Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0
gnossienneslent wrote:
If there is concern over excessive threads and server overload then there's some fat that can be cut elsewhere. 200-some pages of Hana Yori Dango and threads for each of the actors in the show at 100+ pages.
i'm not sure i want to relive the memories of replacing 4 of the biggest actor threads and some of the international community chat threads...
you'd think someone had proposed making baby seal bashings a national pastime...
there are all sorts of places that need trimming provided we can weather the nuclear fallout...
i think thank you threads don't need to be abused as "mirror, mirror on the wall, i do make the best subs of all, don't i?" threads either...
but like you said, most jobs here end up being of unpopular choice to somebody...
regarding the thank you button though, i remember pretty distinctly that Ruroshin himself was not in favor of those and even though i like that nice little lineup of nicks at the bottom of the first post i'm not personally gonna die if thank you buttons or a hybrid thereof aren't implemented (i still want my "jump to" option on torrent pages ) and i'll probably survive even an onslaught of 10 different subtitle threads for one series...
somehow...
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
Given the range of debate mods had about these revisions I'm really pleased about how this thread is going. So far it seems the major issue has been the subject of single/multiple threads and their management. We did start to discuss this but other aspects took precedence. Whenever changes start to take place new issues arise, such as multiple threads, once we see how things are working we can adapt to best suit the community needs. Hopefully the opinions voiced so far will help us to put in place the best system we can before problems arise, we can then fine tune it.
As for locking threads, there's only a need to lock threads when there's a problem. I'd hope that communicating with mods to have a thread unlocked wouldn't be an issue and the report button is a good way of sending a quick message to all mods.
Batching up all eps of hard subbed series together? lol that could make for a big batch. It does raise the point of batching though which we strongly encourage. I'd love to see the tracker have all completed series batched and only ongoing series as individual torrents.
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Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
Being new to the community, I was surprised to read the first set of guidelines which talked about fansub groups 'claiming' and effectively 'locking' individual series, as I'd never seen that when watching subbed anime. So the fact that now this rule has been relaxed but still allows for the best outcome (good quality and quantity of fansubbed series) is a huge godsend, as I really do believe that good competition helps bring up the speed and standard of a fansub.
=== Unrelated mini story you can ignore ===
I am a huge fan of a particular anime that was initially only subbed by one group during it's release. Halfway through the 26 episodes, for whatever reason, that (really good) fangroup stopped producing releases and seemed to go on hiatus. In the end, another anime fansub group took it up and though they were often labelled 'speed-subbers' the quality of their translations were still pretty decent (esp when you compare them with group 1 now too) and I'm 100% certain that their entry into the domain helped bring back the initial enthusiasm of Group 1.
===================================
At the moment, I'm still alittle confused as to how everything is organised.
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0
even tho Sun WuKong subs just started i would like having our own topic for our hardsubs
and sharing our thank yous and hard subs with another group with there subs in the same post don't sound good at all
sure i don't think there be another group to show up and start subbing Journey to the west 1996
but if they did i'd like to know who's getting the thank yous us or the other group.lol
i don't blame battlegirlai for trying to get her point across at all and being in each others face like she said is a very good point.
at least in your own topic they shouldn't be noone saying(your subs suck i love subymonkeys subs! LOL) but might still get afew crazys.lol
and as for what the topic started off as i don't mind if another sub group started on JTTW the more the better^_^
i just want this show subbed if we stop subbing they can pick it off where we left off as long as Miss Flick don't mind.
anyway be cool
Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0
ah.. that's why i see mulitple releases. as a leecher i'm not going to hide it that i like it.
I did think it was a bit strange coming as an anime fan that not more than 1 group does a series.. but each group has it's own thing to offer (speed vs. quality).
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
peacht wrote:
Given the range of debate mods had about these revisions I'm really pleased about how this thread is going. So far it seems the major issue has been the subject of single/multiple threads and their management. We did start to discuss this but other aspects took precedence. Whenever changes start to take place new issues arise, such as multiple threads, once we see how things are working we can adapt to best suit the community needs. Hopefully the opinions voiced so far will help us to put in place the best system we can before problems arise, we can then fine tune it.
absolutely in agreement with you...
to be honest, i really haven't done more than skim the past few pages yet, but keep the opinions/suggestions coming everybody!
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0
Another nod towards a generic thank you button is fine. If someone wishes to express more beyond a generic thank you, I don't see what would prevent them from doing so. If someone isn't as ambitious though, push ze button. Other popular torrent-based forums already implement generic thank you buttons with decent results in preventing threads saturated with thank you's.
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: Post Rating: 0
gnossienneslent wrote:
Quote:
mod opinions don't weigh in any heavier than any of the other members' opinions here...
Perhaps, I should have said admin, but mods have to make decisions people don't like based on the rules. Still, this site has a solid group of people running it.
Not sure what prompted letting the lid off of this entirely rather than in moderation.
there are several of us (mods/admins) here, and when we discussed it, there were varying points of views. please do not feel timid in voicing an opinion or providing a suggestion.
if you're joining the discussion, please take the time to read the first post.
