from the first episode... Which is in accordance with the other rules already established on this site.)

When we first started, there were very few drama fansubbers around, so in order to maximize the number of translated series that got completed, we maintained the traditional honor system which gave preferential "rights" to the group which first announced their intention to subtitle the series. This was a long time ago, and I think the number of fansub groups in operation now currently makes this practice impractical.

There are some who may feel that competition is the path towards doom and gloom, but I think it's in the best interests of both the fansubbing and viewing community to open the waters. As long as everybody is open-minded and aware of it, competition can:
1. Improve the speed and quality of subtitles offered by competing fansub groups.
2. Reduce the number of stagnant fansub projects that are never completed because the single group which has claimed the series has disappeared.
3. Keep fansubbers interested in their work by truly allowing them to subtitle the series they WANT to (as opposed to barring them from subbing anything because another group has already announced their intention).

If competition shows up, it should not be looked at as a "threat". It should be recognized as an opportunity to improve your art. :)

Discussion
1. Do others agree with this change to the competition clause? Feedback please...
2. Are all genres (JDrama, KDrama, CDrama variants) ready for the change or only a couple?
3. Anything else you want to discuss (doesn't have to be related to the competition clause change) to shove me out of my Utopian bubble.... ^_^;

As always, I want ppl to be able to express their opinion and discuss without fear of being flamed. If you want to bring something up anonymously, you can either PM a mod you are comfortable with or use the Report Post button to comment.

One more thing
Let's try and keep this civil, folks.... :fear: :whistling:

Oh, and thanks for reading this far.... :p
Last edited by mizune on Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Read the D-Addicts FAQ before asking questions.
No movies here, so please don't request. Check the Asian Movie Torrent Links.

furransu
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:51 pm

Postby furransu » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:38 pm

wow this is awesome! now different people and groups can do any drama series freely :) i support this :)

User avatar
AkumaX
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1227
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:50 am
Contact:

Postby AkumaX » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:42 am

cool, this is great! also that you happen to publish it on 420 :P

User avatar
Ladymercury
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:04 am

Postby Ladymercury » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:51 pm

I'm just copying and pasting what I wrote in the Zettai Kareshi thread about the fansub group that wants to do their own subbing despite the fact SARS claimed it or something...

----
We had this type of situation in the tokusatsu (live action special effects) sub world. Honestly, I believe that any group can start a sub as long as they start from episode one.

It's not OUR show and its not like we bought the sole licensing rights to this show. We are fans and if one group of fans want to sub a show because they were a fan of the manga (like me) then let them do it. Its not our right to say who or who can not sub a series.

Anyway, on that note, I should finish Princess Princess D.... god, sucks when members of a sub group go on hiatus and you're the only one left. D:

--------

But since you already said what I already said in your clause, I totally say yay! I mean, we are all fans... not distributer, we should appreciate what comes out, not lynch because someone wants to do their OWN version.

... :)

User avatar
lilswtangel
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 3294
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:22 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

Postby lilswtangel » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:53 pm

I wholly support the changes.

This way, new fansub groups won't have to fear criticisms from a barricade of fans over the issue of "but this group has already signed up for this drama." Hypocritically, I used to support that rule until many others started being badasses by scaring away potential fansubbers with their rude remarks.

I would like to say that Fansubbers (although no longer rare) are a godsend part of the community and if they're offering their time and dedication to sub whatever drama, they definitely don't deserve the backlash and offensive comments from others telling them, "no, you can't sub so and so".

torerling
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:46 pm

Postby torerling » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:10 pm

I'm not that sure I like this, This is a hobby, and I really liked the courtesy and niceness of not treading on eachothers toes.. And I wouldn't appreciate it if some redo my stuff and I feel like this is kind of encouraging "remixed" subs, something I guess most of us do not like. There is good drama that don't get subbed, so I really don't get why we shouldn't broaden our scope instead of grouping together on the most popular ones, but that may be only a stupid fear from my side? or is it anything in it?

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Re: Fansubber Guidelines Rev 2 (Draft)

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:29 pm

mizune wrote:Soft-subs:
1. While it's okay to post your own translations of a drama that already has an existing sub, please do not post corrected or modified soft subs of another translator's work unless you have contacted the original translator and gained their permission first.


they are saying that no one can redo or "remix" your work...without your expressed permission.

plus, while i do agree that having 4 different groups work on the same show is pretty ridiculous....i also have to play the devils advocate and say that some groups put out more accurate translations than other groups. and i wouldn't want to force anyone to work on shows that they have no interest in.

and most importantly, if groups can just claim a show so that no one else can work on it, there is a possibility of some shows being left undone because the group that claimed it doesn't have the staff or time to work on it.

User avatar
lilswtangel
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 3294
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:22 am
Location: NYC
Contact:

Postby lilswtangel » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:31 pm

torerling wrote:I'm not that sure I like this, This is a hobby, and I really liked the courtesy and niceness of not treading on eachothers toes.. And I wouldn't appreciate it if some redo my stuff and I feel like this is kind of encouraging "remixed" subs, something I guess most of us do not like. There is good drama that don't get subbed, so I really don't get why we shouldn't broaden our scope instead of grouping together on the most popular ones, but that may be only a stupid fear from my side? or is it anything in it?


ah but you do have a valid point there.

I remember not too long ago when a solo fansubber (or at least I think she was working by herself ^^;;) took the hard work of a prominent fansub group and butchered the translator's work by rewording a few things and restructuring the sentences....and then somehow ended up with horribly misspelled words and grammatically incorrect sentences!

But I think as far as translating the same drama goes, there are bound to be a few similarities in some sense considering there's only so much a sentence can be translated or worded as.

torerling
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:46 pm

Re: Fansubber Guidelines Rev 2 (Draft)

Postby torerling » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:35 pm

battlegirlai wrote:
mizune wrote:Soft-subs:
1. While it's okay to post your own translations of a drama that already has an existing sub, please do not post corrected or modified soft subs of another translator's work unless you have contacted the original translator and gained their permission first.


they are saying that no one can redo or "remix" your work...without your expressed permission.

plus, while i do agree that having 4 different groups work on the same show is pretty ridiculous....i also have to play the devils advocate and say that some groups put out more accurate translations than other groups. and i wouldn't want to force anyone to work on shows that they have no interest in.

and most importantly, if groups can just claim a show so that no one else can work on it, there is a possibility of some shows being left undone because the group that claimed it doesn't have the staff or time to work on it.

