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| Should a site similiar to D-Addicts be created for Japanese Movies? |
| Yes |
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[ 131 ] |
| No |
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| Total Votes : 154 |
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krys Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Total posts: 135 Gender: Unknown |
 Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:28 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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My point being, you may create such a site but as much useful it would be, it would never be as rich in stuff as kloofy's, not even a bit.
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reverendJoined: 15 Mar 2004 Total posts: 56 Location: London Age: 36 Gender: Male |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:31 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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groink i'm not sure that is a fair argument. If you want to go and read books in Barnes & Noble, you are within your rights to do that surely. The same protocol seems to apply if you go to a CD store and listen to a bunch of albums at a listening post. You 'absorb' the information, but you are not obliged to buy....the problem arises when you obtain a copy of that book/album/movie illegally and without paying.
I think 'fair use' should address your rights over how you use something you have already paid for, but it can't apply to something you downloaded without paying for, at least if the rights holder chooses to enforce their rights over the 'product'. I guess that's the chance we are all taking.
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vibiusJoined: 14 Feb 2004 Total posts: 433 Location: Directly over the center of the Earth! Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| BT-Slut wrote: | | I think you're confusing copyright with trademark Vibius. |
That's ... unpossible!
| Quote: | | There's no registration process for copyrights. |
I'm sorry, but you are wrong about that. In the US, you can indeed register a copyright:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
(see Why should I register my work if copyright protection is automatic?)
It is true as you say:
| Quote: | | When I take a photo, it's copyrighted to me. when I write an essay, it's copyrighted to me. I don't have to registered with anyone to get copyright for my creations. |
But the registration process still exists and has a purpose (per above FAQ).
| Quote: | | But for individual end users who just download to view or to listen and with no thought of profit whatsoever, I think it should totally fall under fair use. (Yes Vibius, I realized it does NOT fall under fair use currently. I think it should in the future.) |
Well, I sympathize with your sentiment. US copyright laws have evolved over the years to support the tyrrany of corporations (originally the were only to protect the original author). However, I don't think it is a good idea to allow the kind of copying you suggest ... maybe at a certain reduced bitrate or something so there is still some incentive to buy the original at a quality bitrate ... but I dunno if that'll ever happen.
I would urge everyone here to learn a little more about copyright by reading the relevant FAQs and US code. It would help dispell some of the misconceptions that pop up now and then.
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alvyLocation: Tokyo! Yay! Gender: Male |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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Hello everybody,
First, I am new to this forum and I would just like to take the opportunity to send a note of appreciation to everybody involved in running it. You have given me a chance to see many wonderful stories that I would never have even known about without you. Through them, I believe I have also learnt something about Japanese culture (which is my main area of interest). My life is richer for it, so thank you very much.
Secondly, this has been a very interesting and enlightening thread. There are many sides to this file sharing activity that we are all involved in, and many of them have been covered here.
Clearly, we are all thieves, in the sense of the law. TV series and movies are not free, just because they are freely available. There are authors and actors and directors and producers etc. that should be paid for their work. As I am sure many of you do, I have to live with a certain amount of guilt because of it.
Not a very large amount though. Somehow, when it comes to file sharing, there is a wide gap between what is definitely wrong in a legal sense, and what feels wrong morally. I don't feel like a thief when I download jdrama, even though perhaps I should.
Also, there are several positive sides that, while they do not put money in the pockets of the copyright holders, are valuable in their own right. Through downloaded drama and movies there are lots of people like us who have become interested in Japan, South Korea, China etc.
I find myself eating sushi a lot more, cooking dim sum and treating my friends to glutinous rice balls that I can find in a small Asian food store around the corner. I have started reading Japanese authors. There was recently a Hong Kong FIlm Festival here in Stockholm which I of course attended. I am trying to learn Japanese, and I am definitely going to go to Japan as soon as I can scrape together some money.
Maybe the Japanese/Chinese/Korean Ministeries of Culture should actually sponsor distribution of material that hasn't found a commercial base overseas yet? They have lots to gain from it. 
The companies involved may have too. Eventually, there might be enough interest in, let's say, Japanese film and culture that we will be able to get a jdrama series on Swedish television. There's never been one that I know of, so far. It is happening right now with manga, which is finally beginning to grow here. Popular manga are now being licensed in Sweden, which enriches their creators. Would it have happened without the subculture that fed on downloaded pirate manga? Maybe, but it would have taken even longer.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. I tend to ramble on sometimes. The J-addict site sounded like a great idea at first, but I don't want to get anyone into legal trouble. A low profile is probably the best choice. As long as we remain a tiny fringe group watching TV series the appeal of which it would be difficult to explain to most of our friends, we might not merit the attention of the producers and distributors. Let's enjoy it while it lasts. 
