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linusl Joined: 18 May 2008 Total posts: 24 Location: Sweden Gender: Male |
 Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: my softsub for zettai kareshi episode 5 - about new subbers Post Rating: -1 |
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I made a softsub for zk5 yesterday, but apparently that makes me a rulebreaker and the file has been removed as can be seen at http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_61517.htm
I understand that this website has rules, but they seem very unwelcoming to new subbers. I would think that the community would welcome more fansubbers and nurture them as best as possible.
A new fansubber might not be ready to join a group, or might not want to. And if you are new at something, it's a good thing to be able to get feedback. It's also a good thing to be able to show off some work to maybe get picked up by a group if you don't know where to turn. (I did find the recruitment board, but it could be a good thing to have a place where groups can find subbers too as opposed to subbers finding groups.)
I know that these are just the rules of this website, and if I wanted to I could sub what ever I want, and just put it on another site, but since you already have an established community where I can reach as many people as possible, this seems like the best choice.
Ultimatly the fansubs are made for the people that watch the shows, and of course they always want the subs as soon as possible when a show is still airing. I see no harm in someone subbing the occational episode and releasing it as soon as possible after the raw is available. Once the show has ended not many people will bother with the occational subbed episode anyway, but rather download an entire pack of subbed episodes done properly, or turn to a group that has subbed all episodes to get a translation that doesn't use different words or names from episode to episode. The people doing the proper subbing (and to avoid the same misundestanding that happened in my other thread: I mean proper as a good thing, subbing everything well from the beginning to end) will be the releases that are going to be downloaded most in the end, but when you follow a show that's currently airing you might want the fastest sub, even if it might not be the best.
Even though someone hinted at that I might do in my other thread, I harbor no ill will towards the groups that do subs, and that is not why I chose to sub an episode in the middle of a show.
I understand that bigger groups, in this case sars (whose subs I've watched before and will again. I chose their subs when watching the first few episodes of zk) probably has set schedules on when to release an episode, and sars in this case does more work with the reencoding and karaoke style endings and coloured subtitles. Their schedule for zk seems to be about a week, I judge that only from what I remember from their last release (zk4).
As far as I understand the rules for this site now, you are not allowed to sub anything if it's not from the beginning, or if softsubs and hardsubs have already been released. This makes it very restricting since even if you want to start from the beginning, new shows are usually already picked up. So if you want to sub something new, you'd have to start in the middle, from the latest episode, but you can't do that either. What you're left with are shows that no one else has subbed, but there might be a reason for that (not good shows etc), that would turn you away from them as well.
I am new here, and this is not the best welcome I could get as a subber. If someone know of a community that has different views, or a place where they nurture new subbers in a different way, please let me know. Please note that I'm not asking for a "better" community, because I don't want to offend anyone, and I also haven't yet decided wether I think this community is good or bad, so I'm not saying this community is bad either.
Up until now, I have only used this site for it's torrents, and I think it is a great resource for that. I only registred yesterday in order to take part in the rest of the community and to be able to upload my sub.
Even though I'm new here, what I'd like to suggest is more lenient rules, and maybe a sandbox forum or something, where you can sub and upload what you want.
If someone doesn't agree with me or think my ideas are ludicrous, you can be assured that I probably won't sub anything else in the near future due to lack of time, but I really wanted to have a go, and think it's sad that the community would just shoot down people like me in this way. I will probably sub something in the future because I quite enjoyed working on the zk episode, it was just really time-consuming.
If I stay with this community I might start seeing things your way (I interperet your ways from the rules set up), and change my mind, but this is what I think right now as a newcomer.
This was, as I wrote in the thread I started, my very first sub, I did zettai kareshi because I was watching the raw for ep5 and thought to myself that "hey, i understand most of this, it shouldn't be that hard to sub, why not have a go". It wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, and I have a newfound appreciation for subbers. The timing was a pain in the ***, although the program I used probably wasn't the best. The translation is hard without the original japanese script to work from and it can be really hard to make out what the characters are saying sometimes. Even when you do have the script there are a lot of times where you have to think hard to find the best translation or compromise.