I know that one is supposed to do it, I just said it is like a bit more endorsement, and I fear that people can do it.I'm with you that things that has been claimed and not followed up on is a bad thing, but I don't think that letting everything loose is the best way to do it.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:52 pm

im not sure i follow your line of thinking....

saying "no, you can't do this" would be endorsing people do to it? the people who are going to do it, already do it, and having this rule against it gives the people who did the original work the ability to go to the d-a mods and say "this person is altering our work, please have it removed" and the mods will be able to do so because its in the site rules.

not having this rule would tie the mods hands and leave absolutely no way to have the redone stuff removed.

but as for the claiming shows issue...who is to be the judge of how long a group can sit on a show before it should be released for other groups to have a shot at? will there be waiting lists? what are acceptable reasons for a show taking a long time? who will be the ones to make these decisions? will the groups be able to plead for more time? do d-a mods and admins really want to be the judges in these cases?

there are just too many factors and as this is a hobby, not a job, i don't think any of us want to be policing the very people who work hard to bring us subs for free. would anyone want to release fansubs on a site where they try to dictate how and what you should fansub?

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:57 pm

Ladymercury wrote:I'm just copying and pasting what I wrote in the Zettai Kareshi thread about the fansub group that wants to do their own subbing despite the fact SARS claimed it or something...

just to avoid misunderstandings...
sars hasn't claimed zettai kareshi, and nobody at sars is giving any softsubber or hardsubber a hard time about subbing this...
quite the opposite, actually... :-)


@torerling: the topmost rule of course is that subbers cannot simply recycle other fansubbers' work and pass it off as their own...
allowing fansubbers to freely sub what they want to sub is in no way an endorsement of plagiarism... XD
torerling wrote:I'm with you that things that has been claimed and not followed up on is a bad thing, but I don't think that letting everything loose is the best way to do it.


and battlegirlai just took the answers to this right out of my mouth in the meantime...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:03 pm

3. Don't make a new thread for a drama with an existing subtitle thread. Instead, PM a moderator so that it can be added it to the first post of the existing thread.


I think this rule should be repealed. Each fansub is entitled to create their own thread of the same drama. Afterwards, they should contact the Mods for cross-listing / cross-linking.

It's just for ease of updating. I just don't want to burden the Mods every time the sub is updated per fansub.
Say, 5 fansubs, 15 eps ==> 75x update report to mod. Don't you think it's scary?

User avatar
groink
Posts: 3218
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:58 am
Location: Pearl City, Hawaii

Postby groink » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:05 pm

Regarding simultaneous projects for the same show, does this also pertain to hardsubbed uploads to the tracker? It was this situation that really caused the "no competition" mentality in that it didn't make sense to have two identical works uploaded. Currently, D-Addicts allow:

- two different RAW uploads of the same show, as long as there's quite a difference between the two such as resolution. So having mulitple soft subs wouldn't affect this.

- only one hardsubbed fansub of a show is allowed.

--- groink
Last edited by groink on Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1. Always read FAQs for a given forum before posting.
2. Read the first few posts in a topic before posting.
3. Speak using complete English words.
4. The Internet is international. Respect regional and cultural values.

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:07 pm

I believe the rules should also apply for hardsubbed fansub works (not TV or DVD rips).

torerling
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:46 pm

Postby torerling » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:07 pm

groink wrote:Regarding simultaneous projects for the same show, does this also pertain to hardsubbed uploads to the tracker? It was this situation that really caused the "no competition" mentality in that it didn't make sense to have two identical works uploaded. Currently, D-Addicts allow:

- two different RAW uploads of the same show, as long as there's quite a difference between the two such as resolution. So having mulitple soft subs wouldn't affect this.

- only one hardsubbed fansub of a show is allowed.

--- groink

M, a point here may be that with different hards it would be less people to seed on each torrent too, and a lot of redundancy..

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:10 pm

abcd99 wrote:I think this rule should be repealed. Each fansub is entitled to create their own thread of the same drama. Afterwards, they should contact the Mods for cross-listing / cross-linking.

It's just for ease of updating. I just don't want to burden the Mods every time the sub is updated per fansub.
Say, 5 fansubs, 15 eps ==> 75x update report to mod. Don't you think it's scary?

i think it's also better to give each individual subber their own thread and once the series is completed, the threads can be merged...
just as long as everyone understands you'll all be somewhat sharing thank yous since the merged posts still appear in chronological posting order...

groink wrote:- only one hardsubbed fansub of a show is allowed.


that is like completely wrong...
several versions of hardsubs have been allowed for over a year now... :sweat:
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
groink
Posts: 3218
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:58 am
Location: Pearl City, Hawaii

Postby groink » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:14 pm

ironicwave wrote:that is like completely wrong...
several versions of hardsubs have been allowed for over a year now... :sweat:

Don't mix this up with hard-subbed TV rips. I'm referring to two fansubbed hardsubs. I haven't seen this in the Japanese drama uploads. And if this happens in any other genre, I filter them out. If there are examples I'm missing, please list them.
1. Always read FAQs for a given forum before posting.

2. Read the first few posts in a topic before posting.

3. Speak using complete English words.

4. The Internet is international. Respect regional and cultural values.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:17 pm

i'm referring to the same thing...
hana yori dango, yukan club to name some semi-recent ones...
and several versions of the same show hardsubbed by different groups have indeed been allowed for over a year... :-)
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
groink
Posts: 3218
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:58 am
Location: Pearl City, Hawaii

Postby groink » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:21 pm

ironicwave wrote:i'm referring to the same thing...
hana yori dango, yukan club to name some semi-recent ones...
and several versions of the same show hardsubbed by different groups has indeed been allowed for over a year... :-)

Figures. I don't watch any of those either.

If that's allowed, then why are we even having this discussion regardnig multiple softsubs????? :scratch: That too should've already been allowed. That's what baffles me at this moment.
1. Always read FAQs for a given forum before posting.

