Proposed Uploading Rule for Fansubs

Last edited by Ruroshin on Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:39 am; edited 5 times in total

The how to be a good fansubber guidelines so far is good and can be used to promote cooperation among the fansubbers and to prevent conflicts arising from working off other people's work.

However, I think there has been one issue that has been assumed specificly of this site but hasn't really been all that clear so I will propose a clear written rule so that we don't have this confusion anymore.

The assumption I think some people have is there can only be 1 fansub version allowed on this site. This is mostly regarding hardsub but some of it can apply to softsub too.

I propose that it is ok to upload multiple fansub version of a series to this site as long as the following constraints are met:

The fansub is entirely your own work or your group's work and you did not use someone else's fansub work unless you have their permission. This applies to both hardsub and softsub as well as all aspect of fansubing including timing and translations (that means don't edit someone else's translation and pass it off as your own.)
You MUST start at the beginning and not upload from where another group is currently at. Exception to this point is if the existing project has been dropped and confirmed by the individual or group working on it and they have agreed for you to continue from where they left off.
You do not bash or otherwise bad mouth another individual or group(s) work. Don't do it because you think you can do a better job but do it because you love the series and really want to share that experience with others.

I've been trying to create an environment where fansubbers and potential new fansubbers would like to work in. If you've noticed I've tried to be pretty open and have tried to make it as easy as possible for people to share. Anybody can upload, there is no special rank that you need to upload. There are no ratio to punish people or pressure them. Anybody who works on one aspect of fansubbing of even a single episode gets a fansubber banner to acknowledge and appreciate their efforts. The above proposed rule is meant to be in the same spirit of sharing. If you really like a series enough to put in the effort to create original fansubs then by all mean share it.

Please post your opinion here on whether or not you think this rule should be implemented, any changes you'd like to see, any additions or removal of points. Thanks.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:20 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Ruroshin-san,
Thank you!! I, for one, agreed with all of your point. Although rarely I put my opinion on this forum (mainly to avoid conflict with anybody), this time I must say that the guideline you put up here is very reasonable for all fansubbers and should be implemented.
I'm hoping that with these proposed guidelines all the mess that happened recently can be minimized.

Thank you again!

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:36 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

I also think it's a good idea, I can understand that there might not be a need for more than one version of a tv series, but like I've said before I don't see anything wrong with there being more than one version.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:38 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

excellent!

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

excellent rulee ruroshin... salut

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:37 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Ruro's had a busy day, it seems. I'm liking that little sidebar on the homepage...

I've been pretty vocal on this particular subject lately, so I guess I should chime in on the thread devoted to it...

I'm not 100% against the idea of having multiple groups putting out different versions of the same show, but I am very... let's say very wary of change to that particular guideline. It hasn't been a factor in any of the projects that I've worked on to this point (and no, that wasn't why I stopped working on MSIL19, before anyone asks), but I know that I'd be every bit as ticked off as the groups it's happened to if someone came along and started posting up eps of Lawyers or Terms Of Endearment after all the work that's been put into getting them going. If that sounds greedy or territorial, oh well. It's how I feel about it.

I truly believe that with the exception of a very few dramas that everyone seems to want to work on, we'll end up seeing more conflict and less production if this is implemented. There are already guidelines mentioned about uploading HQ versions when the existing ones have lower video quality, etc. and I believe that having a timeframe for eps, etc. would go a ways towards keeping things rolling steadily without having subbers feeling pressured to get that next ep out before whoever, blah blah. Also the inevitable increase in the requests/demands from downloaders anxious for that next ep.
Add to that, we will probably end up seeing a few less series get subbed that would have been if there weren't 2 or 3 groups doing the same one. (and yes, I know that if group X can't do series X, they might not do anything at all. There's a balance there somewhere.)

I think that a good solution would be to more fully utilize the fansubbers thread and have some more clearly defined rules about announcing that you're doing this series or that where it's plainly visible so that situations like some of the recent ones don't recur.

And lastly, I don't know of too many occasions where a group refused to allow someone to work with their group on a project if the person showed enough interest that they were willing to the thing themselves anyway. I think communication between subbers an groups would foster a more cooperative and constructive atmosphere than tossing that guideline altogether.

All that said, there were some positively BRUTAL comments in a few of those threads. Not very nice...

I should note that these are my personal opinions and I haven't spoken with any of the other members of either of the groups I'm with about how they feel.

I look forward to hearing other subber's views on this one.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:47 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

All that typing, and with the exception of this past week, I wonder how often it will actually come up...