The people watching shows that are currently airing wants subs as soon as possible. If someone wants to provide them with that, why stop them?
edit: I got carried away when writing this and didn't do my research. I see now that the recruitment board kind of works both ways, but that wasn't my main point anyway.
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HanjaeJoined: 22 Nov 2005 Total posts: 141 Location: Australia Age: 19 Gender: Female |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| linusl wrote: | | As far as I understand the rules for this site now, you are not allowed to sub anything if it's not from the beginning, or if softsubs and hardsubs have already been released. |
This rule doesn't exist. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you're not allowed to pick up a show that's already been claimed by an existing fansubber/fansubbing team. Here, subbing groups prefer to spread out and sub dramas that are unclaimed instead of having 4-5 teams/solo subbers doing the same thing (based on the idea that it's a waste of time fighting over the same project since there are many other dramas worth subbing), but this is a preference, not a rule. If you wanted to release softsubs for Zettai Kareshi, all you had to do is this:
Zettai Kareshi (Linusl) [Eng Subs] (Ep 1)
to differentiate it from Tonydesu's softsubs. It's not that difficult.
The reason why the first rule (i.e. you must start from Episode 1 if you want to sub something) exists is to prevent subbers/subbing teams from starting in the middle of the series (once the popularity of a drama has been established) and provide often LQ speed releases to compete with an existing team that has taken the time and effort to provide quality subs from the beginning. If you don't understand what I mean, just see how many anime subbing teams operate. There's always the option of proposing a collab, or joining the group temporarily, if you just want to help out with a couple of episodes.
Hopefully you'll understand that the rules are there to prevent major wankfests from exploding between groups, NOT to discourage new subbers.
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linuslJoined: 18 May 2008 Total posts: 24 Location: Sweden Gender: Male |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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[quote="Hanjae"]...to [i]compete[/i] with an existing team that has taken the time and effort to provide quality subs from the beginning.[/quote]
Of course, it's a good that everyone doesn't sub the same thing, because that would be like reinventing the wheel over and over again. But to see it as a competition is what I think is wrong. If it were a competition I'd understand that you wouldn't want someone to steal the thunder of an established group. I however, don't see it as a competition, I see it from the viewpoint of the people that watch the shows, and that's what it should all be about. At least I think so. If someone wants to get a quick fix by watching a lq sub that someone made cause they were bored, why not let them do that, and let the people that want quality subs wait for the proper ones?
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ironicwaveJoined: 22 Mar 2004 Total posts: 887 Location: Germany Gender: Female |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| linusl wrote: | | The people watching shows that are currently airing wants subs as soon as possible. If someone wants to provide them with that, why stop them? |
in theory, there wouldn't be a problem with that, but you have to look at what's practical, too...
if you start allowing single ep subs, you can very easily get stuck with the following:
- x amount of single ep (just wanted to try this out) sub threads
which would be a nightmare for anyone trying to find a full set of subs and a nightmare for mods to police
- several series with random eps subbed, but not complete
i'm sure that'll go over real well with people who don't understand half of what goes on and causes a lot more frustration than an extra day's wait
- several series with some understandable, some completely gibberish subs
piecing together your subs from x amount of subbers does wonders for consistency
and sure, these are worst case scenarios, but those have to be considered and weighed against the benefit if you're going to completely change rules...
| linusl wrote: | | I made a softsub for zk5 yesterday, but apparently that makes me a rulebreaker... |
apparently, eh? you already knew you were breaking rules when you posted your subs:
| linusl wrote: | | I'm sorry if I'm breaking any rules now, but I got an urge to sub something and this is my first time. |
joining a community, being aware there are rules and then doing what you want anyway doesn't necessarily make you the kind of member any community would welcome with open arms, don't you think?
this is like any place else, you're new, you try to fit in and you earn the right to change the status quo... not show up, tell everyone you don't like the way things are done around here and expect everyone else to fall at your feet and do it your way... 