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vibiusJoined: 14 Feb 2004 Total posts: 433 Location: Directly over the center of the Earth! Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| alvy wrote: | | Clearly, we are all thieves, in the sense of the law. |
Well, thievery comes under criminal law, while copyright infringement is (usually) civil law, so there is a technical difference. The RIAA in particular has tried to demonize copyright infringement by conflating it with stealing (and calling it piracy). I think they are a little too full of themselves on that point. They want to believe that every download is a lost sale, but there is significant evidence to the contrary.
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BT-SlutJoined: 08 Apr 2004 Total posts: 1130 Location: China Age: 24 Gender: Female |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| groink wrote: | It's like hanging around the magazine rack... You pick up a magazine, then you browse through it. Whether or not you like the content of the magazine, you DID in fact gather information from that source. There's no way a human being can dump the information from their head. You should in fact pay the publisher for absorbing that information. This is why many bookstores do not like people browsing through magazines (they have signs posted), though personally I don't see them enforcing this rule..
--- groink |
You must have limited access to big book stores in the USA. The two largest bookstore chains in the USA--Barnes & Noble and Borders--specifically go out of their way to invite you to stay and linger for hours to browse and read. In my younger days, I worked for Barnes and Noble. It was the explicit policy of B&N to try to incite the customer to stay for as long as possible. There are numerous placement of comfy sofas and chairs spread throughout any B&N. B&N knows through their emperical data collection that allowing people to "test and browse" freely will ultimately bring in more sales than to restrict access to magazines and books. While it certainly is true that some people may use this to their advantage--by going in only to browse and not buy--the vast majority of people offer more money to B&N because of it.
When I purchase books, I always go to B&N because they make the environment so friendly and welcoming.
You may think some of what others say is "bullshit", but I get the same "bullshit" impression from much of what you say as well.
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BT-SlutJoined: 08 Apr 2004 Total posts: 1130 Location: China Age: 24 Gender: Female |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:34 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| vibius wrote: | [But the registration process still exists and has a purpose (per above FAQ).
I would urge everyone here to learn a little more about copyright by reading the relevant FAQs and US code. It would help dispell some of the misconceptions that pop up now and then. |
Good post. I knew about a registration process but I remembered it wasn't mandatory. But it's good you pointed out the FAQ. It's interesting to know when it is required to register.
Also, I want to pass along these following sites for everyone to read. It's extremely insightful and enlightening. Know the law and know your rights to defend against any "DMCA takedown" letters.
| Quote: | http://chillingeffects.org/
A joint project of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, University of San Francisco, and University of Maine law school clinics. |
| Quote: | http://www.eff.org/
Who We Are
Based in San Francisco, EFF is a donor-supported membership organization working to protect our fundamental rights regardless of technology; to educate the press, policymakers and the general public about civil liberties issues related to technology; and to act as a defender of those liberties. Among our various activities, EFF opposes misguided legislation, initiates and defends court cases preserving individuals' rights, launches global public campaigns, introduces leading edge proposals and papers, hosts frequent educational events, engages the press regularly, and publishes a comprehensive archive of digital civil liberties information at one of the most linked-to websites in the world: http://www.eff.org. |
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delsxyzLocation: Ad Agency Gender: Male |
| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:56 pm Post subject: Circle (c) and copyrighted Post Rating: 0 |
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FACT
You pay US$ 30.00 if my memory is correct and submit
your work to the copyright office/Library of Congress. There is a waiting periiod for examination, but virtually you'll receive a copyright.
Then, officially you can print (c) --read it as Circle C.
Your handwriting on memo pad, your picture, you can say
you have a copyright. That's what broadterm of copyright is
all about. However, you cannot put (c) on your work unless you
get copyright from the above $30.00 process.
---My guess is ...
If JP Productions had paid $ 30.00 for one drama, it owns copyright
on the show . The only way for Fuji to fight is to bring a law suit
against JP Productions. Not worthwhile I guess for many dramas.
I think that's why Fuji decided not to air subtitled shows in the USA.
Bad business practice to demand more money for subtitles,
and JP Productions also was a buyer to Fuji for Kiku programmings.
I buy more...offer us better deal.
I own the copyright of the drama. I should get more cut from Kiku.
And I run Kiku.
No wonder Kiku said goodbye to JP Productions.
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vibiusJoined: 14 Feb 2004 Total posts: 433 Location: Directly over the center of the Earth! Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Circle (c) and copyrighted Post Rating: 0 |
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| delsxyz wrote: | | However, you cannot put (c) on your work unless you get copyright from the above $30.00 process. |
Could you provide a citation for this last sentence? I believe it is not true. In the US, since 1978, a work is copyrighted as soon as it is fixed in a tangible form. The copyright notice is actually optional since 1978, although one copyright FAQ I read indicates that if it is present, you may be able to get higher damages in the case of infringement. There is no fee for adding a copyright notice AFAIK, the $30 is solely for registration with the copyright office:
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-register.html
| Quote: | | No wonder Kiku said goodbye to JP Productions. |
It's an interesting story. I'd like to read more about it if you know of a source or link, thanks.