I guess a big part of why I tend to jump in on some of these issues is the fact that several talented subbers have dropped off in the middle of things over frustration from this or that. A lot of it came from some very unappreciative and rude leechers, true, but I just wonder if this would be the first step in having more and more rude and demanding downloaders who think that they're owed something. (and I think just about everyone around here knows how I feel about that...)

Obviously, I'm not in charge and can't make any decisions one way or another so whatever goes, goes.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Well think of it this way. The point is to get as many dramas subbed as possible. I'm sure 99% of the people enjoy watching a series more than subbing a series. Watching a series is like entertainment but someone else does the work for you. Subbing the series is like entertainment but only after tons and tons of work. So instead of fighting over whether you should make separate subs for a series that's already been/in the process of being subbed, why not use those hours to watch another series. Unless the quality of the original is really really bad then there's really no need to redo the whole thing. Softsubs may not be as fancy as some of the hardsubbs, but it conveys the drama's message/actors acting/etc/etc equally as well. Afterall, are we more concerned about the actual drama or how fancy the effects are? Effects are good, but no use fighting to do them.

Of course all of the above is not possible if subbers do everything to "feed their ego" as groink or whoever said before (in some other thread). I mean, watching a series does not do anything to up one's ego, but subbing does.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:51 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:12 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

The guidelines are well presented. I have not really seen any problems with the various groups doing fansubbing work. A lot of people who think that they could contribute something contributed in their own eays. This spirit of them should be commended. Anyway..>aJa AjA FiGHTing Big Smile

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

In my opinion, popular dramas that are live action versions of animes are going to be done by many groups because of its power in both the drama and the anime community. The group that fansubs the next greatest live action under the sun may not have the slightest clue about d-addicts. It could be very possible. And maybe someone decided they could do a better job than some other group did on a non-anime related drama. The inspiration causes them to release the series over again.. so does it fall under the same category? I think it can't really be stopped, its more of a matter of whether or not the torrent is also linked to on this particular community. When it comes down to it, it really is a particular person's decision about which version of a sub they are going to download. Keeping seeds 'pure' or whatever its called isn't always the priority of a leecher.

I understand why people complain about more than one version, even tho I may not agree with it. I know the anime community has been accused of being 'ruthlessly competitive' so to speak, and that's the opposite of what is wanted here. I actually don't think the anime community is anything like that, since I've been a part of that leeching scene longer than I have the drama leeching scene. Sometimes having more than one group is encouraging. Each group feeds off of each other and betters their efforts because of the competition. Keyword: SOMETIMES, not all the time. I guess all I am trying to say is that I think multiple groups is OK, it has been working without major life-threatening problems for quite some time on the lovely internet.

For me I had assumed it was acceptable in the drama world because it was acceptable in the anime world. But I guess the anime world is bigger than the drama world, and rules can't really be dictated. In a smaller community there is tighter control. Again, I think its merely a matter of whether or not the torrent/clubbox/whatever downloading program one uses is actually linked to on this forum.

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Well, my opinion is a little different because since I've been studying Japanese for a long time, I can watch normal variety shows and drama without subtitles. However, if there's some kind of specialized vocabulary involved (like a medical drama, lawyer drama, or a mystery show) I will prefer to watch with subtitles since I probably won't get enough on my own to get the most out of the show. And if there's already subtitles available, it makes watching a little easier.

So I would represent that percentage of drama fans who can follow raws, or follow drama with an English baseline for subs. (for examples, I could watch Antique cake house even though the subtitles were Engrish - I just need an English baseline sometimes to understand it all and extrapolate what they're really saying). However, I think compared to people who DON'T fall into that category, people like me might be a small percentage. Although I have no idea, since I can't conduct a census or something around here. Laugh

Anyway, my point is, I want to see a lot of drama. But if more than one group works on the same drama, that's taking away time they could be working on a new drama I haven't seen. Sometimes it's not even about waiting for subtitles for it - sometimes they release drama that haven't been released before, so it's new to me.

Of course there's something to be said about one group producing better quality subs, or a better translation than others. I won't name names of course, but I downloaded some soft subs in the past month from here with tons of grammatical, spelling, and translation errors, plus they did not use any punctuation.