2. Read the first few posts in a topic before posting.

3. Speak using complete English words.

4. The Internet is international. Respect regional and cultural values.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:27 pm

those have also been allowed before...
the focus of the revision is that groups won't have any claiming rights to the series, so it doesn't matter who announced first, etc...
moving away from the idea of "project ownership" more firmly i guess you could say...
it would seem that in a lot of cases, this change hadn't sunk in yet...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:31 pm

ironicwave wrote:i think it's also better to give each individual subber their own thread and once the series is completed, the threads can be merged...
just as long as everyone understands you'll all be somewhat sharing thank yous since the merged posts still appear in chronological posting order...


i must have misunderstood what the draft said about that...i thought that was referring to people posting softsubs from the same group shouldn't post duplicate threads.

merging all the softsubs for a single show into a single thread would be beyond awful. since the post would be in chronological order, whoever started first would be the ones with control of the thread and not all the different groups would have their subs on the first post.

you can't ask a group that put a lot of work into their subs to basically play second fiddle to the thread starter. anybody looking for softsubs won't go past the first post to look for alternate versions...they will see the first ones and get those.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:41 pm

currently, softsub threads are supposed to be shared... i agreed in my previous post that not giving each individual subber the means to update at will in their own thread is less than ideal... i would favor combining the threads after the show is completed though; everybody i think will have had their time to interact with their fans and it makes the thread count more manageable for mods and people searching for subs...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:52 pm

i still can't agree. you will cause groups to start fighting to get the first thread out so that they will have control over the thread and secure their softsubs the first post position.

you risk groups putting out "placemarker" threads so that they can get top spot....and people arguing within one thread which groups subs are better than the others.

because you know there will be newbies who will ask "there are three different sets of softsubs here, which one is the best?" having it in one thread basically flaunts to the others "these softsubs are more downloaded than yours" "these softsubs are better than yours"...

at least with them being separated, nobody is up in each others faces. because even when a series is done...it sometimes doesn't end there...what about specials? what about extras? you have to allow people their own space

User avatar
groink
Posts: 3218
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:58 am
Location: Pearl City, Hawaii

Postby groink » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:53 pm

ironicwave wrote:currently, softsub threads are supposed to be shared... i agreed in my previous post that not giving each individual subber the means to update at will in their own thread is less than ideal... i would favor combining the threads after the show is completed though; everybody i think will have had their time to interact with their fans and it makes the thread count more manageable for mods and people searching for subs...

Or how about this idea: Instead of a merge at the end of the projects, have a moderator create a NEW topic and copy the soft subs for all projects to it. In the new topic, organize it as such:

X_GROUP Fansubs
- Episode 1
- Episode 2
- Episode 3....

Y_GROUP Fansubs
- Episode 1
- Episode 2
- Episode 3....

And then lock the older topics. This allows for the moderators to keep things organized by starting from a clean slate. Those in-progress project topics can get SOOOOOO LOOOOOOONG at times, and keeping them indefinitely isn't all that useful.

--- groink
1. Always read FAQs for a given forum before posting.

2. Read the first few posts in a topic before posting.

3. Speak using complete English words.

4. The Internet is international. Respect regional and cultural values.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:57 pm

with a new thread that is no longer under their control, groups can no longer update subs or fix problems that they missed, add files, or remove their own subs without pestering a mod to do it for them.

merging the softsubs threads is a disaster waiting to happen

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:02 pm

I like groink's idea better about mods creating a separate, new thread.

I agree with battlegirlai that merging threads would be disastrous.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:04 pm

groink might be on the right track there though for a decent compromise...
and asking a mod to post up revisions later once the series is over is not as terrible as having to ask for every single episode to be posted...
we could also allow for a certain period of time after the subs are completed before we open a new thread with just the subs in them...
as for the download count, that's really no different than the tracker stats for hardsubs, it's all public for those that care to look...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:16 pm

but its not totally rubbing it directly in each others faces every time you go to check on the status of your own work...theres a difference.

and yes...pming a mod for every little change will become annoying not just for the fansubbers, but for the mods, i'll wager. we can immediately fix things ourselves as things are now...from small things a simple as a misspelled name, to completely removing all the subs. you'd be effectively cutting off the majority of control we have over our subs after they are done.

and some groups put their personality into their softsub threads. they take the time to make banners and screencaps and have links of interest and such...combining it all into one thread where you don't know who is talking about whose subs...ugh

double and triple ugh.

can one or two extra threads really be so hard for the mods to deal with? maybe i'm not properly understanding the reasoning behind wanting to merge them.

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:22 pm

Mods must also take into account that some of these fansubs will go MIA. So, I think it's not wise to wait for everyone to finish subbing before creating a new thread. This makes me believe that crosslinking / crosslisting the subs is a more suitable compromise.

User avatar
Puppet Princess
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:27 pm
Location: Hawaii

Postby Puppet Princess » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:27 pm

So if we are going to be putting all versions of softsubs in one thread will we also be batching every version of hardsubs in one torrent as well? That will remove extra threads too.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:34 pm

i'm just trying to combine mod/fansubber views as they stand atm to a decent compromise by agreeing to groink's idea... i think it holds merit...
i don't have any major preference either way since i've only ever created one softsub and i couldn't care less if those subs were posted with someone else's if such a situation would arise...
i appreciate user feedback, by all means, but when a series is over, it's over for me...
hardsub or softsub... *shrugs*

@abcd99: not that this will happen any time soon, but if you were to have 3 different subbers for every series and we keep every thread forever eventually you'll completely bust at the seams... every season already provides loads and loads more threads... keeping the tail of every fansubbers' thread will eventually cause trouble... especially in threads where the exchange is super chatty...

@battlegirlai: i don't know how long other groups plan to revise and rerevise their subs, my suggestion would be to shoot for perfection the first time around? :sweat:
and i imagine groups could still receive thank yous in the single thread from latecomers...
oh, and i don't see why the "beautification" of the threads can't be carried over either if that makes a difference...

@Puppet Princess: ah, enter sarcasm... how is that a constructive comment? no one's ruling anything out yet, everyone here is just voicing opinions and so far in a pretty good atmosphere without attitude...
Last edited by ironicwave on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
amrayu
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2208
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:30 am
Location: South Bay
Contact:

Postby amrayu » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:36 pm

We haven't really discussed the issue of how to manage the multiple softsub threads yet.
But I figure 1 thread per group will suffice and then an index thread for each series like groink has mentioned. If a group is unable to complete the series after a decent amount of time has passed, we could lock the thread, and eventually delete it if the subber is MIA.
Or a big index of all softsubs that includes all versions of every softsubbed series.

We're still refining the guidelines...
And everyone is free to voice their opinion.
Follow SARS-Fansubs on Twitter now!
Get up-to-date info on dramas and fansubbing!

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:43 pm

Or, alternatively mods could lock the threads maybe a week or so after its completion and do what groink said (open new thread). The other non-completed threads can stay open for a while.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:49 pm

@ironicwave - thats your view on softsubs...you dont mind...thats fine...but others will and do. a "thanks for the hard work" means a great deal to some subbers even after a show is finished. it means that people still appreciate it. if you have to share that thank you with one or two other groups...it loses that warm fuzzy feeling because you know it might not be you that they are thanking. and having a flashy group next to a regular group...please, lets be frank...the subs may be the same quality, but the eye will be drawn to the more flashy stuff.

also, no one is perfect...you can strive for perfection the first time around and still fall short. cutting off the ability to fix it later down the line is just downright cruel to people who do strive for perfection and want to make sure that they provide the most accurate work they can.

you read sarcasm in puppets post because thats what you want to hear. but she's right. if its just a matter of cutting down on threads...whats next?