Quote:
Hidden:
The modified "competition clause" rationale
This was actually added into the update last year, but I don't think it quite sunk in with everybody... Just what does this mean? It means that different groups can work on the same series even if one group announced their intentions before the other. No more "claiming" for series (on the condition that all subtitled series must be uploaded in sequence, starting from the first episode... Which is in accordance with the other rules already established on this site.)
When we first started, there were very few drama fansubbers around, so in order to maximize the number of translated series that got completed, we maintained the traditional honor system which gave preferential "rights" to the group which first announced their intention to subtitle the series. This was a long time ago, and I think the number of fansub groups in operation now currently makes this practice impractical.
There are some who may feel that competition is the path towards doom and gloom, but I think it's in the best interests of both the fansubbing and viewing community to open the waters. As long as everybody is open-minded and aware of it, competition can:
1. Improve the speed and quality of subtitles offered by competing fansub groups.
2. Reduce the number of stagnant fansub projects that are never completed because the single group which has claimed the series has disappeared.
3. Keep fansubbers interested in their work by truly allowing them to subtitle the series they WANT to (as opposed to barring them from subbing anything because another group has already announced their intention).
If competition shows up, it should not be looked at as a "threat". It should be recognized as an opportunity to improve your art.
Discussion
1. Do others agree with this change to the competition clause? Feedback please...
2. Are all genres (JDrama, KDrama, CDrama variants) ready for the change or only a couple?
3. Anything else you want to discuss (doesn't have to be related to the competition clause change)
i only mention this because it sounds like we're starting to talk about whether we should have 'thank you buttons'.
thus far, it's been a good discussion, but there are a few fansub groups that have not voiced an opinion.
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Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:37 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
Item:
Modified "Competition Clause"
Stance:
Against (for TDramas)
Argument:
Competition is usually only beneficial when the environment is healthy enough to support one. In other words, the environment implies that there is excess number of contributors (e.g., translators, uploaders, timers). When the environment lacks an abundance and/or steadiness of such contributors, competition doesn't seem as advantageous. What may end up happening is that multiple groups will replicate tasks to more popular dramas that could better be allocated to less popular ones. Competition in less favorable environments may also promote the necessary creation of newer fansub groups with lesser experience, at a time when experienced contributors are scarce.
I don't think the ideal environmental state for having competition holds for the TDrama fansub network relative to the other networks. The trend in the TDrama fansub network for a popular drama to be contested by several groups at the expense of lesser-known dramas hasn't been eliminated, and seems to manifest itself as usual. What might be more ideal would be for, say, new fansubbers and such to hone their skills in the more developed fansub groups under the tutelage of experienced contributors. This develops the network further, creates a greater supply of contributors, and introduces a more favorable environment to allow for competition and its desirable benefits.
Proposed Alternative Modification:
* Have some unbiased committee (maybe composed from another network unaffiliated with the TDrama network) somehow fairly give no-bid "contracts" to popular dramas.
* Give fansub groups a set of "credits." When they take a project, subtract their "credits" and gradually renew their credits for each of their releases.
* Encourage fansub group collaboration when there exists multiple bids to a particular drama.
* Have the fansub groups dedicate a portion of willing contributors to a shared pool for contracting-like services.
Comments:
The above proposed alternatives are extreme, but I mentioned them primarily to serve as a catalyst to get some ideas flowing. I don't speak for the fansub group that I'm a part of, and will side with their final stance when the time comes.
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: re Post Rating: -1
XiaoPauli wrote:
Item:.
to be honest i didn't get some of what you said.lol
but it seems your saying D-A shouldn't let new fansubbers work on popular dramas and should have to sub something they may not want too.
i think thats crazy,like lets say they said i couldn't sub JTTW and i have ppl who want to sub it with me i would still do it i'd just leave the site.lol
of course Journey to the west may not be popular drama anymore who knows but i'm just saying that because thats the show i want to sub.
for someone else it maybe another show. i ether don't understand what your saying or you crazy to think D_A has the right to tell ppl what they have to sub
(you can't sub that because your new but here you can sub this its trash anyway)
not trying to start anything but IMO what your talking about will just make ppl leave and less shows will get subbed.
i like what there saying let ppl sub what they want even if other ppl are doing it too.
giving points and taking away points to keep the fan subbers from doing what they want don't like it!
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:37 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
Just my two cents:
1. Announcing Intent to Sub Only After Assembling a Team
I think somewhere in these guidelines we should say that a fansub team should only announce their intention to sub something when they actually have a team lined up--in particular, a translator. What I don't like seeing is someone or some team announcing their intention to sub something, placing their name in the Fansub Map, and then never finishing it (or in same cases, never even starting). If they're good, maybe they'll get one or two episodes released, but after that you never hear from them again. By the time it's clear to everyone else (viewers and other teams) that this team is AWOL, the season's already over, so who is going to want to pick it up knowing that
1) few, if any, people are going to watch it as they've probably already moved on to other dramas; and,
2) RAWs could be hard to come by?