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delsxyzLocation: Ad Agency Gender: Male |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: Fuji's current answer Post Rating: 0 |
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http://www.fujisankei.com
Why doesn't FCI broadcast more Japanese programming with English subtitles?
FCI acquires the right to air entertainment TV programs in Japanese only.
================================================
番組・編成について
番組で英語字幕の表示はないのですか？
現時点で、FCI , フジテレビ、および各権利団体との契約によりニュース以外の番組に英文字幕をつけることはできません。
According to my Japanese friend, Japanese Answer is slightly
different from English answer.
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jholicJoined: 03 Feb 2004 Total posts: 6278 Location: missin' hawaii Gender: Male |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:02 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| krys wrote: | | No. Those are subtitles ripped from dvds. |
if all of those subs were ripped from dvd's, then why are there 4-8 different versions of subs for the same movie?? four to eight different dvd's? i don't think so.
| Quote: | | No. Your friends must rip subtitles from dvds as well. Anime softsubtitles made by fans are scarce. |
you are incorrect. there are about four of them (fluent in jp/eng), and they actually sit in front of computers/video players and hard code them into vhs or cd. i watch quite a bit of anime, but i rarely particpate in their forums or anything. but my friends have mentioned that there are quite a few subbers on the mainland. i don't believe it is 'scarce.'
furthermore, i want to point out that the nature of FANsubbing is that fans actually sub the eps. most of the anime that are fansubbed have not come out on dvd's (otherwise, they would be licensed, and most fansubbers will not sub licensed anime). therefore, the subs could not have been ripped from dvd's.
| Quote: | No. Drama softsubtitles made by fans are scarce as well.
My point being, you may create such a site but as much useful it would be, it would never be as rich in stuff as kloofy's, not even a bit. |
since you have no stats, and neither do i, we are at an impasse.
however, if a site like kloofy's did not exist, i think most people would believe that fansubbing of asian movies were scarce as well. i don't think that the site would need to be as "rich in stuff" as kloofy's. just to offer an area to encourage fansubbing for dramas.
krys, thanks for your insightful reply.
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jholicJoined: 03 Feb 2004 Total posts: 6278 Location: missin' hawaii Gender: Male |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:30 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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wow!! what a discussion!!  i think several of you should think about becoming law students. i am way out of my league when it comes to copyrights, trademarks, etc. i don't dare delve into that.
but, i think one point was a bit misconstrued.
it is true that borders, b&n, and many other places allow people to listen to entire songs, watch videos, read books, etc, because of their studies that perusal may lead to sales.
HOWEVER, that is not quite the same as we are doing here. (i am guilty as charged.) we are dling, trading, perusing, whatever you want to call it, entire copies of the material. in many instances, the copies are nearly indistinguishable from the original.
i don't believe MPAA/RIAA and other folks would be as mif'd if we were to post 15min previews of these movies, 40sec soundclips of the ost's, etc. (heck, they might even send us better copies!) but, we have posted the movie/drama, etc in its entirety - from start to finish.
the other thing to note is that this material does not expire. if there was a way to send you the entire shaolin soccer movie on a cd that would magically disintegrate in three days, perhaps the lawyers might be a little more forgiving. but nothing assures them that i am going to delete the file. check out the thread, "BACKING UP," and you'll see that the majority are saving it.
would borders appreciate me going into their store w/ my laptop and scanner, and start scanning in their magazines in their comfortable couch? how about bringing in my high-end capture card and recording their cd's from their convenient listening stations? hey, i'm sorry, but i peruse much better on my vga screen. i promise i'll delete it when i leave.
now, i don't want to piss anyone off, but i thought that was something pretty important that was missed. although an argument may be made that perusal leads to sales, we are not quite "perusing" these files.
i await the coming flame...
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adJoined: 10 Mar 2004 Total posts: 89 Location: LA Gender: Male |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:08 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| groink wrote: | This is what REALLY bugging me...
I've heard a couple of people mention that they believe in the "trial before purchase" theory. Right off the bat, I think that's total bullsh*t!!!!
It's like hanging around the magazine rack... You pick up a magazine, then you browse through it. Whether or not you like the content of the magazine, you DID in fact gather information from that source. There's no way a human being can dump the information from their head. You should in fact pay the publisher for absorbing that information. This is why many bookstores do not like people browsing through magazines (they have signs posted), though personally I don't see them enforcing this rule.
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"trial before purchase" is not a right, it's a good business practice. HOwever, i want to draw everybody's attention to this post because it highlights a change in the concept of media that occured in the end of the last century.