So I would propose another rule to fansubbing that you must edit your subs to run grammar and spellcheck before posting them, and that there must be proper punctuation. It would be much harder to check accuracy of translation. But I definitely think there should be some guidelines to what can be posted in the subtitle thread. It's one thing to not use punctuation or spell things wrong in daily life, but on subtitles it's just... Crazy

I'm not going to say there have never been any spelling or grammatical errors in my subtitles, but what I'm saying is that if there are errors in like, every other line, that's a bit ridiculous. I understand there might be an error here or there in a normal fansub, and that's okay. Every now and then I see an error in a published book, so shi# happens.

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:14 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Not a lot of opinions on this matter so far or is everybody away on the weekend? Or maybe everybody agrees?

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

I agree that subbing the same series is kind of repetitive and some efforts are wasted. But we really can't stop people from subbing a series if they really wanted to.
I just hope that if this rule is implemented, that we don't have a sudden flood of 1000 versions of the same drama that'll clutter up the D-A tracker.

Competition is good in some ways, but there's drawbacks... such as speed over quality. I've already seen a bunch of quality issues as awrittensin has mentioned. Fansubbing does not equal Babelfish translations!

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0

Yeah, it does seem pretty quiet around here lately. Either no one's been around, they agree, or they don't and don't want to come off as territorial or unagreeable. I'm probably in the minority on this one, but oh well. Been there before...

As far as the rules go, frankly, what you propose is the way it's always been, as far as I've ever been able to understand it. It's simply always been considered to be proper to contact and at least discuss the issue somewhat if another group's already been producing subs or subbed versions of a particular show, and just about all the groups and individual subbers have followed it up to this point.

I think it's important to remember that there were two pretty major and unusual events that happened recently to bring all this to a head: First, Kioku released their version of episode 2 of "1 Liter" when ep 1 had already been uploaded by PBFansubs. It wasn't done out of disrespect for anyone's work, but it happened that way and they go hammered for it. I believe that everything's been worked out there, but I don't know. Right on the heels of that happening, Hana Yori Dango was released, and at least 3 or 4 groups were doing that one simultaneously. I wonder if there would have been as much protest if everyone wasn't already a bit on edge? Who knows.

The point I'm trying to make is that 2 very unusual events happened here, and it's kind of thrown everyone a bit. The first happened because wasn't aware of the thing about posting order and was eager to display their work. The second was because an unusually popular manga was released as a drama, and multiple groups started working on it pretty much as soon as it was aired, and several versions popped up pretty quick with no one really being aware of what the other group was doing, apparently. Those in themselves didn't really break any of the guidelines, but I believe that most people were a bit taken aback because that type of thing just hasn't really happened here much.

Me, I wouldn't work on a series that someone else is already doing for a few reasons. First, I know how I would feel if someone started on a project that I already started, and it's not a very nice feeling. Second, I'm thinking "why bother?" Quite frankly, I enjoy subbing and contributing quite a bit, but like awrittensin mentioned earlier, I'm perfectly capable of following all but the worst Babelfish subs just fine. Hell, sometimes it's almost more enjoyable when they're really bad for comic relief, if nothing else.If someone's doing it, I just find another series to work on. They're cranking them out faster than all of us together could get done anyway, so it's not like we'll run out of projects to play with anytime soon.

Up to now, I think that there's been pretty good communication between the various groups floating around, and I'd like to see that continue. Maybe most people think like I do, in that we'd rather watch the things rather than spend hours going over them if they're being done anyway by someone else. In that case, then a rule forbidding multiples would be largely unneccesary, but I would like to see that the "unwritten rules" as far as consideration and respect with regards to these things be maintained.

The timeframe thing I mentioned was with regards to something mizune had asked me about earlier. It had more to do with how to deal with "orphaned" series that have been left undone for long periods of time with no updates from the subbing group before another team could continue that work where it left off. Only in extreme cases, like where a subber or group has stated that they won't be continuing a project, or if a month or two (or whatever), goes by and there's been no contact with the folks involved. That part was more to do with continuing a project rather than starting from ep 1 as is the norm. Kind of like with SARS finishing up Taiyou No Kisetsu. Not something that would be used very often at all. The other one had to do with groups waiting for a dvd release of a series vs. groups subbing as the eps are shown. That one I think is pretty much a non-issue right now anyway.

Damn, another book.... Oh well. Maybe I'm still annoyed that there have been SO many folks piling in over the last few days with the "where's ep 2 subtitles?", " How long will it be?" "Looking forward to seeing a new ep every Saturday from X group", etc. I really hope that it's a temporary thing over all the Yori excitement... Wish there was some way of forcing people to read the FAQ's, etc. and familiarizing themselves with the site a bit before posting the same thing all over the place.