p.s. moving to fansubbing  _________________ 
___________________SARS-Fansubs______________________________________________________ |
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HanjaeJoined: 22 Nov 2005 Total posts: 141 Location: Australia Age: 19 Gender: Female |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| "Not seeing it as a competition" is an idealist's point of view, I'm afraid; allowing people to jump in and post subs ahead of existing groups is just asking for trouble. Even if you don't do it with that reason in mind, take into account how the existing teams feel. Everyone here is doing this for fun out of their own spare time; it becomes extremely discouraging when you've got people releasing speed subs ahead of you, particularly since most of the community can't even tell what's quality and what isn't. They'll just watch whatever's handed to them, and handed to them first. If you're the existing subber and you've got people releasing just one ahead of you, I think you'll know how that feels.
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outcast_withinJoined: 13 Aug 2007 Total posts: 18 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| linusl wrote: | | Hanjae wrote: | | ...to compete with an existing team that has taken the time and effort to provide quality subs from the beginning. |
Of course, it's a good that everyone doesn't sub the same thing, because that would be like reinventing the wheel over and over again. But to see it as a competition is what I think is wrong. If it were a competition I'd understand that you wouldn't want someone to steal the thunder of an established group. I however, don't see it as a competition, I see it from the viewpoint of the people that watch the shows, and that's what it should all be about. At least I think so. If someone wants to get a quick fix by watching a lq sub that someone made cause they were bored, why not let them do that, and let the people that want quality subs wait for the proper ones? |
Totally agrees
I for one am happy that someone took an effort to sub and share zk5 and i don't see why he souldn't be allowed to do it without his thread being locked
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gryzzeJoined: 16 Apr 2005 Total posts: 1607 Location: Sweden Gender: Male |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| outcast_within wrote: | | I for one am happy that someone took an effort to sub and share zk5 and i don't see why he souldn't be allowed to do it without his thread being locked |
Of course, from a selfish point of view there's no problem with it.
Imagine if you had subbed a number of episodes and then someone jumps in and release the next one. Some people wouldn't care, while some people would feel like dropping the project.
Let's say we allowed that 5th episode being posted. Then what if they dropped the project and linusl didn't feel like posting anymore episodes? Would you still be happy?
Basic rule: treat people like you want to be treated yourself._________________ Japan-TV Fansubs http://jtv-drama.net/
Currently recruiting japanese & mandarin translators, timers,
sfx/karaoke, dedicated servers and wiki maintainer. |
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outcast_withinJoined: 13 Aug 2007 Total posts: 18 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| gryzze wrote: | | outcast_within wrote: | | I for one am happy that someone took an effort to sub and share zk5 and i don't see why he souldn't be allowed to do it without his thread being locked |
Of course, from a selfish point of view there's no problem with it.
Imagine if you had subbed a number of episodes and then someone jumps in and release the next one. Some people wouldn't care, while some people would feel like dropping the project.
Let's say we allowed that 5th episode being posted. Then what if they dropped the project and linusl didn't feel like posting anymore episodes? Would you still be happy?
Basic rule: treat people like you want to be treated yourself. |
Isn't that a little bit patronizing.
You won't allow the viewers to choose what they want. You will choose for them?
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gryzzeJoined: 16 Apr 2005 Total posts: 1607 Location: Sweden Gender: Male |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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We want to create a good environment here for viewers AND fansubbers. That's what the rules are about. Only caring for needs of the viewers won't make anyone happy in the long run._________________ Japan-TV Fansubs http://jtv-drama.net/
Currently recruiting japanese & mandarin translators, timers,
sfx/karaoke, dedicated servers and wiki maintainer. |
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AlpedraJoined: 09 Aug 2006 Total posts: 45 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| Hanjae wrote: |
The reason why the first rule (i.e. you must start from Episode 1 if you want to sub something) exists is to prevent subbers/subbing teams from starting in the middle of the series (once the popularity of a drama has been established) and provide often LQ speed releases to compete with an existing team that has taken the time and effort to provide quality subs from the beginning. If you don't understand what I mean, just see how many anime subbing teams operate. There's always the option of proposing a collab, or joining the group temporarily, if you just want to help out with a couple of episodes.