Take books for example, until 400 years ago books were hand-writteng, therefore expensive and rare. The medium itself more than the content, determined the value of a book. Making copies was hard and the concept of copyrright didn't exist. Nowadays it's the other way around but the treatment of the IP products by most people still remains the same. Most people still want to think that if the own medium they can do with it all they want. For example, most people don't think it's wrong to install the same copy of Windows on all computers at home. They bought the CD, they own it and can to with it all they want.
However, a new class of people who make money selling copies (called IP rights holders) want to sell everybody as much stuff as possible. So they started to educate people that owning a medium doesn't mean having a right to use in any way you want. If you own a CD with Windows 2000 you can't sell it. You can't instal on two computers. If you own a music CD you can't make a copy of it to listen in the car.
Groink is a good example of a perosn who bought this idea, for him a magazine is not a stack of glossy toilet paper it's INFORMATION. And of course, once opened it contaminated your with that information you got pay up.
I for one still consifer books, magazines, music CDs as comodities. When i buy them i think that i buy a few pieces of paper or plastic but not a _right_ to read or listen that cr*p.
And i have a feeling that majority people think the same way, do they?
No??? Ahhh 
| groink wrote: |
These people keep digging for more stupid and idiotic things to support their cause.
--- groink |
Others think people should buy books and magazines sealed in black tape without looking at them and "keep digging for more stupid and idiotic things to support their cause."
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PhilsterTJoined: 26 Mar 2004 Total posts: 370 Location: Seattle, WA Gender: Male |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:40 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| Quote: | | You pick up a magazine, then you browse through it. Whether or not you like the content of the magazine, you DID in fact gather information from that source |
I really respect your opinion but I have to say 2 things why I disagree.
1) I am a proud buyer of Japanese music (my collection grows about 2-3 CDs per month) and I started out by previewing some songs online. Hypothetically, let's see what would have happened if I didn't listen to those couple of songs...well, not much would have happened. Now, I'm a huge buyer of Japanese music, always on the ball. I LOVE the original copies of DVDs and CDs much more than rips, so when I plan to move to Japan, I also plan on buying Beautiful Life, GTO, and Good Luck as starters. I beleive this argument is very valid and definitley holds water. I always buy the original (or will buy) if I like the content, if I don't like the content, I delete it off my computer, therefore, either I will have the original or I won't have it on my computer.
2) The reason I find your quote invalid is because your comment is just you trying to bring up an argument that holds no water. You say that you open a magazine and see information, so therefore you must pay for it. If you don't notice, you learn a lot more in everyday life (including TV) which you don't have to nescisscairly have to pay for. For example, you could probably get that same information from a TV, internet, friends/ gossip, et cetera. Should you pay your friends everytime they gossip? People flip through magazines to see if the articles look intresting, they don't stand there to read it, and if they do, they need to buy it because they will be doing what I do in [reason 1]. Are you refering to someone reading part or whole of a magazine? If whole, then I agree with you that they should buy it. But this only works with childrens books and magazines because most novels tend to be multiple chapters which would lead to multiple trips to the book store  .
*Oh BTW, I could care less about the J-movies, I guess it would be an itnresting but I can just go down to the rental store and rent them. I guess it would be intresting and helpful, but no pressure from me. Groink, thanks for D-addicts, that's more than enough for me now.*
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adJoined: 10 Mar 2004 Total posts: 89 Location: LA Gender: Male |
| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:52 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| jholic wrote: | wow!! what a discussion!! i think several of you should think about becoming law students. i am way out of my league when it comes to copyrights, trademarks, etc. i don't dare delve into that.
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Yeah, too many lawyers on the board,  talking about lawyer's stuff. Knowing all this cr*p is useless unless you are a lawyer and plan to make money ripping people off.
The truth is litigation is extremely expesive in this country, even if you are right. That's why nobody fights RIAA. It is cheaper to pay $3,000. Knowing that you right not always will save you.
Personally i have jsut a pure academic interest in exploring the evolution of the concepts of intellectual property.
| jholic wrote: |
would borders appreciate me going into their store w/ my laptop and scanner, and start scanning in their magazines in their comfortable couch? how about bringing in my high-end capture card and recording their cd's from their convenient listening stations? hey, i'm sorry, but i peruse much better on my vga screen. i promise i'll delete it when i leave.
now, i don't want to piss anyone off, but i thought that was something pretty important that was missed. although an argument may be made that perusal leads to sales, we are not quite "perusing" these files.
i await the coming flame... |
There won't be no flame. What's your point, dude? Be more specific. Borders, surely, won't appreciate your going into the store with a scanner. They will be very unhappy.
Some of us can't marry Matsu Takako and that makes us very unhappy, so what? Bill Gate won't be happy until everybody on the planet will be running windows, and linux kids wont be happy till Billy is dead. Everybody can't be happy.
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