At least for myself, if I wanted to sub something but someone had already announced their intention to sub it, I really see no point in putting my name in the hat. Unless I have reason to suspect that I can provide much better subs or a much better experience for the average viewer, I wouldn't double up on it. So while competition breeds quality, there's a limit to the difference in quality that you'll actually see and that your viewers will be interested in... We're talking about subtitles, so unless you have horrible translating skills or poor grammar/vocabulary, the subtitles are going to be good enough for the average viewer, in which case the faster version usually "wins." And for less popular dramas (i.e., not Hana yori Dango, Gokusen, etc.), the potential viewership for subs can only support one version.
What my point boils down to is I don't want to see a drama get "picked up" and then officially "dropped" when there were other teams who would have been able to and more capable to finish it.
2. Limiting Projects to One Drama a Season
I also suggest we encourage teams to limit their subbing efforts to ONE drama a season. Just a couple years ago, it was unthinkable, but now most all the Japanese dramas that get upped here get some kind of subbing and the Fansub Map is pretty much full, at least for renzoku dramas. In the interests of keeping a healthy subbing community with a large diversity of subbing teams and a constant flow of new groups coming online, I would hope that the bigger, more established groups would leave a little room for everyone else. While there's definitely more people watching, most dramas can't support more than one version of subs. Of course, there's no reasonable way of enforcing this, but I think we should at least include a statement in the guidelines encouraging groups to do no more than one series a season.
_________________ See my current DramaWiki editing projects here.
See my current and completed subbing projects here.
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:41 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
*sits quietly loading spare clips*
jholic wrote:
there are several of us (mods/admins) here, and when we discussed it, there were varying points of views. please do not feel timid in voicing an opinion or providing a suggestion.
Uh, what...?
OH! Timid? [insert laugh track] Yeah, sorry about that, I guess I was out of ammo. Well the truth of the matter is that it was a rare moment when I let my guard down and was thanking the good people who run this board. Completely uncalled for, I know. I suppose you missed that thank you part though, but, um... yeah, I've been watching this thread since about the second post (and unlike that guy, I did take the time to read through the first one very carefully before I posted). Well since I've got permission I guess I can let loose.
Sure I get all the debate and what-iffing going on, valid points for the most part, and mind you I don't have the benefit of having been here since the inception of this board, but what I don't see now is:
mizune wrote:
...the number of fansub groups in operation now currently makes this practice impractical.
Agreed there is a copious number of fansubbing groups, there are still few enough active on current dramas that freelance subbers and even major groups can pick up shows and the map still isn't full. (GroinK's points aside... that's another thread before this one opened up.) And so many people belong to more than one group in Jdrama subbing that it's really not as many as it seems. I guess With S2 has a pretty solid corner on the Korean market. While I don't see a bumper crop of high quality subs, I do see a... someone had a very eloquent word for it...
amrayu wrote:
that's just going to be one clusterfuck to maintain
Oh, yes! Thank you, dear.... that was it.
I agree if there's a show that 6 groups will have softsubs for there's not much point in creating threads for them here. I think groups tend to have their own sites that can handle posting a thread for those subs and the subbing map can link to their thread. The groups still get all their much desired accolades and D-A doesn't turn into a chaotic mess. There are probably fewer groups that are willing to hardsub, and with higher resolutions available there seems to be a growing demand for softsubs.
mizune wrote:
As any veteran fansubber will tell you though:
If you intend to be a fansubber, grow a thick skin.
Wish more people would do this, but the vets seem as prone as anyone to rabid fan attacks.
mizune wrote:
Please remember that no single group "owns" the right to subtitle a series exclusively.
Amen. That right belongs to the TV studios. We are playing an honor among thieves game here, and I think that should always be kept in perspective:
mizune wrote:
It should be recognized as an opportunity to improve your art.
Oh yes, as I was saying, perspective. I've yet to see a group turn a show into a Shakespearean sonnet. I would love to see that. I do see some people who are very talented in analysis and I've enjoyed reading that, but subs are about function.
Besides, I've yet to hear of someone chaining up a dog to starve to death or cutting sharks in half in the name of honing a skill, so I like to keep anything that called art, in English, at arms length minimum.
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
i have to say....
i'm completely against the one show per season idea. when you have a group with 28 translators, one show isn't enough to give everyone something to do. granted...the ideal situation would be to also work on older shows as well as new shows...but if the translators are really motivated to work on these new shows, and they have the time to do it, is it fair to force them to pick an older show instead of what they'd really like to be doing?
if you start handing out the "no, you can't work on this show" or giving them allotted credits to claim new shows....they will probably still end up subbing these new shows, but just not releasing them here on d-a, and still not picking an older series instead...so d-a loses out on a group that could potentially be releasing really good subs at a good pace that might sustain itself thru the entire series, as opposed to a show that gets "claimed" by a group that either loses translators halfway thru or finds their priorities shifted elsewhere.
some fansub groups are not run like a business. there can be perfectly legit reasons why releases slow down or stop completely. while obviously a group should no start subbing a show if they are not sure they can finish it, a group shouldn't be punished because life intruded upon their hobby.
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: Post Rating: 0
Agree with battlegirlai. Once your fansub group is large enough, you can handle much more dramas. Not only that, multiple dramas per season can rid boredom too.
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) and i'll probably survive even an onslaught of 10 different subtitle threads for one series...