@amrayu - isn't there already an index post with links to all the softsubs? why the concern with locking these posts? one or two thank yous on one old thread can't be any different than one or two thank yous on a merged thread.

@abcd99 - but some shows dont really end after a week...or even a year...some shows have specials that come out ages after the show has been completed...why create a whole new thread for it if the group that subbed the show subs the special? they could just add it on to the series thread and save space

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:57 pm

you're forgetting that i'm not making any decisions here, just voicing my opinion and i stated this as well...
and the evaluation of sarcasm is on point, because this
battlegirlai wrote:if its just a matter of cutting down on threads...whats next?

is just as understandable and a lot less sarcastic...
if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
moving on...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:05 pm

i fully understand that this is still in the discussion phase...and thats what i'm doing, discussing my point of view on it. i think its a seriously seriously unwise option.

User avatar
Puppet Princess
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:27 pm
Location: Hawaii

Postby Puppet Princess » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:07 pm

So what if my "constructive comment" is sarcastic or not? I still see it the same way. If you want to lump all the softsubs together you might as well do it with the hardsubs as well. Sarcasm does not make my statement meaningless.

If I choose to express my opinion and point with sarcasm and irony... that wasn't hostile or an attitude, what is wrong with that? It was to emphasis that fact that it seems silly to go through all this for the sake of a few threads.
Is it not ironic to create more threads in order to have less?

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:20 pm

well, if you choose to use sarcasm instead of a straightforward way to state your opinion, then you must also be prepared for it to come back to bite you in the rear, right?
let's just keep things in a moderate and friendly environment here and no one will get their feathers ruffled...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
amrayu
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2208
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:30 am
Location: South Bay
Contact:

Postby amrayu » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:23 pm

battlegirlai wrote:@amrayu - why the concern with locking these posts? one or two thank yous on one old thread can't be any different than one or two thank yous on a merged thread.


Locking threads where translators have been missing for several weeks with no updates. If you leave it open, people tend to post wanting to know what's happening or they start to demand subtitles then the bashing... which causes the thread to go nowhere fast. This will help cut down on clutter.

As for sarcasm, come on, leave it at the door. We're all discussing ways to revise/fix the guidelines here.
:salut:
Follow SARS-Fansubs on Twitter now!

Get up-to-date info on dramas and fansubbing!

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:29 pm

amrayu wrote:Locking threads where translators have been missing for several weeks with no updates. If you leave it open, people tend to post wanting to know what's happening or they start to demand subtitles then the bashing... which causes the thread to go nowhere fast. This will help cut down on clutter.


would people demand subs and progress from a group that has already completed the series?

i can see the point of locking old threads for incomplete series that the subber has vanished on...that makes complete sense. its unlikely that they will be back to finish it and therefore shouldn't be left for anyone to make mischief in.

but merging all completed softsubs for a show together? i still can't see how that would be worth the extra effort and potential friction between groups

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:33 pm

Well I believe that there's a misunderstanding right here. I think that mods already agreed not to merge threads.

Now it's the question of how to deal with partially completed sub threads so that the excessive chattiness can be curbed.

I propose to allow unfinished sub thread to open. However, if excessive chattiness is detected in the thread, mods should lock it immediately until the fansub is ready for the next update.

As for the specials or extras that might occur months later, fansub coordinators can simply PM the mods to unlock the corresponding threads.

I hope this is a palatable solution.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:38 pm

i still can't see the logic in locking completed series threads. what harm do some "thank you" posts do?

User avatar
gnossienneslent
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:23 pm
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Postby gnossienneslent » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:38 pm

Sarcasm? Did someone call my name?

I remember not too long ago when a solo fansubber (or at least I think she was working by herself ^^;;) took the hard work of a prominent fansub group and butchered the translator's work by rewording a few things and restructuring the sentences....and then somehow ended up with horribly misspelled words and grammatically incorrect sentences!


*snickers* I seem to remember that, too.

Well, pussycats, I would like to start off by thanking the mods for the following reasons:

1. You have to make unpopular decisions. I'm sure people hate you sometimes for it like they hate all authority that doesn't let them act as the omnipotent beings they believe themselves to be.

2. Taking on the responsibility of sorting out the mess that will ensue from this. I can see why these rules would have been enacted in the first place. If the house wants to change the rules, you have to change how you play or go home. This will work itself out, one way or another. It's wonderful that we can all discuss this and the mods do pay attention rather than acting as an oligarchy. Kudos to mods!


I suppose I should have been posting before, but I'm much more for arguing in practice than hashing things out in theory.

This post is kind of flat, sorry. The blue section there is in all seriousness, well the thanks part anyway. I would love to expound on this, but I must go out in search of some caffeine. There doesn't seem to ba a shortage of opinion here anyway.

BadasSubs, For the Hello of it™
Selectively recruiting
©Jane Doe
Subject to terms and availability.

SPQd-a

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:41 pm

battlegirlai wrote:i still can't see the logic in locking completed series threads. what harm do some "thank you" posts do?


For popular dramas, many people will say thank you even after the threads are completed. If you have 100 people and 5 different fansubs are subbing the same dramas, then you'll have 500 posts of thank yous instead of just 100. Don't you think it's excessive? Repeat it for so many dramas and before long you'll encounter server overload.

User avatar
amrayu
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2208
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:30 am
Location: South Bay
Contact:

Postby amrayu » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:45 pm

battlegirlai wrote:would people demand subs and progress from a group that has already completed the series?

My suggestion is only for incomplete series.
battlegirlai wrote:but merging all completed softsubs for a show together? i still can't see how that would be worth the extra effort and potential friction between groups

Again, I don't really agree with that method (as I posted previously).
These guidelines aren't concrete, that's why we're discussing it now.
Follow SARS-Fansubs on Twitter now!

Get up-to-date info on dramas and fansubbing!

User avatar
Puppet Princess
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:27 pm
Location: Hawaii

Postby Puppet Princess » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:49 pm

Fine, freedom of expression be damned. If sarcasm gets everyone so bothered that they can't even comment on the issue I brought up I'll rephrase it.

I see no difference between soft and hard subs. So if softsubs will be lumped into one thread, logically shouldn't hardsubs be grouped together too?

If not can someone state clearly the perks of putting all sub versions into one thread that even caused such a thought?
If it's organization... the sub index should still be able to handle multiple versions.
If it's reducing threads... I still think it's ironic to create a thread to do this.