Hopefully you'll understand that the rules are there to prevent major wankfests from exploding between groups, NOT to discourage new subbers. |
Interesting and valid points.. but thereīs always the other side of the question. There are quite a few dramas which have been subbed in a very very slow pace and, sometimes, with not the best quality. Fortunately I can rely on my japanese skills (although far from perfect), so I donīt have to depend that much on subbers (but some people do) to understand whatīs going on, while watching j-dramas Anyway, even if someone would want to sub a drama from a later episode, he/she wouldnīt be able to do it because the ones who are subbing are the only ones who have the right to do it (almost like property, which does seem ironic). Even if they take 3 years. Even if the quality is poor.This kind of "property feel" is also the perfect way that lead for some "ego trips" too.. of course, absolute liberty would also lead to some chaos and those "wankfests".
I know subbing is not a job, subbers are not paid for it, they are just doing a service to the community, and so on.. but in the end, the current rules DO discourage new subbers and might be not the best rules for everybody (not only the subbers, but also the watchers). And why would someone have to join a group if he wants to sub a couple of episodes or pick on drama already subbing? And Iīm sure that quite a few times (not always of course) he/she would get a "no" for an answer.. Of course thereīs also the option of subbing for he/herself, or just post on another site, but besides practicing language skills, isnīt the purpose of fan-subbing to share the subs with the biggest amount of people possibile? And d-addicts is the biggest asian drama community after all
Donīt get me wrong, I do respect A LOT the amount of time subbers dedicate to their hobby and what they do. But I have the right to disagree on some (not all and actually only a few) of the rules concerning it. Maybe itīs just me as I donīt know about any crazyness concerning anime fansubs (I really donīt care about anime at all).
Last edited by Alpedra on Mon May 19, 2008 10:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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linuslJoined: 18 May 2008 Total posts: 24 Location: Sweden Gender: Male |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| ironicwave wrote: |
if you start allowing single ep subs, you can very easily get stuck with the following:
- x amount of single ep (just wanted to try this out) sub threads
which would be a nightmare for anyone trying to find a full set of subs and a nightmare for mods to police
- several series with random eps subbed, but not complete
i'm sure that'll go over real well with people who don't understand half of what goes on and causes a lot more frustration than an extra day's wait
- several series with some understandable, some completely gibberish subs
piecing together your subs from x amount of subbers does wonders for consistency
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That's why I suggested a sandbox forum where you could sub and upload whatever you want, and then let the threads get buried. And you would have a seperate forum for complete subs.
I too think that consistency is important, that's why I refer to "proper" subs, that has this. I doubt anyone would put together at pack with random subs.
And as for several series with random episodes subbed, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. If it's a show that's picked up by a group, the random episodes would get buried in the sandbox once proper subs are released. If the shows not picked up, isn't a few subbed episodes better than none? If nothing else, someone might hesitate to do an entire show, but might be willing to pick up the slack and just sub the episodes that aren't subbed.
[/quote] | ironicwave wrote: |
| linusl wrote: | | I made a softsub for zk5 yesterday, but apparently that makes me a rulebreaker... |
apparently, eh? you already knew you were breaking rules when you posted your subs:
| linusl wrote: | | I'm sorry if I'm breaking any rules now, but I got an urge to sub something and this is my first time. |
joining a community, being aware there are rules and then doing what you want anyway doesn't necessarily make you the kind of member any community would welcome with open arms, don't you think?
this is like any place else, you're new, you try to fit in and you earn the right to change the status quo... not show up, tell everyone you don't like the way things are done around here and expect everyone else to fall at your feet and do it your way... :-)
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Yes I am new, and no, I did not know for sure if I was breaking any of your rules when posting my sub, thus the disclaimer. I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong.
| ironicwave wrote: |
p.s. moving to fansubbing :D |
Thank you, I tried to find a fitting board, but didn't find one for complaints and suggestions, so general was my best bet.
