Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

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venomqo
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Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

Postby venomqo » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:10 am

So i was thinking about this recently and i wanted to hear other fansubbers and also the communities opinions if possible. So subbing takes a fair amount of time, especially when doing it alone, you can average it to like 1 minute per line, each episode has around 700 lines on average, some go more then that, so that's around 12 hours per episode. If this were a job, and one could dedicate all their time to it, you could likely do an episode per day, or more realistically an episode every 2 days.

Now fansubbers are providing a service that the creators don't provide, and in many cases are doing said service better than the professionals, i've seen many anime on crunchyroll etc. where it looks like all they did was basically have a timed srt and sub it to english, sometimes the subtitle is abit weird, or doesn't sound natural in english. They also don't style the subtitles, which is what ALL the fansubber groups used to do back in the hay-day of anime fansubbing. When i see such poor sub's i think to myself with abit of effort i could likely do a better job.

Now this is where money comes in, realistically, dedicating large portions of time to something like this, for free, with no bright light at the end of the tunnel, isn't practical. I also hate all those linkbucks links and advertising **** that people use as it's kind of rude to the end consumer. so this is where a service like patreon becomes relevant, now on a popular show, you could probably get 2000+ downloads per episode, what if a number of those 2000~ downloaders had abit of change in their pockets, anywhere from 1-5 bucks(To put it into perspective, people spend more on coffee every day), and would be willing to donate that monthly to the fansubber? If 500 people donated 5 bucks a month, that would be 2.5 grand, which is a decent monthly wage, not amazing... probably equivalent to working in retail. So with no financial worries, a subber could dedicate their time to subbing say, 2 airing show's a week, and with enough money bring in even more people(as in pay them to help aswell) to style, QC, help and overrall speed up the process allowing them to sub more shows etc. etc.

I would like to know what people think about something like this?
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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby MielCanela » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:31 am

As far as I know, most anime fansub groups that ask for donations don't use patreon. They also mostly use the donations to pay for their sites and raws.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with subbers linking to patreon for donations directly from d-addicts because it could possibly bring unwanted attention to d-addicts in the form of DMCAs and such.

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby Keiko1981 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:56 am

MielCanela wrote:As far as I know, most anime fansub groups that ask for donations don't use patreon. They also mostly use the donations to pay for their sites and raws.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with subbers linking to patreon for donations directly from d-addicts because it could possibly bring unwanted attention to d-addicts in the form of DMCAs and such.

To everyone,

Several moderators have talked about this earlier. None of us are too fond of possibly seeing D-Addicts being used as a platform to advertise payment of fansubbing.

If this were to happen, how would it make D-Addicts look? Not good.
That's why we'd like to ask you to please refrain from doing it.
What you do on your own site is up to you.
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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby DragonSpikeXIII » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:07 pm

Earning money for fan work on material they don't hold the license to is a definite no-no according to the TPP agreement.

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby venomqo » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:14 pm

i don't care too much about the TPP agreement, what i'm talking about is making this viable for people to do. what subbers do isn't perverting or transforming their content in any way, we ultimately just create a translation. If i was creating Hard-subs, and uploading the videos somewhere, and putting it behind a pay-wall for example, then sure, that would be quite shady. But ultimately we provide a service that the content creators themselves don't provide.

also i don't intend to link patreon here, it was just a thought i had, and wanted to hear others' opinions about it. We all want to get payed to do something we love right?
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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby RetroHelix » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:50 pm

I'm paying Chrunchyroll just to support a service that makes Jdoramas available in Germany and I barely use it (I still hope for a time in which I can legally watch any drama I like with subs). So, yes I would pay fansubbers if they make subs for dramas I like. But I don't like the idea of using Patreon. If fansubber want to get money for their work they could set a donation limit that must be reached to get going.

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby venomqo » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:07 am

^ The problem with that is its putting the subs behind a pay-wall which i don't agree with. what issues do you have with patreon? im curious to know. It's basically the same as twitch where if you subscribe you commit to 5 bucks a month, 50% of which the channel actually gets. also crunchyroll don't really sub drama, its all old ****, they don't rly have anything new.
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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations.

Postby RetroHelix » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:08 pm

venomqo wrote:^ The problem with that is its putting the subs behind a pay-wall which i don't agree with.
:blink What's wrong with paying for doramas to support the rightholder? Maybe more companies will release their shows worldwide if they see that it is lucrative.
venomqo wrote:What issues do you have with patreon? im curious to know. It's basically the same as twitch where if you subscribe you commit to 5 bucks a month, 50% of which the channel actually gets.

As far as I know fansubs in any form are more or less illegal. By using Patreon you show the whole world that you are earning money with illegally subbing doramas. I just don't want to bring more attention to the fansubbing scene in this way. And it would really put the scene in a bad light. Besides that the Patron can't be sure to get something for his money. Another point that speaks for the official way.
venomqo wrote:also crunchyroll don't really sub drama, its all old ****, they don't rly have anything new.