I honestly don't see why this change would be needed since if people were to look up a show in the sub index all versions would be listed there.

amrayu wrote:Locking threads where translators have been missing for several weeks with no updates. If you leave it open, people tend to post wanting to know what's happening or they start to demand subtitles then the bashing... which causes the thread to go nowhere fast. This will help cut down on clutter.


So instead of having no faith in people, lock threads when they become issues. I mean sometimes it may take a few months to release something. And who wants to keep track of when each team last updated each project. That seems like extra work too.

Locking threads because they "may" become problems seems unfair to both the fansubbers (since it makes it sound like "if you are slow we don't think you'll ever get this done") and well all the leechers (it makes it sound like "we think all of you are horrible ungrateful leeches who just want to harass people")

abcd99 wrote:For popular dramas, many people will say thank you even after the threads are completed. If you have 100 people and 5 different fansubs are subbing the same dramas, then you'll have 500 posts of thank yous instead of just 100. Don't you think it's excessive? Repeat it for so many dramas and before long you'll encounter server overload.


No less excessive then the people who see the need to copy/paste the same thank you to every torrent in a 50 episode series all at once.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:52 pm

@abcd99 - actually...what would be the odds that those 100 people would download all 5 sets of softsubs and thank each group? more than likely they would pick one group and unless the subs were bad, they'd stick with just those.

@amrayu - i know its still in discussion ^_^ you can't blame me for being...er...enthusiastic?...about my feelings on some of the issues under discussion. but i promise, i'll try to restrain myself a bit.

but so far i feel safe that your opinions, when the final decision comes to vote, will speak for mine.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:02 pm

Puppet Princess wrote:So instead of having no faith in people, lock threads when they become issues. I mean sometimes it may take a few months to release something. And who wants to keep track of when each team last updated each project. That seems like extra work too.


i dunno, i don't see the harm in locking a sub post that hasn't had a new ep uploaded in a long time and if the subber has gone mia. if they happen to come back, as abcd99? (wasn't it?) said, it would be easy enough to pm a mod to have it unlocked so they can continue. i can think of several shows off the top of my head that haven't had subs released in several months to a year with an mia subber that still get people posting "I can't wait for the next episode" or "is this series dead?"

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:02 pm

Puppet Princess wrote:No less excessive then the people who see the need to copy/paste the same thank you to every torrent in a 50 episode series all at once.

Yet it happened and will happen again.

battlegirlai wrote:@abcd99 - actually...what would be the odds that those 100 people would download all 5 sets of softsubs and thank each group? more than likely they would pick one group and unless the subs were bad, they'd stick with just those

I'm not sure how to put it. People will thank the fansubbers anyway without actually using their subs. So, this situation still may happen.

Also, so many people here seem to have the misconception of having a longer thread implies popularity. I've noticed it again and again in D-A. It's pretty common for a subtitle thread of a popular drama to have 50+ pages although the drama itself is probably only 20 episodes. So, it's not only thank yous, but also discussion, chats, etc. If we have 5 different threads of the same drama, we'll have 5 different discussions. This is the nightmare that the mods are considering right now.

This is also why I propose to allow incomplete subs to stay open and lock those that are completed. Then, the discussions, thank yous, etc can proceed in a single thread.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:06 pm

mod opinions don't weigh in any heavier than any of the other members' opinions here...
but it stands to reason that whatever decision stands at the end, somebody's opinion will not be realized...
this doesn't mean we have to argue each other into submission to get what we want or try to convince all and sundry to vote our way... XD
unless we're talking thank you buttons? then i'll come prepared for a good rousing argument... just kidding... :lol
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
groink
Posts: 3218
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:58 am
Location: Pearl City, Hawaii

Postby groink » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:07 pm

Is there possibly a non-messageboard solution? For example, if there's a piece of Internet software out there that allows people to upload files to a database of sorts - kind of like a DDL hosting software but with no expiration of files, that would be much more manageable than attempting to make the messageboard system into something it wasn't designed to do.

--- groink
1. Always read FAQs for a given forum before posting.

2. Read the first few posts in a topic before posting.

3. Speak using complete English words.

4. The Internet is international. Respect regional and cultural values.

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:08 pm

Off topic, but I think "thank you button" is an excellent idea to reduce post counts. I'd rather have that than a "thank you post".

User avatar
Puppet Princess
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:27 pm
Location: Hawaii

Postby Puppet Princess » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:10 pm

lol of course it will happen again. Some people get overzealous in the thank yous, though a larger percentage don't bother to thank at all.

abcd99 wrote:This is also why I propose to allow incomplete subs to stay open and lock those that are completed. Then, the discussions, thank yous, etc can proceed in a single thread.


You mean one thread for ALL shows like ever?

User avatar
amrayu
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2208
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:30 am
Location: South Bay
Contact:

Postby amrayu » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:10 pm

Puppet Princess wrote:I see no difference between soft and hard subs. So if softsubs will be lumped into one thread, logically shouldn't hardsubs be grouped together too?

I don't agree with merging threads together, that's just going to be one clusterfuck to maintain and coordinate between groups.

battlegirlai wrote:i dunno, i don't see the harm in locking a sub post that hasn't had a new ep uploaded in a long time and if the subber has gone mia. if they happen to come back, as abcd99? (wasn't it?) said, it would be easy enough to pm a mod to have it unlocked so they can continue. i can think of several shows off the top of my head that haven't had subs released in several months to a year with an mia subber that still get people posting "I can't wait for the next episode" or "is this series dead?"

Yes, this is what I'm referring to.

Puppet Princess wrote:So instead of having no faith in people, lock threads when they become issues. I mean sometimes it may take a few months to release something. And who wants to keep track of when each team last updated each project. That seems like extra work too.

It's not about having no faith, it's more about keeping order and avoiding messy situations later on. My suggestion is aimed towards new fansubbers who just "hit" and "run." One hit wonders as I call them.
Follow SARS-Fansubs on Twitter now!

Get up-to-date info on dramas and fansubbing!

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:15 pm

Puppet Princess wrote:You mean one thread for ALL shows like ever?


I mean one thread PER show albeit being subbed by five different fansub groups. I just don't like to see a proliferation of discussions on one drama. I think it's just frivolous.

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:16 pm

@amrayu: rofl, you said clusterf*ck... :lol

groink's idea was to post up one thread with all groups' subs in one top post and lock all old individual threads... basically keep the head and cut off the tail...