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Ojou_BelleJoined: 15 May 2008 Total posts: 9 Gender: Unknown |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| I,for one, would not like it if someone started subbing episodes without starting from the first one. If you feel like doing a project, start from the first episode to avoid confusion and abandoned projects. If everybody just wanted to sub a particular episode, not all series or dramas might be completed and we would all get stuck with bits and pieces of dramas.
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HanjaeJoined: 22 Nov 2005 Total posts: 141 Location: Australia Age: 19 Gender: Female |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| Alpedra wrote: |
Anyway, even if someone would want to sub a drama from a later episode, he/she wouldnīt be able to do it because the ones who are subbing are the only ones who have the right to do it (almost like property, which does seem ironic). Even if they take 3 years. Even if the quality is porr.This kind of "property feel" is also the perfect way that lead for some "ego trips" too.. of course, absolute liberty would also lead to some chaos and those "wankfests".
I know subbing is not a job, subbers are not paid for it, they are just doing a service to the community, and so on.. but in the end, the current rules DO discourage new subbers and might be not the best rules for everybody (not only the subbers, but also the watchers). And why would someone have to join a group if he wants to sub a couple of episodes or pick on drama already subbing? And Iīm sure that quite a few times (not always of course) he/she would get a "no" for an answer.. Of course thereīs also the option of subbing for he/herself, or just post on another site, but besides practicing language skills, isnīt the purpose of fan-subbing to share the subs with the biggest amount of people possibile? And d-addicts is the biggest asian drama community after all |
I think you've misunderstood, subbers ARE allowed to pick up dramas that are already claimed by existing groups :3 Some teams (and their faithful followers) do tend to get a little nasty because they seem to see a project as their property, but it's really not worth the attention. In any case, the general idea is that there's nothing stopping solo subbers or other teams from subbing, say, Zettai Kareshi, even though SARS is doing hardsubs and so on. You just have to start from episode 1, for reasons explained above.
No one HAS to join a group to sub a few episodes; I'm just listing it as an option. If you want to translate one episode, but can't be bothered to do the rest, why not see whether you can offer your services temporarily to a group? Joining a group really isn't as difficult and restrictive a process as you might think; many groups accept temporary recruits that help out with a particular project.
As Ojou_Belle mentioned, in the worst case scenario you might have 5 or 6 threads just for one drama, with one subber going from the start, subber #2 just releasing episode 5, subber #3 dropping after the first three episodes, and so on.
Last edited by Hanjae on Mon May 19, 2008 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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ironicwaveJoined: 22 Mar 2004 Total posts: 887 Location: Germany Gender: Female |
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linuslJoined: 18 May 2008 Total posts: 24 Location: Sweden Gender: Male |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0 |
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| Ojou_Belle wrote: | | I,for one, would not like it if someone started subbing episodes without starting from the first one. If you feel like doing a project, start from the first episode to avoid confusion and abandoned projects. If everybody just wanted to sub a particular episode, not all series or dramas might be completed and we would all get stuck with bits and pieces of dramas. |
If I decided to sub an entire show, I would never start from the middle, I would start from the beginning. What I did wasn't a project (well it was in a way for me because of the time it took), I wanted to try out subbing, and if I had picked the first episode of zettai kareshi, an episode that's been subbed by two groups from a show that has aired for several weeks, no one would probably watch my sub, and I wouldn't get any feedback if I did a good job or not. It's as a picked up showed is "owned" by the group subbing it, as someone else in this thread suggested.
And again, I am suggesting a sandbox forum where you can sub and upload anything, and the subs would get buried there once proper once are released. It could also be beneficial for the groups doing proper subs to find completed subs that they can use or incorporate (after contacting the author), to be able to release faster.
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