If you like old doramas or only the new ones, that's a matter of opinion. I really like older doramas (most doramas on Crunchyroll are not that old). I can barely remember any drama after ~2005 that I liked. Most modern shows are not for me.

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

Postby areea-chan » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:43 am

I have many thoughts about this. Okay, let's see if I can sort them out.

First, ideally, yes, I would love for fansubbers to get some kind of compensation for their work because pretty much all of us have full-time jobs and/or school. Making fansubs take a lot of time and while it can be fun and rewarding and we like doing it, it would just be nice to get a bit of compensation for it to help things out a bit. I have thought about starting a Patreon before.

I also despise, loathe, and otherwise hate streaming websites that steal fansubbers' works and upload them without permission. They often take the subbers' names off the videos, too, making people think that it's the website that's doing the work. I've also seen shops that blatantly make DVD's to sell from subbers' work. Like what the hell, man?

Second, starting a Patreon, as RetroHelix said, is a bad idea. If you do this, you are going to have a bad time. Because, as was said earlier, fansubbing is technically and not-so technically illegal. We are all breaking the law in some way.

Now, this depends entirely on your location. If you live in a country that doesn't recognize Japanese/Chinese/Korean copyright laws, then you should be okay. But I think most of us are in countries that do recognize those laws, and therefore we are doing something illegal. The translations themselves are not illegal. It's the videos...which we need for translations. Basically, it's super complicated but long story short, we are breaking the law in some way.

However, we kind of get around it by not making profits from it. So if a fansubber were to open a Patreon, even though it's donation-based, you could argue that the fansubber is profiting from the works of other people. People who own the original copyrights. People who have lots of money and can sue you with large lawsuits.

The only way I can see where subbers could potentially make money is if someone created a legal streaming website for dramas (licensed legally and everything) and then hired those subbers to sub the dramas. Or took existing subs and paid the sub group for them. Kind of like a mixture of DramaFever, Crunchyroll, and Viki. This is something I'm actually trying to start up, and it seems like quite a few people would be interested. Especially if we offered older dramas (which we would).

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

Postby venomqo » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:00 am

yea, it is a rather grey/interesting area. because we do put alot of time and effort into these subs, i've actually talked with a friend, on several occasions, for 20+ minutes about a single line, about like the nuances of it, and thinking of the best way to put it into english, and this happens quite often. I mean it makes sense to me, but putting it into an easily understandable english sentence is sometimes quite frustrating.

At the end fo the day, we aren't doing this for ourselves. I mean i'm new anyway, but this is what i think. I remember back when i didn't speak Japanese(even atm i'm still pretty dodge) and being abit frustrated when subs didn't come out, or just plain weren't available. Then i slowly started learning, and realizing that ALOT of subs are just plain wrong and i felt insulted, which is why i put so much thought into each and every line(bar a few errors here and there :P). I really do care about my interpretation, even though i'm slow.
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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

Postby RetroHelix » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:56 pm

areea-chan wrote:The only way I can see where subbers could potentially make money is if someone created a legal streaming website for dramas (licensed legally and everything) and then hired those subbers to sub the dramas. Or took existing subs and paid the sub group for them. Kind of like a mixture of DramaFever, Crunchyroll, and Viki. This is something I'm actually trying to start up, and it seems like quite a few people would be interested. Especially if we offered older dramas (which we would).

Please keep me/us updated about this project of yours. Any details yet?

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

Postby mieko » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:04 pm

I'll speak as a japanese translator (professional) who worked in that capacity on and off for 10 years. Back in the mid-late 90's i would do translation work for varied fansub groups in my spare time for like $50 an episode.. not because i was living off it but because i would enjoy the material and making some chip n' beer money was just a bonus. And these groups either would pay cause they did monitize their releases in some form or for their own wants and release free of charge.. (this is years before video files back in the days vhs distribution). But there where several factors that never escaped anybody's minds.. One. "It's all illegal.. No if's and or buts" Two. One cannot make a living off this. Three. If you look at what is effectively a illegal hobby as a career then you need to re-think things.

So. If you have the slightest thought of trying to make a living by trying to get people to donate for you to make fansubs then you need to really find a job. Cause if you were a true and competent translator then you'd be able to make a living as a translator.. Pure and simple.

Also.. Unfortunately "legal" outfits like Crunchyroll are manned by nothing but fansub translators who are paid a pittance for the work...and of course it shows with crappy translations.

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Re: Fan-subbing and Patreon/donations

Postby areea-chan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:28 am

RetroHelix wrote:Please keep me/us updated about this project of yours. Any details yet?


No confirmed details yet. I need to find people who can help me build the website and figure out how to go about licensing shows. Plus, you need money to back this up. I've considered starting a Kickstarter for it, but until I have a better plan for it, I don't want to just throw it out there.


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