@abcd99: forget the thank you button... :wink: i like it as a theoretical and practical idea, but for some subbers who don't have a site the thank you thread is their only means of receiving feedback and that shouldn't be curtailed completely...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
Puppet Princess
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:27 pm
Location: Hawaii

Postby Puppet Princess » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:20 pm

abcd99 wrote:I mean one thread PER show albeit being subbed by five different fansub groups. I just don't like to see a proliferation of discussions on one drama. I think it's just frivolous.


Ohhh you meant ONLY shows that had multiple groups. lol

groink wrote:Is there possibly a non-messageboard solution? For example, if there's a piece of Internet software out there that allows people to upload files to a database of sorts - kind of like a DDL hosting software but with no expiration of files, that would be much more manageable than attempting to make the messageboard system into something it wasn't designed to do.

--- groink


Similar to the FSS host thing you mean, right? That would lessen the amount of BS to manage for sure, however, there would need to be a way make sure only mods and those who upload can delete or replace the files. That may be complicated though... I'm not sure what all something like that would involve.

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:29 pm

locking the threads won't curtail it completely?

i kinda like the idea of a thank you button too...something that won't bump the thread so if you want to thank on every hardsub release or after every softsub release, you can without annoying the whole world...granted...this is probably more a conversation topic for the how to improve d-a thread...but i think it has merit

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:35 pm

no it wouldn't because the sub threads would still be open to posts...
but the thank you button in many people's opinions doesn't leave enough room for creative interaction...
i'd be fine with a thank you button, too... but some take their motivation from this interaction, so...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
gnossienneslent
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:23 pm
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Postby gnossienneslent » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Kind of hard to have fun with this one.

Let's see, first,

mod opinions don't weigh in any heavier than any of the other members' opinions here...


Perhaps, I should have said admin, but mods have to make decisions people don't like based on the rules. Still, this site has a solid group of people running it.

Not sure what prompted letting the lid off of this entirely rather than in moderation.

If there is concern over excessive threads and server overload then there's some fat that can be cut elsewhere. 200-some pages of Hana Yori Dango and threads for each of the actors in the show at 100+ pages.

I agree with Puppet Princess on the copy/paste thank you. Maybe a hybrid thank you button and comment if you have anything significant to say would be a good middle ground? I would rather see that than:

:cheers: Thanks for the subs!!!!!

or
Thanks! Keep up the good work!!! :salut:

or
:thumleft: Great subs! ^^ :thumright:


Followed by the poster's Yamapi picture and/or gif collection signature that requires a scroll bar to view. Guess this isn't the place to rant about that either, but it's a signature not a slide show...

BadasSubs, For the Hello of it™

Selectively recruiting

©Jane Doe
Subject to terms and availability.


SPQd-a

User avatar
ironicwave
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ironicwave » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:16 am

gnossienneslent wrote:If there is concern over excessive threads and server overload then there's some fat that can be cut elsewhere. 200-some pages of Hana Yori Dango and threads for each of the actors in the show at 100+ pages.

i'm not sure i want to relive the memories of replacing 4 of the biggest actor threads and some of the international community chat threads...
you'd think someone had proposed making baby seal bashings a national pastime... XD

there are all sorts of places that need trimming provided we can weather the nuclear fallout...
i think thank you threads don't need to be abused as "mirror, mirror on the wall, i do make the best subs of all, don't i?" threads either...
but like you said, most jobs here end up being of unpopular choice to somebody...

regarding the thank you button though, i remember pretty distinctly that Ruroshin himself was not in favor of those and even though i like that nice little lineup of nicks at the bottom of the first post i'm not personally gonna die if thank you buttons or a hybrid thereof aren't implemented (i still want my "jump to" option on torrent pages :cry: ) and i'll probably survive even an onslaught of 10 different subtitle threads for one series...
somehow...
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________

User avatar
peacht
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1454
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:46 pm
Location: UK

Postby peacht » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:13 am

Given the range of debate mods had about these revisions I'm really pleased about how this thread is going. So far it seems the major issue has been the subject of single/multiple threads and their management. We did start to discuss this but other aspects took precedence. Whenever changes start to take place new issues arise, such as multiple threads, once we see how things are working we can adapt to best suit the community needs. Hopefully the opinions voiced so far will help us to put in place the best system we can before problems arise, we can then fine tune it.
As for locking threads, there's only a need to lock threads when there's a problem. I'd hope that communicating with mods to have a thread unlocked wouldn't be an issue and the report button is a good way of sending a quick message to all mods.
Batching up all eps of hard subbed series together? lol that could make for a big batch. It does raise the point of batching though which we strongly encourage. I'd love to see the tracker have all completed series batched and only ongoing series as individual torrents.
If you have enjoyed series you found here then please help the community by offering to seed in Series Of The Month

flick.enchained
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:10 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Postby flick.enchained » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:39 am

Being new to the community, I was surprised to read the first set of guidelines which talked about fansub groups 'claiming' and effectively 'locking' individual series, as I'd never seen that when watching subbed anime. So the fact that now this rule has been relaxed but still allows for the best outcome (good quality and quantity of fansubbed series) is a huge godsend, as I really do believe that good competition helps bring up the speed and standard of a fansub.

=== Unrelated mini story you can ignore ===
I am a huge fan of a particular anime that was initially only subbed by one group during it's release. Halfway through the 26 episodes, for whatever reason, that (really good) fangroup stopped producing releases and seemed to go on hiatus. In the end, another anime fansub group took it up and though they were often labelled 'speed-subbers' the quality of their translations were still pretty decent (esp when you compare them with group 1 now too) and I'm 100% certain that their entry into the domain helped bring back the initial enthusiasm of Group 1.
===================================

At the moment, I'm still alittle confused as to how everything is organised.
Back-on Online - Back-on Fansite
http://www.backon-online.com

Sun WuKong Fansubs
http://swkfansubs.wordpress.com

User avatar
mgfcortez
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: brandon mississippi USA

Postby mgfcortez » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:15 pm

even tho Sun WuKong subs just started i would like having our own topic for our hardsubs
and sharing our thank yous and hard subs with another group with there subs in the same post don't sound good at all
sure i don't think there be another group to show up and start subbing Journey to the west 1996
but if they did i'd like to know who's getting the thank yous us or the other group.lol
i don't blame battlegirlai for trying to get her point across at all and being in each others face like she said is a very good point.
at least in your own topic they shouldn't be noone saying(your subs suck i love subymonkeys subs! LOL) but might still get afew crazys.lol

and as for what the topic started off as i don't mind if another sub group started on JTTW the more the better^_^
i just want this show subbed if we stop subbing they can pick it off where we left off as long as Miss Flick don't mind.
anyway be cool
Image

melonyhappy
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:33 am
Location: Canada

Postby melonyhappy » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:25 pm

ah.. that's why i see mulitple releases. as a leecher i'm not going to hide it that i like it.
I did think it was a bit strange coming as an anime fan that not more than 1 group does a series.. but each group has it's own thing to offer (speed vs. quality).

User avatar
mizune
Geinou Fansubber
Geinou Fansubber
Posts: 2191
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: undercover admin

Postby mizune » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:32 am

peacht wrote:Given the range of debate mods had about these revisions I'm really pleased about how this thread is going. So far it seems the major issue has been the subject of single/multiple threads and their management. We did start to discuss this but other aspects took precedence. Whenever changes start to take place new issues arise, such as multiple threads, once we see how things are working we can adapt to best suit the community needs. Hopefully the opinions voiced so far will help us to put in place the best system we can before problems arise, we can then fine tune it.


absolutely in agreement with you...
to be honest, i really haven't done more than skim the past few pages yet, but keep the opinions/suggestions coming everybody!
Read the D-Addicts FAQ before asking questions.

No movies here, so please don't request. Check the Asian Movie Torrent Links.

User avatar
XiaoPauli
Fansubber
Fansubber
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: Texas

Postby XiaoPauli » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:05 pm

Another nod towards a generic thank you button is fine. If someone wishes to express more beyond a generic thank you, I don't see what would prevent them from doing so. If someone isn't as ambitious though, push ze button. Other popular torrent-based forums already implement generic thank you buttons with decent results in preventing threads saturated with thank you's.

jholic
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 4491
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: missin' hawaii

Postby jholic » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:40 am

gnossienneslent wrote:
mod opinions don't weigh in any heavier than any of the other members' opinions here...

Perhaps, I should have said admin, but mods have to make decisions people don't like based on the rules. Still, this site has a solid group of people running it.

Not sure what prompted letting the lid off of this entirely rather than in moderation.

there are several of us (mods/admins) here, and when we discussed it, there were varying points of views. please do not feel timid in voicing an opinion or providing a suggestion.

if you're joining the discussion, please take the time to read the first post.
[spoiler]The modified "competition clause" rationale
This was actually added into the update last year, but I don't think it quite sunk in with everybody... Just what does this mean? It means that different groups can work on the same series even if one group announced their intentions before the other. No more "claiming" for series (on the condition that all subtitled series must be uploaded in sequence, starting from the first episode... Which is in accordance with the other rules already established on this site.)

When we first started, there were very few drama fansubbers around, so in order to maximize the number of translated series that got completed, we maintained the traditional honor system which gave preferential "rights" to the group which first announced their intention to subtitle the series. This was a long time ago, and I think the number of fansub groups in operation now currently makes this practice impractical.

There are some who may feel that competition is the path towards doom and gloom, but I think it's in the best interests of both the fansubbing and viewing community to open the waters. As long as everybody is open-minded and aware of it, competition can:
1. Improve the speed and quality of subtitles offered by competing fansub groups.
2. Reduce the number of stagnant fansub projects that are never completed because the single group which has claimed the series has disappeared.
3. Keep fansubbers interested in their work by truly allowing them to subtitle the series they WANT to (as opposed to barring them from subbing anything because another group has already announced their intention).

If competition shows up, it should not be looked at as a "threat". It should be recognized as an opportunity to improve your art.[/spoiler]Discussion
1. Do others agree with this change to the competition clause? Feedback please...
2. Are all genres (JDrama, KDrama, CDrama variants) ready for the change or only a couple?
3. Anything else you want to discuss (doesn't have to be related to the competition clause change)

i only mention this because it sounds like we're starting to talk about whether we should have 'thank you buttons'. XD

thus far, it's been a good discussion, but there are a few fansub groups that have not voiced an opinion.
Use THUMBS UP/DOWN buttons to KEEP or DELETE posts.
If you see SPAM or ABUSE, use the REPORT button.

User avatar
XiaoPauli
Fansubber
Fansubber
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: Texas

Postby XiaoPauli » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:37 am

Item:
Modified "Competition Clause"

Stance:
Against (for TDramas)

Argument:
Competition is usually only beneficial when the environment is healthy enough to support one. In other words, the environment implies that there is excess number of contributors (e.g., translators, uploaders, timers). When the environment lacks an abundance and/or steadiness of such contributors, competition doesn't seem as advantageous. What may end up happening is that multiple groups will replicate tasks to more popular dramas that could better be allocated to less popular ones. Competition in less favorable environments may also promote the necessary creation of newer fansub groups with lesser experience, at a time when experienced contributors are scarce.

I don't think the ideal environmental state for having competition holds for the TDrama fansub network relative to the other networks. The trend in the TDrama fansub network for a popular drama to be contested by several groups at the expense of lesser-known dramas hasn't been eliminated, and seems to manifest itself as usual. What might be more ideal would be for, say, new fansubbers and such to hone their skills in the more developed fansub groups under the tutelage of experienced contributors. This develops the network further, creates a greater supply of contributors, and introduces a more favorable environment to allow for competition and its desirable benefits.

Proposed Alternative Modification:
* Have some unbiased committee (maybe composed from another network unaffiliated with the TDrama network) somehow fairly give no-bid "contracts" to popular dramas.
* Give fansub groups a set of "credits." When they take a project, subtract their "credits" and gradually renew their credits for each of their releases.
* Encourage fansub group collaboration when there exists multiple bids to a particular drama.
* Have the fansub groups dedicate a portion of willing contributors to a shared pool for contracting-like services.

Comments:
The above proposed alternatives are extreme, but I mentioned them primarily to serve as a catalyst to get some ideas flowing. I don't speak for the fansub group that I'm a part of, and will side with their final stance when the time comes.

User avatar
mgfcortez
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: brandon mississippi USA

re

Postby mgfcortez » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:20 am

XiaoPauli wrote:Item:.


to be honest i didn't get some of what you said.lol
but it seems your saying D-A shouldn't let new fansubbers work on popular dramas and should have to sub something they may not want too.
i think thats crazy,like lets say they said i couldn't sub JTTW and i have ppl who want to sub it with me i would still do it i'd just leave the site.lol
of course Journey to the west may not be popular drama anymore who knows but i'm just saying that because thats the show i want to sub.
for someone else it maybe another show. i ether don't understand what your saying or you crazy to think D_A has the right to tell ppl what they have to sub
(you can't sub that because your new but here you can sub this its trash anyway)
not trying to start anything but IMO what your talking about will just make ppl leave and less shows will get subbed.
i like what there saying let ppl sub what they want even if other ppl are doing it too.
giving points and taking away points to keep the fan subbers from doing what they want don't like it!
Image

User avatar
XiaoPauli
Fansubber
Fansubber
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: Texas

Re: re

Postby XiaoPauli » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:29 am

mgfcortez wrote:but it seems your saying D-A shouldn't let new fansubbers work on popular dramas...

I didn't say or imply that.

quashlo
Fansubber
Fansubber
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: San Francisco

Postby quashlo » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:37 am

Just my two cents:

1. Announcing Intent to Sub Only After Assembling a Team
I think somewhere in these guidelines we should say that a fansub team should only announce their intention to sub something when they actually have a team lined up--in particular, a translator. What I don't like seeing is someone or some team announcing their intention to sub something, placing their name in the Fansub Map, and then never finishing it (or in same cases, never even starting). If they're good, maybe they'll get one or two episodes released, but after that you never hear from them again. By the time it's clear to everyone else (viewers and other teams) that this team is AWOL, the season's already over, so who is going to want to pick it up knowing that
1) few, if any, people are going to watch it as they've probably already moved on to other dramas; and,
2) RAWs could be hard to come by?

At least for myself, if I wanted to sub something but someone had already announced their intention to sub it, I really see no point in putting my name in the hat. Unless I have reason to suspect that I can provide much better subs or a much better experience for the average viewer, I wouldn't double up on it. So while competition breeds quality, there's a limit to the difference in quality that you'll actually see and that your viewers will be interested in... We're talking about subtitles, so unless you have horrible translating skills or poor grammar/vocabulary, the subtitles are going to be good enough for the average viewer, in which case the faster version usually "wins." And for less popular dramas (i.e., not Hana yori Dango, Gokusen, etc.), the potential viewership for subs can only support one version.

What my point boils down to is I don't want to see a drama get "picked up" and then officially "dropped" when there were other teams who would have been able to and more capable to finish it.

2. Limiting Projects to One Drama a Season
I also suggest we encourage teams to limit their subbing efforts to ONE drama a season. Just a couple years ago, it was unthinkable, but now most all the Japanese dramas that get upped here get some kind of subbing and the Fansub Map is pretty much full, at least for renzoku dramas. In the interests of keeping a healthy subbing community with a large diversity of subbing teams and a constant flow of new groups coming online, I would hope that the bigger, more established groups would leave a little room for everyone else. While there's definitely more people watching, most dramas can't support more than one version of subs. Of course, there's no reasonable way of enforcing this, but I think we should at least include a statement in the guidelines encouraging groups to do no more than one series a season.
See my current DramaWiki editing projects here.
See my current and completed subbing projects here.

User avatar
gnossienneslent
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:23 pm
Location: Tokyo
Contact:

Postby gnossienneslent » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:41 am

*sits quietly loading spare clips*
jholic wrote:there are several of us (mods/admins) here, and when we discussed it, there were varying points of views. please do not feel timid in voicing an opinion or providing a suggestion.

Uh, what...?

OH! Timid? [insert laugh track] Yeah, sorry about that, I guess I was out of ammo. Well the truth of the matter is that it was a rare moment when I let my guard down and was thanking the good people who run this board. Completely uncalled for, I know. I suppose you missed that thank you part though, but, um... yeah, I've been watching this thread since about the second post (and unlike that guy, I did take the time to read through the first one very carefully before I posted). Well since I've got permission I guess I can let loose.

Sure I get all the debate and what-iffing going on, valid points for the most part, and mind you I don't have the benefit of having been here since the inception of this board, but what I don't see now is:

mizune wrote:...the number of fansub groups in operation now currently makes this practice impractical.


Agreed there is a copious number of fansubbing groups, there are still few enough active on current dramas that freelance subbers and even major groups can pick up shows and the map still isn't full. (GroinK's points aside... that's another thread before this one opened up.) And so many people belong to more than one group in Jdrama subbing that it's really not as many as it seems. I guess With S2 has a pretty solid corner on the Korean market. While I don't see a bumper crop of high quality subs, I do see a... someone had a very eloquent word for it...
amrayu wrote:that's just going to be one clusterfuck to maintain

Oh, yes! Thank you, dear.... that was it.

I agree if there's a show that 6 groups will have softsubs for there's not much point in creating threads for them here. I think groups tend to have their own sites that can handle posting a thread for those subs and the subbing map can link to their thread. The groups still get all their much desired accolades and D-A doesn't turn into a chaotic mess. There are probably fewer groups that are willing to hardsub, and with higher resolutions available there seems to be a growing demand for softsubs.

mizune wrote:As any veteran fansubber will tell you though:
If you intend to be a fansubber, grow a thick skin.

Wish more people would do this, but the vets seem as prone as anyone to rabid fan attacks.

mizune wrote:Please remember that no single group "owns" the right to subtitle a series exclusively.

Amen. That right belongs to the TV studios. We are playing an honor among thieves game here, and I think that should always be kept in perspective:

mizune wrote:It should be recognized as an opportunity to improve your art.

Oh yes, as I was saying, perspective. I've yet to see a group turn a show into a Shakespearean sonnet. I would love to see that. I do see some people who are very talented in analysis and I've enjoyed reading that, but subs are about function.

Besides, I've yet to hear of someone chaining up a dog to starve to death or cutting sharks in half in the name of honing a skill, so I like to keep anything that called art, in English, at arms length minimum.

BadasSubs, For the Hello of it™

Selectively recruiting

©Jane Doe
Subject to terms and availability.


SPQd-a

battlegirlai
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby battlegirlai » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:10 am

i have to say....

i'm completely against the one show per season idea. when you have a group with 28 translators, one show isn't enough to give everyone something to do. granted...the ideal situation would be to also work on older shows as well as new shows...but if the translators are really motivated to work on these new shows, and they have the time to do it, is it fair to force them to pick an older show instead of what they'd really like to be doing?

if you start handing out the "no, you can't work on this show" or giving them allotted credits to claim new shows....they will probably still end up subbing these new shows, but just not releasing them here on d-a, and still not picking an older series instead...so d-a loses out on a group that could potentially be releasing really good subs at a good pace that might sustain itself thru the entire series, as opposed to a show that gets "claimed" by a group that either loses translators halfway thru or finds their priorities shifted elsewhere.

some fansub groups are not run like a business. there can be perfectly legit reasons why releases slow down or stop completely. while obviously a group should no start subbing a show if they are not sure they can finish it, a group shouldn't be punished because life intruded upon their hobby.

User avatar
abcd99
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 am
Contact:

Postby abcd99 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:22 am

Agree with battlegirlai. Once your fansub group is large enough, you can handle much more dramas. Not only that, multiple dramas per season can rid boredom too.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest